Foundation (Apple) [** SPOILERS **]

PhiloCypher

This is up there with the ep where Cleon 13th walking the spiral as my favourite ep of the series, all the threads are beginning to come together and are all equally intriguing, which has always been the case.

VinLieger

I'm more and more disappointed with every episode by their portrayal of Demerzel now they've confirmed she is actually Daneel and as this season furthers I cannot see them having her do some kind of heel turn that brings her closer to her character in the books.

Brief_Lives

But Daneel is Derzel in the books, no?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038268#Comment_121038268

Exactly and this season they've turned Demerzel/Daneel into a subservient simpering fvckbot which imo is a travesty vs who the character was in the books along with their motivations and ultimate goals. And before people make assumptions i don't care they gender swapped them its that they have reduced one of the most important and powerful figures from asmimovs books to having no real agency or motivations whatsoever beyond absolute service to empire which again imo is a travesty.

The only potential saving grace will be if its actually Demerzal who is the one deleting the cleon clones memories but again the motivation for doing so is what will really matter if this how it turns out.

PhiloCypher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038643#Comment_121038643

So what you're saying after all the moaning about Demarzel not having enough agency, is that you suspect it will turn out she has agency and is infact puppeteering Empire through assassination, memory deletion and seduction .

It's almost like the writers don't want reveal all their cards.

Note: Apparently ep 9 is a big Demerzal episode so her machinations and possibly her history will likely be a lot clearer after that .

irishguitarlad

Just started watching this recently and have finally caught up to where it is currently. It's a decent watch with some very good characters like Seldon, the 3 brother and Demerzel. For me personally what really brings it down is one of the main protagonists and that's Gaal. I'm not quite sure if its her character or the actor that plays her but I generally find myself flicking through my phone whenever she's on screen as I find her fierce annoying. Anyways, decent series so far 7/10

pixelburp

Hadn't realised I was 2 episodes behind, but caught episode 6; wasn't that gone on it for some reason I couldn't put a finger on, but getting Harry's backstory definitely redeemed it otherwise. Made the end moment all the more worrisome and if

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Indeed it was Harry dying, his last flashing before his eyes. Hopefully not, cos otherwise it was a waste of a good resurrection.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039094#Comment_121039094

No I'm saying her motivations matter and the way it looks right now is that if she is responsible for the memory deletions etc etc then her motivation for that is likely simply following the original orders of Cleon the 1st so she in reality has no agency at all.

R.Daneel in the books was 1 of 2 robots who overcame the 3 laws to create a zeroeth law for themselves to protect humanity above all, to go from a robot literally creating their own agency to the simpering patheticness of the shows demerzel is just sad to me, im still holding out hope the writers might save her from being as bad as she seems but i have less and less every episode.

pixelburp

Mods: ok. I think there's enough confusion and deviation in all the book talk. Not 100% sure how to rule on this but at a minimum I think book detail should be thrown behind some spoiler tags.

Comparisons and criticisms are relevant to the thread but also realise that no more than any other adaptation, plot points from books people haven't read would become spoilers in the TV show etc.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045437#Comment_121045437

Sorry to be clear the backstory I gave for Daneel is from the Robots books which chronologically are thousands of years prior to the foundation ones and from what ive read are not actually licensed for the show, I specifically didnt add any spoilers from the foundation series of books.

corkie

It would be very hard to spoil the show with the books content, because the show has varied so far from the source material!

nachouser

Yeah, the Robot stuff is just retcon city.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048416#Comment_121048416

Yes but someone who's watching the show may want to read the books for the first time...

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048729#Comment_121048729

Yes retcon'ed by Asimov into the 2 prequel novels written years later.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049086#Comment_121049086

Good point, I did use spoilers when mentioned here?

If anyone wants to read the novelettes, I post links earlier in thread here and here. (+ missing one here)

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_Empress

Regarding the ending of last week, + spoilers for this episode: -

Spoiler Warning

So it was just a fake-out of having Salvor and 'Brother Constant' deaths?

So Demerzel is the puppet master of the clones and not the other way round.

"It appears that what is currently happening in Gaal and Salvor’s story takes place prior to what has been happening between Foundation and Empire. Wibbly wobbely time things."

~~ https://www.geekgirlauthority.com/foundation-recap-season-2-episode-8-the-last-empress/

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048416#Comment_121048416

As Nody said: it's to be mindful that book spoilers still spoil the books, and the crossover isn't always obvious to those new to either medium. It'd be the same policy for any other adaptation, and is often the case, book information out behind spoiler tags.

Anyway, Episode 7 and definitely the season's high point so far. Even the Gail & Salvor side story has gained a little bite. All the various threads were gripping throughout, and great to see them overlap. The Day stuff came a little sudden but the seeds were there all the same.

My only gripe was

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That they killed off the physical Harry: why go to the trouble of a resurrection if nothing was done with it? If it was all just to show the hippy tribe as evil, that's a bit rubbish, and a lazy bit of writing.

Slydice

2.8: Oh, that was so good, this show is so fresh! So many stories on the go at the same time and they are all keeping my attention.

Not really sure what is going on with

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Demerzel. Maybe it could be AI controlling the Cleons all along. Maybe original Cleon is somewhere about the place. I dunno. Maybe when she says she protects Empire, she means herself. She could be about to sacrifice Day to wipe out Terminus .. though.. that doesn't feel right. Terminus was there in the future vision. Though.. future can be changed. Arg, so much!

The Mentalics!😯 Jumping body! Yes, that makes sense! Surprised she isn't more powerful though. I dunno. Still I'm half guessing Gaal will takeover her mind rather than it being the other way around. That Hari wanted Gaal to get her powers. Though Salvor to the rescue also seems a possibility, but what's she gonna do, kill the leader and then Gaal takes over maybe. Hmmm..

Ah it's all so much fresh feeling in the story.

Starting to get used to just being thrown a

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time shift. wierd.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061995#Comment_121061995

A time shift? Did I miss something?

This show definitely deserves a rewatch - feel I'm missing so much in a lot of the nuances of the story

Slydice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121062010#Comment_121062010

Well I think what I saw in this episode was..

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Salvor telling Hari on Terminus about Hober Mallow

Which Hari used to send out the message to bring Hober Mallow to him .. which included the burning of the warden played by Holt McCallany in episode 2 of this season

Brief_Lives

do we need spoilers? the thread title says, spoilers within.

So, when we saw Salvor die, she didn't actually die. what did I miss there?

corkie

@fritzelly Confirmed by David S Goyer in the show notes: -

Spoiler Warning

For the benefit of spelling things out; the Gaal/Salvor storyline takes place about two weeks prior to the other storylines. So the moment Salvor communicates with Dr. Seldon in 208 actually syncs up with the moment the Vault incinerated Warden Fount in 202. Hope that made sense!

https://www.davidsgoyer.com/episode-notes-208-the-last-empress/

Note these notes can contain spoilers and discuss difference in the show compared to books, like details about Hari's wife.

silverharp

I watched episode 1 of S02 , and its not gripping me, I read Foundation when I was 15 or 16 and it was probably my favourite series of books as a teenager but just not getting anything from this

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083540#Comment_121083540

Yeah do not expect anything close to the books, they immediately veer wildly off from them.

pixelburp

We should just declare a pact, lol: this show is NOT the books, we'll just forget it's technically an adaptation; it's making lip service regarding certain plot points or characters, but has veered into an alternate universe, broadly doing its own thing.

TBH from what I've read of the novels - for some bizarre reason Asimov remains a big hole of the Pillars of SciFi I haven't read - I can't see how you would adapt the thing without it being cripplingly dull, or prohibitively expensive by dint of its anthological nature.

And this is speaking as someone who has had big problems with the TV show, just on its own merits. Gail & Salvor are almost unbarely irritating characters, and I am so very, very verrrry sick of Chosen One, Monomyth bullshít plots. Forget time-travelling to kill Hitler: at this stage, I might just take out Joseph Campbell instead.

silverharp

I dont even remember the books very well, I couldnt recall a decent summary now, just that it was gripping, Im just not gripped by whatever this is

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/Long_Ago%2C_Not_Far_Away

Roxann Dawson (B'Elanna Torres) directed this episode and previous episode.

This was billed on reddit as the ultimate Demerzel episode, they could have revealed more about her.

https://www.davidsgoyer.com/episode-notes-209-long-ago-not-far-away/

pixelburp

Episode 8 was good stuff: it's a touch Harry Potter but I have always loved the shifting "chroma", those huge painted murals with the moving paint. There's so much in this show's world that are subtle little moments of science magic; it's never overdone, but always a neat little flourish.

Liked the way Hobor Mallow's very presence was explained, all so the Left Hand could use his thumb on the scales, lol. He was a bit annoying at first, still is to be honest, but Mallow is a fun chaotic-good character all the same.

As to the Demerzel thing, a very intriguing little ending that has me wanting more - aka a good cliffhanger that other shows could learn to do (oh hi, Ahsoka).

Still more than a little ticked off about Harry's fate;

Spoiler Warning

All that mystery and eyebrow waggling over his resurrection, just to bump him off at the hands of Chief Hippy Lady? It's a bit shíte and still hoping there was some misdirection going on.

Slydice

2.9: 😯

Wow, I'm just like debating in my head if foundation squeezed a season or a movie into a single episode.

So much happened and yet they carried it off so seamlessly. Brilliant stuff!

Jared Harris, what a great pressence he brings to all his scenes!

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I.. I guess he's still alive then .. 😲 .. like some fake death pill/tech .. or maybe another secret clone.. or.. shur look.. it's foundation, they can do what they like, they seem to keep it on the level.

This future mind reader does come across as a real threat feeling type. All for season 3 I'm guessing at this point.

Next episode is the season finale. Definitely wanting a season 3. This stuff is so high quality and fresh.

pixelburp

The way Jared Harris, as he got older, has come to resemble his father so much, has been kinda spooky at times.

corkie

@Slydice It is not a spoiler to mention 'The Mule'?

"Right at the beginning of episode 1 of the Apple TV+ adaptation of Isaac Asimov’s sci-fi classic Foundation, an opening voiceover from mathematician and Hari Seldon protégé Gaal Dornick (Lou Llobell) mentions several characters and places that will appear in the story that’s about to be told. One of them, mentioned almost matter-of-factly by Dornick, is a name Foundation fans are sure to know: The Mule."

^^ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/foundation-where-is-the-mule/

We also see him in the flash forward in episode 2 this season, which I thought was too early to introduce him.

https://www.slashfilm.com/1331121/foundation-showrunner-david-s-goyer-exclusive-interview/

Above interview from July before the season started. Interesting take from it was

Having said that, I love to set up rules and then say, "How can we break them?" Or, "How can we seem to break them?" And so psychohistory famously can't predict an individual, but I said to the writers' room in season 2 — I don't think this gives too much away — that the Vault is going to name a specific person, that a specific person's name is going to be engraved upon the Vault, which seems to completely contravene the rules of how the Vault and psychohistory works. And I think part of the fun is seeing how that happened over the course of the season, and hopefully that unfolds in a very surprising way.

They handled that in a surprised way with Gaal and Salvor story happening with a 2 week delay.

The other take from the Interview was about plans for Season 3.

corkie

Foundation Season 2 Episode 9 Deep Dive W/Showrunner David S. Goyer ~ Pete Peppers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkPM3NBxB7A

This popped up on my youtube stream, interesting interview.

Goyer has an exit plan for season 4 & 6, If they don't get 8.

Looking forward to the final tomorrow.

https://screenrant.com/foundation-season-3-renewal-release-date-cast-story-everything-we-know/

Rumor is production started in May, but had to stop in July because of strikes, we are probably looking at 26 release for it.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111379#Comment_121111379

2026 Ahhh ffs

VinLieger

There were some fantastic singular scenes in the finale but the larger story is for me just utter trash and incredibly lazy scifi writing. They just keep adding magical technology to solve or fix whatever major storybeat just happened which reduces or negates completely the magnitude of whatever occurred in each prior episode.

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_Myths

https://www.davidsgoyer.com/episode-notes-210-creation-myths/

@VinLieger ... adding magical technology to solve or fix whatever major storybeat ...

Yes some puzzling twists in the final.

Spoiler Warning

Dr Sheldon and The Vault The Tardis

nachouser

The last words of Day: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

corkie

Foundation Season 2 Ending Discussion w/ Showrunner David S. Goyer ~ Pete Peppers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwqftbRhCSE

Have yet to watch this video, having dinner first.

For people who have read the Trilogy, this link has the books summarized by ChatGPT, probably wouldn't make sense to people who haven't?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111379#Comment_121111379

2026? Strikes notwithstanding, that's an insane time between seasons. It'll kill interest and enthusiasm stone dead if there's that long between seasons 2 and 3.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121119305#Comment_121119305

I only listened 30s and it already got things wrong (Gaal was not there to interview Seldon; he was a fellow scientist coming there because he had been offered a job by Seldon). One minute in and once again it got the summary wrong, Gaal knows of the predicted history of the empire as Seldon showed it to him... Sorry but I'd not trust the summary but I'm not going to spend 11 min listening to something getting even the most basic parts wrong.

Agent Coulson

 Jared Harris is just a fantastic actor and a joy to watch on screen.

corkie

@Nody I only listened 30s and it already got things wrong

I assume your referring to ChatGPT summary?

Spoiler Warning

Seldon is the subject of a biography by Gaal Dornick. ~~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Seldon

The best existing authority we have for the details of his life is the biography written by Gaal Dormick who, as a young man, met Seldon two years before the great mathematician's death. ~~ https://asimov.fandom.com/wiki/Hari_Seldon

The summary goes on about his job with Hari.

Edit: - Sorry, I hadn't listened to the 10 minute version, the half hour for Book 1 is better.

Spoilers used for book discussion as requested by a mod earlier in the thread.

Slydice

So, that's season two! Enjoyed that! For my non-booker-reader perspective, this show is such a solid, refreshing scifi.

It's doing some really cool weaving of big, medium and small stories with lots of cool ideas, special effects and action while trying to keep it all simple enough to follow.

2.10: This was a well done wrap up, wind down of the season and setup for season three.

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I did like them getting their terminator 2, no fate, moment figured out. Show might feel a bit odd without Salvor now.

Demerzel killing Dusk and yer wan off-screen. Leaves so much to the imagination! 😯 Though I guess she probably minimised pain.

The fleet being destroyed and the freeing of the navigators felt only a small surprise as I felt it was flagged up enough

The switcheroo for the emporer was setup fine earlier in the season with Hober doing it before.

The Hope name for constant .. oh I liked that.. even if it wasn't her name. Some feeling even if just a fleeting moment.

Big Romeo/Juliet vibes of seeing yer man, Glawen, still alive with the foundation after general, Riose, died. I imagine that could be built on later.

Speaking of vibes, I was feeling a bit reminded of Beneath the Planet of the Apes at the end scenes on the second foundation.

I was thrown a bit at the start with the recap feeling of how Gaal saved Hari. Felt like they had to trade-off that story to fit the season. That was fine for me.

The 152 year jump at the end. Well, certainly feels like they are playing the season three story cards close to their chest.

That's good for me though, I've felt they've done really well from not having read the books.

Future: Yeah, looking forward to season three. Only really going with what I see on the wiki page for it:

The third season began filming in late May 2023 in Prague.[29] Filming was halted on July 14, 2023, due to the 2023 Hollywood labor disputes.[30]

I imagine season three will be

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Where the first foundation re-establishes itself / what it does about empire.

How the empire rebuilds / what it does about foundation.

Demerzel and how the empire corrupted AI adopts/adapts to psychohistory now that it is paying attention.

The girl in the second foundation, the blonde one, I'm guessing with the focus on her, she'll have done some sort of leading and setting up of the second foundation in the future.

Fleshing out this new baddie from the future. Not sure whether I'm placing him as something of an X-Men level Bishop or Cable or Apocalypse level character. Somewhere in between I guess.

So much possiblity.

Oh, and I must say, Ben Daniels as Bel Riose totally felt a big like Daniel Craig this season. Could easily see them acting in a film as brothers / family relative if they wanted.

pixelburp

Episode 9 and woof, wasn't expecting that card to be played; a pretty catastrophic response and decision made, while Demerzel's sad little "Welp, I tried" was a darkly funny moment as the hammers were falling. And you can see why, clearly the wheels are about to fly off for Empire and the big twit can't see it

And aha..

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So Harry was alive all this time, somehow, and never laid a hand to help the other two? Hmmm hope they are least try to explain that one without it being a bit of writing by convenience.

emo72

Feels like I'll have to wait 152 years for the next season of this.

corkie

A reading of the novels popped up on my youtube feed today.

Books narrated by Jack Fox, here is the playlist. And contain chapter links in description.

@Nody as I'm posting, your other comment that ChatGPT got it wrong by Gaal not knowing? :-

Spoiler Warning

First of all him as author of the biography gets mentioned at the very start.

Gaal arrives on Trantor, and is met by Hari in Hotel room, where they discuss Psychohistory and the Fall.

He is detained and questioned the following morning, and denies knowing anything about it, but it is revealed that, they overheard his talk the previous night, and he then admits to it. (Can see where ChatGPT gets it wrong here).

^^^ Spoiler used for book discussion.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135932#Comment_121135932

Yes; that's exactly what's in the book but the ChatGPT did not have the same idea in it's summary if you look at 1:10 of that summary.

Brief_Lives

only 9 episodes in Season 2?

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146376#Comment_121146376

Theres 10

pixelburp

Episode 10 finished and ... Yeah not sure what to make of that. A bit annoying that having teased this new status quo and the fates of some main characters, we ...

Spoiler Warning

whiplash forward again, 150 years where presumably all the non Empire cast are now dead. A shame cos folks like Polly and Constant were good additions and would have liked to see how they get on.

Hopefully with the writers strike looking to be finished, the union getting what it wanted, production on this can start again and we won't actually be looking at 2026 til Season 3.

Shoog

Right to the end the script has been a bit clunky and the plotting a bit forced. It's been enjoyable but it's not great SIFI.

Damien360

Episode 9 was the standout for me. Episode 10 just missed something. Interesting series but overall forgettable for me.