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Scottish independence



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,415 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34

    Well it is an attack on Scottish sovereignty, plain and simple, because social policy is, for the most part, a Scottish parliament competency.

    What the Sunak Government have done is to nix a Bill that they seem to feel will adversely affect UK common law, which says a lot

    At the same time, the Sturgeon administration is no doubt looking to put a few of these Trojan Horses up to London to fight independence by proxy.

    Should be a nice full blown Constitutional crisis by mid-year.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,924 CMod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Presumably the gamble of London was that as the bill regarded a controversial matter, resting social conservativism would trump issues of sovereignty. But then the SNP was operating with the belief it had that popular good will in the first place. So who's right here? And will enough be incensed if there is frustration?

    And once again, it could be a matter that it wasn't that Scots supported the bill en masse - but it was their choice either way and not for London to interfere.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Is Scottish common law the same as English common law?

    I thought there was significant differences between the two legal systems.

  • Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭ Popeleo

    Indeed, Sunak is appeasing the Daily Mail wing of his party with this but it might be short-sighted or just something he has to do against better judgement to silence the headbangers,

    I don't think the SNP will be too upset with the optics of having Westminster veto Scottish laws.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    It was very much expected as the concerns about affecting reserved powers was well publicised. The disappointing thing for me is the the Scottish govt did not even bother to legislate for an independence referendum but chose the trans issue as the battle. Most people have no visibility as to why this bill was the most important thing in Scotland

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    It wasn't the most important thing. It was a tiny little thing that grew in opposition. It's a nothing issue.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭ CrabRevolution

    It might be a small issue but the particulars of what issue finally caused this (Uk gov blocking legislation) to happen do matter. Polls show that the trans bill is not very popular even in Scotland.

    I don't see the UK governments actions causing many to rush back to supporting the Union, but at the same time I don't think this will cause as big an uproar in Scotland as some are expecting because for a lot of people the central cause (the trans bill) just isn't something they support.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭ Grassey

    Whether people support the bill or not, people will likely fall into 2 camps 1) isn't it great we've someone protecting us from our domestic legislature going nuts or 2) how dare someone else tell us what to do.

    Content of the cause becomes irrelevant as the fight is now framed differently.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,924 CMod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Exactly. I've no doubt the bill had marginal support in the first instance, but by and large Scots may find it either a useful instance of London acting as a legislative backstop ... or yet another example of London interfering with Holyrood's ability to govern.

    I've no idea how Sunak is seen North of the Border, and I presume he's no less loved than Johnson ever was, but he'd want to tread carefully all the same. He's probably lucky that the Scots probably won't protest en masse over this ... but if it shifted the needle another 0.5% or 1% towards pro-independence? This is how you wake up one day and 2/3s want out of the union.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,924 CMod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    A small creep up in support in this poll, equating to 54% support for Independence when excluding the Don't Knows.

    So no major swing, and with those Don't Knows shrinking you'd wonder how or if one persuades the No's to shift vote (or indeed vice versa).

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    Two polls came out on the same day with inverse results

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭ Water John

    Comparing two different polls doesn't really work, because of different methodologies applied. One looks at the trends within a poll over time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ satguy

    While Scotland did vote to remain in the EU, the Scots are wrong if they think this is grounds for another Scottish independence referendum.

    Because NI also voted to remain in the EU, and Westminster know that it would be the chink in the armor SF are waiting for, and will keep that door well and truly shut..

    Scotland had its chance and they passed,, Now they need to move on. Plus the EU do not want a hard border with England, and so might never let an independent Scotland join.

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,379 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    The Scots elected a Holyrood parliament that has a majority of pro-independence representatives, so it doesn't look like they are ready to move on. Are you seriously suggesting if the support for independence keeps rising, they have to remain stuck in a union that they don't consent to being in? It's not tenable in the long-term.

    The point about the EU is pure speculation. If a way can be found to keep the British border in Ireland open, then the British border in Britain should be workable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,864 ✭✭✭ AllForIt

    Keir Starmer has stated he believes that 16 (previously 18) is too young to attain a gender recognition cert. That's one aspect of the bill.

    Is he virtue signalling and appeasing the Daily Mail readership as well?

    The bill has been very contentious with one SNP minister resigning over it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭ Water John

    Ireland, the original breakaway from the empire, went for independence based on the majority of elected MPs in Ireland representing the views of the people.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    and Scottish unionists previously stated that would be sufficient grounds. When those grounds were met, they moved the goalposts and moved them again when the grounds were met again

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭ Fr Tod Umptious

    It comes as no surprise to me anyway that the gender debate is having an adverse effect on the popularity of independence and the SNP.

    It's very much the opposite of what some people here expected when Westminster decided to envoke Section 35.

    Support for independence down to 47%

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭ donaghs

    Not everyone who disagree with Sturgeon on her gender crusade is a "Daily Mail" reactionary. e.g. Alex Salmond.

    Nicola Sturgeon’s gender ‘nonsense’ has set Scottish independence back years, says Alex Salmond (

    I think the Isla Bryson case has given more people the courage to speak out,

    Nicola Sturgeon: Rapist Isla Bryson 'almost certainly' faking trans status - BBC News

    Which leads to another question, maybe one for the IMHO forum, does declaring your gender give full recognition of this? Unless Nicola Sturgeon thinks your faking it?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,740 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    Sturgeon is toast... she has enabled the SNP to be full of self ID zealots whilst ignoring independence. A lot of genuine independence supporters have been duped

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,379 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    Salmond's popularity ratings make Sturgeon seem like Billy Connolly. No surprise that he's using this issue as a point of attack since he's got little else. Worth pointing out too that we've had the Scottish gender law in this country for years and society hasn't collapsed. Almost as if it's a concocted culture war on the part of desperate unionists...

    I've yet to hear a compelling alternative put forward by the Sturgeon critics for what the strategy ought to be to achieve independence, and certainly nothing that would garner 50+% of the population.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 85,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    The EU has lots of hard borders. Including the one in Gibraltar that's managed jointly by Spain.

    It's been done to death but if push came to shove the England-Scotland border is better geographically defined and has fewer crossing so it's more like the EU's other hard borders than in NI.

    NI is a special case since most people are de facto EU citizens.

    Besides Scotland would be a good fit for EFTA membership. If they could grandfather the Common Travel Area in as a mini-Schengen, there wouldn't be much/ need for a hard border. They could continue to peg to sterling, might be cheaper as they wouldn't need to hold 100% reserves like they do today. - just change the bits that say UK with Scotland

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss

    Nicola Sturgeon resigns, in breaking news.

    Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister - BBC News

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,379 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    Very saddened to hear this. The level of criticism she was getting of late was immense and I imagine that takes a big toll. I think her loss will be felt massively. She had the personal touch, and is far better known than any of the potential SNP successors. She steered Scotland well through the Covid crisis. Must be a real chance now that the party descends into in-fighting given the amount of bickering the last few months, and with upcoming plans to set out the independence strategy that could prove divisive.

    Feels like a great day for the unionists. They're gleeful all over social media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭ facehugger99

    Fantastic news. Sturgeon is a dangerous ideologue.

    Good riddance to her.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭ Sudden Valley

    Probably the right time. 8 years is a long time to be in charge and Scotland is no closer to independence. Not many leaders get to leave graciously so I think it is the right call.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭ Brussels Sprout

    Bit of a shock. I know she got terrible abuse online and the right wing press hated her. Right now the Daily Mail are covering the story by picturing her and that controversial prisoner side by side on their front page.

    One last kick on the way out basically. I'd expect nothing more from those vermin.

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