Scottish independence

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246475#Comment_120246475

I am actually British, - believe it or not.

I am speaking about the MPs voted into Westminster, if that makes sense. I hope it does.

Sam Russell

@tinytobe

You are talking nonsense.

A General Election (not a 'Federal election' - whatever that is) can be fought on any basis. Parties publish a manifesto to get a mandate for their policies should they be elected.

Running Scotland with the restrictions that the devolved nature of their assembly is next to impossible. With Westminster starving them of require funds. And that starvation is studied to make life as difficult as possible for a party in control in Scotland that they despise.

She did well, and congratulations to her to bail out early before her enemies destroy her and her legacy.

hotmail.com

Many parts of Scotland are in a dreadful state. And covid deaths in Scotland were enormous.

It seems her immense charisma, superior intelligence and the general anti Tory Scottish culture, disguised her from genuine critical analysis.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246254#Comment_120246254

What's a federal election ?

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246683#Comment_120246683

What does the first bit even mean? Scotland is in the UK so Covid response was generally UK wide so what do you think Scotland could have done differently?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246702#Comment_120246702

Health is devolved so Scotland had it's own rules in regard to covid.

For some reason, she is getting covid acclaim which is confusing given the enormous covid death figures.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246717#Comment_120246717

She gets acclaim for being seen to handle Covid better than England which is the metric most British people use.

Probability doesn't look good from our point of view because we are seen to handle it better than both but from the sht show UK point of view she done well.

Health is only partially devolved by the way.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246741#Comment_120246741

Well this isn't what most people use. Perhaps you like to compare everything with England but surely most logical people can make judgements not grounded in comparisons with England?

The covid deaths were enormous and there is a scandal over covid positive patients being moved back to nursing homes.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246717#Comment_120246717

Health is devolved and works within the framework and budget of the UK. Scotland is not an independent country so so what do you think Scotland could have done differently?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246776#Comment_120246776

I'm just wondering what's all the covid acclaim about given the enormous death toll.

It's baffling from the outside.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246783#Comment_120246783

The acclaim is in the communication compared to the UK govt

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246791#Comment_120246791

But who cares about that if the death toll is so gigantic.

Surely the Scots aren't that silly they would just only compare themselves with Boris or whoevers the PM in London.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246815#Comment_120246815

Scotland is in the UK and the death toll is similar to the rest of the UK so why do you think Scotland would have a hugely reduced death toll? What do you think Scotland could have done differently?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243276#Comment_120243276

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246831#Comment_120246831

If Scotland could not have done anything differently as you state why are people like the other poster I'm quoting saying things like...

She steered Scotland well through the Covid crisis.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246924#Comment_120246924

It still took strong leadership and she didn't fail.

Around two-thirds are happy with how the Scottish Government has dealt with communicating decisions and the vaccine rollout. More than half were also satisfied with Holyrood’s handling of the imposition of lockdown and re-opening.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/08/while-sturgeon-takes-decisive-action-on-covid-johnson-just-blusters

https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-ap-top-news-international-news-business-europe-539e94bc2482711a3ee491541d274792

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246759#Comment_120246759

It is what most people use in the UK where Scotland is.

Care to throw out a few links about how Scotland done so badly compared to the rest of the UK.

What bad decisions did Sturgeon make in relation to Covid ?

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246924#Comment_120246924

In relation to the rest of the UK - you cannot compare Scotland, a dependent country, with independent countries

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247093#Comment_120247093

This happens all the time with NI too. Posters compare it to how Ireland is run without taking into account the fundamental differences. This is either ignorance of the facts or willful ignorance.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246430#Comment_120246430

Tories...

rock22

It is impossible to know if Sturgeon's resignation sets back the goal to independence or if a new leader adds momentum to it. There was fear that Alex Salmond's resignation would have done the same think.

The problem is that there is clearly a significant section of the population who are weeded to the union or fear independence. I have seen posts here which suggests this is done to English migration into Scotland but i am not too sure how much that accounts for it. As it happens, i have Scottish blood and have a lot of relatives there. I would have classed them as amiable to independence having strong links to Ireland and fully aware of our history. But there is little passion amongst them , either way, around independence.

I could be wrong, because I know I am only exposed to a small cohort of Scottish people, but two things strike me , in comparison to Ireland, the place I know best. One is that there seems to be a disconnect between politics and ordinary live, a view often expressed about politicians as "they need to get on with it" whatever "it" is . i.e. that political matter shouldn't bother the "ordinary man in the street" . I think that is a sentiment shared across much of the UK, I have been told similar by English people, and it might be a feature of the FPTP election system.

The second issue , when they do engage, is a high degree of caution around the future, almost wanting guarantees that they would be better off being independent. But it is impossible to reassure on that point. Independence for Scotland means the Scottish people being able to make their own decisions free of Westminster. But Scottish politicians would be capable of making bad decision too. It is the very concept that the decisions made would be their own, and not the decisions of politicians in Westminster, that needs to be promoted more. Scotland might decide they want to remain in NATO or they might decide they don't. They might decide they want to apply for membership of the EU or they might decide not. They might decide to align their economy closely with a post Brexit Britain or they might not. But the decision would be theirs. And it is that idea , that their destiny would be in their own hands, that hasn't been sold sufficiently to the Scottish people.

For whatever reason, I feel Nicola Sturgeon has stalled and it probably is the right time to go. The resignation might have been done a little better , perhaps setting out a timetable over the next year , perhaps after elections, when she might step down. If, as reported, she did make a snap decision after attending a funeral, then it doesn't reflect too well on her . I suspect, like most decisions, that multiple factors were at play. She seems to feel that a new leader might inject momentum into the independence battle.

Either way, if the fight for independence cannot survive the resignation of one politician, two if you want to add Salmond, then it was never going anywhere anyway.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246547#Comment_120246547

I think you're the one with the nonsense.

I am glad Sturgeon decided to leave. I personally can't see anything Sturgeon ever did for Scotland other than talk Scots into false hopes about independence and sweep real urgent matters under the carpet. Her record of domestic politics is abysmal, there are social issues in Scotland, only her approval ratings are high, but that's about it.

She left for a reason, as she can't succeed at anything, and at least she decided to go on her own terms, not on somebody others terms.

She also left with some note of urgency leaving no planned successor for her valued independence dream. And a police investigation about fraud regarding campaign contributions is certainly something she doesn't want to be confronted with.

As to the next general election, she stated that she would make that as a de facto independence referendum, if a 2nd referendum is not approved. She stated that after the supreme court's decision. It's the most stupid thing I've ever heard out of her mouth, and as somebody with a law degree should know that that's total nonsense.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247251#Comment_120247251

She was "terrible, useless at everything"

But her approval ratings were constantly high as were SNP voting results.

Obviously the Scottish are too stupid to understand.

Some amount of unbacked up masturbatory bllsht being talked the last few days.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247093#Comment_120247093

But I'm not comparing it with independent countries.

I'm pointing out (in general, not aimed at you specifically) that some people give her a lot of credit for her handling of COVID, yet when negatives are brought up the claim is that there was nothing they could do, it was London's fault.

It just another example of how similar to Brexit Scottish independence is.

Everything bad about Brexit is blamed on the EU, everything bad about Scotland is blamed on London.

And this is where she became unstuck.

She could not blame the trans prison debacle on London, it was all Scotland's doing.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247213#Comment_120247213

I would have classed them as amiable to independence having strong links to Ireland and fully aware of our history. But there is little passion amongst them , either way, around independence.

But Ireland's history is not Scotland's history.

I think Irish people look at Scottish independence through Irish independence eyes and fail to see the difference.

There is none of the class and especially none of the religious difference that singled Ireland out from the rest of the UK back in the early 1900s.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247292#Comment_120247292

Schroedinger's Politician: both useless at everything while simultaneously polling well with the public at every juncture (even in England at that one point!). By all accounts, it feels more like personal beliefs WRT the Trans Bill are colouring assessment of Sturgeon's tenure. By all accounts, if one didn't support the bill that's one's personal preferences, but I've yet to see any sober evidence the public's support was waning - or even that the Trans Bill was the Final Straw here. I'd imagine things like the recent Bin Strikes would be playing in people's minds when thinking of balls dropped by Holyrood, than gender recognition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247326#Comment_120247326

How did she come 'unstuck'?

She chose her own time of resignation and even surprised her most ardent critics. Sure there will be those who will say it was about this and that, but detractors could do that about anytime in her career.

Interesting questions being asked about this this AM - Merkel, Ardern, May, Truss, Sturgeon etc - do female leaders know better than males when it is the right time to go?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247403#Comment_120247403

You sound like Bertie back in 2008 when he stepped down all of a sudden as more and more revelations came out in the tribunals.

He tried to convince everyone that his registration had nothing to do with the revelations and he had planned to go then anyway.

She quit because her handling of the gender recognition bill backfired spectacularly on her.

Instead of using it and Westminster's envoking of Section 35 as another independence drum to beat she got caught up in the reality of what the fall out would be when you allowed people to self identify their gender.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247353#Comment_120247353

But I never suggested it was. I suggest you re-read my post.

But, on the points your raise, I am not too sure that class and religion do not play a part

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247403#Comment_120247403

May and Truss were pushed because they were useless. Very different to the other 3.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247326#Comment_120247326

Not the same at all. Not even in the slightest.

Westminster (England) actually really really does control Scotland. The EU never ever controlled the UK.