Scottish independence

I often see Irish independence as a blueprint or a partial blueprint to Scottish independence. One major difference would have been that the EU didn't exist at that time, nor was mainland Europe the main trading partner? Thus the motivations for independence were different also the "behaviour" or lack of it, of the English in Ireland.

I also find it interesting that from 1921 all the way to 1948 people born in the Republic of Ireland would have had the right to a British passport. The possible reason for this, was that British citizenship law was different, it was British subject law? If it was back then possible for British citizens to vote as an absentee, this would have applied as well to holders of British passports in the Republic of Ireland, wouldn't it?

Today Irish citizens are entitled to vote in UK elections only, once they live in the UK and are on the electoral register. However Irish citizens residing in the Republic of Ireland are clearly not entitled to vote in UK elections.

OK, citizenship.

First, it’s wrong of tinytobe to say that “the SNP would insist that in an independent Scotland, it's people would still be British citizens”. The SNP says no such thing. On the contrary, the 2014 white paper explicitly envisaged the creation of a separate Scottish citizenship. Whether people who received Scottish citizenship would lose their UK citizenship would be a matter for the UK and the SNP’s whole schtick is that that what the UK would do about that would be a matter for the UK.

Precedent: What happened when the Irish Free State broke away from the UK? It was a simpler time; there was a single status “British subject” which was conferred on everyone within the King’s dominions; the Irish Free State remained part of the King’s dominions (like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc) so denizens of the Irish Free State remained British subjects (like Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders) etc. There was, at that time, no separate Australian, Canadian, etc citizenship.

There was, though, a citizenship of the Irish Free State - Irish law provided for this. But the UK authorities took the view that this was of relevance only within the Irish Free State. Someone from the IFS was a British subject and would be treated by the UK authorities like any other British subject. They might also be a citizen of the IFS, but this was of no relevance to the UK authorities.

But things are different today. The overarching concept of “British subject” no longer exists. Each of the countries of the Commonwealth has its own separate citizenship - citizens of the UK are “British citizens”. The term “Commonwealth citizen” exists to refer to someone who has the citizenship of any Commonwealth country, but it’s not a hugely significant status within the UK, and it has no significance at all outside the UK, even in other Commonwealth countries.

What about British colonies (or “British Overseas Territories”, as they are now called)? Not being sovereign states, they don’t have their own citizenship. Denizens of these territories have some class of British citizenship. When a colony becomes independent, a new citizenship is created, and the independence legislation will provide for who gets the new citizenship and who gets to keep British citizenship. This happened a lot between the 1960s and the 1980s, and the practice was usually something like this; taking the independence of Jamaica as an example, if you were a British citizen because of your connection with Jamaica, then on independence (1) you became a citizen of Jamaica and (2) you lost your British citizenship unless your father or your paternal grandfather was born in the UK, in which case you [were probably white and] could retain your British citizenship (as well as being a Citizen of Jamaica).

Scotland leaving the UK is not quite the same as a colony becoming independent, but if the UK decides to apply the same thinking then Scots citizens will able to retain British Citizenship if they have a connection with rump-UK - e.g. born there, resident there at the date of Scottish independence, parent or grandparent born there. 

In addition, the UK might very well grant Scots Citizens the same status in the UK as Irish citizens have - i.e. not foreigners, right of residence, right to vote, etc. The SNP has made it clear they would seek this, and would reciprocate, just as Ireland does. And they would seek to have Scotland participate in the UK-IRL Common Travel Area. Those both look like realistic and sensible proposals to me, and I would be surprised if the UK demurred.

Well it is an attack on Scottish sovereignty, plain and simple, because social policy is, for the most part, a Scottish parliament competency.

What the Sunak Government have done is to nix a Bill that they seem to feel will adversely affect UK common law, which says a lot

At the same time, the Sturgeon administration is no doubt looking to put a few of these Trojan Horses up to London to fight independence by proxy.

Should be a nice full blown Constitutional crisis by mid-year.

Indeed, Sunak is appeasing the Daily Mail wing of his party with this but it might be short-sighted or just something he has to do against better judgement to silence the headbangers,

I don't think the SNP will be too upset with the optics of having Westminster veto Scottish laws.

It wasn't the most important thing. It was a tiny little thing that grew in opposition. It's a nothing issue.

Whether people support the bill or not, people will likely fall into 2 camps 1) isn't it great we've someone protecting us from our domestic legislature going nuts or 2) how dare someone else tell us what to do.

Content of the cause becomes irrelevant as the fight is now framed differently.

Comparing two different polls doesn't really work, because of different methodologies applied. One looks at the trends within a poll over time.

The Scots elected a Holyrood parliament that has a majority of pro-independence representatives, so it doesn't look like they are ready to move on. Are you seriously suggesting if the support for independence keeps rising, they have to remain stuck in a union that they don't consent to being in? It's not tenable in the long-term.

The point about the EU is pure speculation. If a way can be found to keep the British border in Ireland open, then the British border in Britain should be workable.

Ireland, the original breakaway from the empire, went for independence based on the majority of elected MPs in Ireland representing the views of the people.

It comes as no surprise to me anyway that the gender debate is having an adverse effect on the popularity of independence and the SNP.

It's very much the opposite of what some people here expected when Westminster decided to envoke Section 35.

Support for independence down to 47%

Sturgeon is toast... she has enabled the SNP to be full of self ID zealots whilst ignoring independence. A lot of genuine independence supporters have been duped

Very saddened to hear this. The level of criticism she was getting of late was immense and I imagine that takes a big toll. I think her loss will be felt massively. She had the personal touch, and is far better known than any of the potential SNP successors. She steered Scotland well through the Covid crisis. Must be a real chance now that the party descends into in-fighting given the amount of bickering the last few months, and with upcoming plans to set out the independence strategy that could prove divisive.

Feels like a great day for the unionists. They're gleeful all over social media.

What a hill to end up dying on. To take on the UK government over a marginal issue and legislative change that had little support at home was stupidity in the extreme.

That foray into identity politics may have set independence back years. If you're going to take a stand on something in the knowledge that you'll fail, you ought to be sure your supporters are behind you.

She was an able politician but was an odd and ultimately politically fatal misstep to make.

Bit of a shock. I know she got terrible abuse online and the right wing press hated her. Right now the Daily Mail are covering the story by picturing her and that controversial prisoner side by side on their front page.

One last kick on the way out basically. I'd expect nothing more from those vermin.

Is it? She was literally asked was that why she was resigning and she said it wasn't. Who's to say she didn't look at someone like Jacinda Adern and be inspired by her deciding to walk away. She's been in her job 3 years longer than Adern was in hers after all. Who's to say that it's not because of a whole host of other reasons.

I am not surprised she is going but I am surprised at the timing. She announced a special SNP conference a few months ago to 'discuss' next steps on the plebiscite election after the Supreme Court threw out the case. That conference is 4-5 weeks away and now she resigns. I think it is more likely to to do with the missing £600k from independence supporters than she is knackered and does not have the gumption to carry on.

You actually believe that? How naïve!

She left because she could see she could read the room. With the trans solo run, she setthe actual goal of her party - independence, back years. That matters and certainly upset a lot of party folk. Like Arden though, she jumped before she was pushed.

All that trans stuff was a complete own goal and has pointed out to Scots that having a Westminster backstop could be useful for protecting themselves from ideologically driven policy that they don't support in Holyrood. It's just another stick to beat independence with, and worst of all one that Sturgeon conjured up herself.

I think that there were more than just a couple unknowns about Scottish Independence. From currency, to citizenship, the funding of the NHS Scotland, military and defense, NATO membership and how easily or "seamlessly" as it was promised Scotland would be part of the EU.

Regardless of what Sturgeon and the SNP claimed or said, I wouldn't believe a word, that an independent Scotland would get to keep the British pound or be able to retain British citizenship, if they decided to leave. The reality is that leaving really means leaving and everything you've had before will be gone. It's the same lie, as Brexit UK, getting to keep all the freedoms with the EU, but at the same time leaving the EU.

Sturgeon has a lot of domestic issues, from the Scottish NHS to education, she did not succeed at the first independence referendum, and was unable to get a 2nd one.

The odd thing is, that Sturgeon was rather popular and liked in Scotland, but at the same time she failed to deliver at nearly everything else.