Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe.

The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.

Yea and if I remember right Munster didn't let Dillane go, he was just offered a higher contract by Connacht.

connemara man

awec wrote: »

Yea and if I remember right Munster didn't let Dillane go, he was just offered a higher contract by Connacht.

He was offered sub academy in Munster and academy in Connacht by Nigel Carolan who had coached him Ireland underage aswell and said you're too good for a sub academy, come to Connacht and keep working with me

aloooof

connemara man wrote: »

He was offered sub academy in Munster and academy in Connacht by Nigel Carolan who had coached him Ireland underage aswell and said you're too good for a sub academy, come to Connacht and keep working with me

EDIT: nevermind, I didn't read your post properly!

Zzippy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe.

The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.

I think Conor Fitzgerald will be another one. Early days, but he's shown huge potential and ability to adapt to a higher level every time he's been asked. Stephen has a lot of potential too.

Richie_Rich89

thomond2006 wrote: »

Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe.

The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.

Ehhhh ...it is hard to name anybody. The Fitzgerald brothers are doing well at Connacht, but early days...

I'd imagine it's difficult for players who are passed over and essentially get the message they're not good enough. How many people in Tadhg Beirne's shoes when he was cut by Leinster would give up then and get on with life after rugby?

It's probably fair to say that players coming out of the Munster academy aren't as skilful and as well equipped technically to play expansive rugby as players from the Leinster academy. So, they're not as attractive to other teams in the market for players, and ensuring they're ready for senior action depends more on the head coach. Munster didn't really have a skills-based approach between Penney leaving and Larkham coming in...

There was a thread on Planet Rugby forum a few months ago about two highly-rated age-grade coaches cut from their positions in the RFU amid budget cuts. It got me thinking that hiring them to oversee the academy is the type of thing Munster should look to do if they want more technically-proficient, smarter players filtering up to the senior team.

It is more difficult for Munster. But at the same time they haven't been making the best fist of it. Would it really come as a surprise if Healy, Josh Wycherley, Casey and Hodnett were never really brought through properly?

Shefwedfan

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Argue over how I phrased it if you want to.

I quite specifically referred to the three-quarter line, saying the Leinster situation in these positions was similar to how Munster operate for every position.

Plus, some of the players playing for other teams might be because of a lack of development to senior team level at Leinster - Tom Farrell, Tadhg Beirne. Obviously the academy and under-age structures deserve credit in those cases.

I'd make a distinction between development to academy level at Leinster and development to the senior team, which depends on the first team coach actually selecting you. I've no issue with the former.

You seem to have an issue with any NIQ. You keep going on about COB development but when T'eo was in the Leinster team you had an issue with him.....more or less the exact same stuff you are coming out with him



T'eo left and now you are after Tomane.....after the discussion was shut down on the Leinster thread for the BS it is you brought it onto the Ireland thread....

Shefwedfan

g

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Ehhhh ...it is hard to name anybody. The Fitzgerald brothers are doing well at Connacht, but early days...

I'd imagine it's difficult for players who are passed over and essentially get the message they're not good enough. How many people in Tadhg Beirne's shoes when he was cut by Leinster would give up then and get on with life after rugby?

It's probably fair to say that players coming out of the Munster academy aren't as skilful and as well equipped technically to play expansive rugby as players from the Leinster academy. So, they're not as attractive to other teams in the market for players, and ensuring they're ready for senior action depends more on the head coach. Munster didn't really have a skills-based approach between Penney leaving and Larkham coming in...

There was a thread on Planet Rugby forum a few months ago about two highly-rated age-grade coaches cut from their positions in the RFU amid budget cuts. It got me thinking that hiring them to oversee the academy is the type of thing Munster should look to do if they want more technically-proficient, smarter players filtering up to the senior team.

It is more difficult for Munster. But at the same time they haven't been making the best fist of it. Would it really come as a surprise if Healy, Josh Wycherley, Casey and Hodnett were never really brought through properly?

Beirne was given a full time contract with Leinster......

connemara man

aloooof wrote: »

EDIT: nevermind, I didn't read your post properly!

I have been told I don't punctuate properly so that doesn't help

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It is more difficult for Munster. But at the same time they haven't been making the best fist of it. Would it really come as a surprise if Healy, Josh Wycherley, Casey and Hodnett were never really brought through properly?

I think the bigger point is we didn't have anyone of the calibre of Healy, Wycherley, Casey or Hodnett to bring through. Which, as thomond mentioned, is an entirely different issue.

Take the academy players for the 2013/14 season, for example, which I've listed below. I've highlighted those still with Munster. Johnny Holland likely would be too, but for injury.

Year 3: Shane Buckley (Wing forward/21/Garryowen).

Year 2: Brian Haugh (Scrumhalf/20/Young Munster), Jonathan Holland (Outhalf/21/Cork Con), Harry McNulty (Centre/20/Young Munster), Darren Moroney (Winger/22/UL Bohs), Ryan Murphy (Back row/20/Dolphin), Jack O’Donoghue (Back row/19/UL Bohs), Darren Sweetnam (Fullback/20/UCC).

Year 1: Jack Cullen (Scrumhalf/18/TBC), Niall Horan (Prop/19/Shannon), David Johnston (Fullback/19/UL Bohs), Gearoid Lyons (Outhalf/18/CCC), Darren O’Shea (Lock/21/Dolphin), Greg O’Shea (Winger/18/CCC), Sean McCarthy (Lock/19/Shannon), John Madigan (Lock/18/Dolphin), Rory Scannell (Centre/19/Dolphin).

Is there anyone else there you think should have been massively pushing for starts?

John Madigan is now with Massy in the Pro D2.
David Johnston was rated, but he was with Ealing Trailfinders last season.
Wikipedia tells me Sean McCarthy is with Fiammo Oro (?).

Vinnie222

Shefwedfan wrote: »

g


Beirne was given a full time contract with Leinster......

Beirne wasn't given a full time contract with Leinster, he was let go

Shefwedfan

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Beirne wasn't given a full time contract with Leinster, he was let go

He was...https://www.ultimaterugby.com/tadhg-beirne


It was mentioned on one of the podcast recently as well he was given a procontract with Leinster......maybe I am wrong

Vinnie222

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He was...https://www.ultimaterugby.com/tadhg-beirne


It was mentioned on one of the podcast recently as well he was given a procontract with Leinster......maybe I am wrong

Beirne himself said it . I think it was with a interview with Cian Tracey

shootermacg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He was...https://www.ultimaterugby.com/tadhg-beirne


It was mentioned on one of the podcast recently as well he was given a procontract with Leinster......maybe I am wrong

Yes, you are wrong. He was released.

kingofthekong

thomond2006 wrote: »

Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe.

The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.

Munster aren't completely without blame as to why they arent producing any players its not all the IRFU's fault....

Munster have had plenty of talented U20s and not developed them very effectively...

JJ could barely get any gametime and went to Northampton, Bill Johnston left

before that they didn't give contracts to Ben Betts, Kelvin Brown, Frank Bradshaw Ryan, Paddy Ryan

They now have opted for using Botha, Holloway, Cloete who are blocking guys like O'sullivan, Hodnett and Coombes. Jack Stafford hasnt been given a sniff of the first team bar a couple minutes.

Munster have regularly chosen imports over youth - importing young south africans like Knox and More over young academy guys...

Sure they may not be getting ideal treatment from IRFU but they've done very little to give their young players a chance at 1st XV rugby

Former Former

kingofthekong wrote: »

Munster aren't completely without blame as to why they arent producing any players its not all the IRFU's fault....

Munster have had plenty of talented U20s and not developed them very effectively...

JJ could barely get any gametime and went to Northampton, Bill Johnston left

before that they didn't give contracts to Ben Betts, Kelvin Brown, Frank Bradshaw Ryan, Paddy Ryan

But which of those players has gone elsewhere and proved Munster wrong? None.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

before that they didn't give contracts to Ben Betts, Kelvin Brown, Frank Bradshaw Ryan, Paddy Ryan

That sounds like a pretty weak argument to me, tbh. Are you suggesting these guys should have been given contracts?

kingofthekong wrote: »

They now have opted for using Botha, Holloway, Cloete who are blocking guys like O'sullivan, Hodnett and Coombes.

Munster have regularly chosen imports over youth - importing young south africans like Knox and More over young academy guys...

Sure they may not be getting ideal treatment from IRFU but they've done very little to give their young players a chance at 1st XV rugby

Hollway will be gone after Saturday. Cloete will qualify for Ireland next year (he's among the last of the 3-year project players). Botha will be the only player on Munster's books who won't be available to Ireland.

Add to that Shane Daly, Fineen Wycherly and Calvin Nash have all had a good number of starts and minutes this season. Hopefully the likes of both Coombes', Casey etc. will start to pick up some more gametime also.

awec

Botha is also a fairly average player so if he’s blocking anyone then really they’re not up to much anyway.

tryagain

Marmion is great player he never let Ireland down so Connacht now have two internationl scrumhalves tied down next AKI

Shefwedfan

tryagain wrote: »

Marmion is great player he never let Ireland down so Connacht now have two internationl scrumhalves tied down next AKI

In reality it would be better if Blade left now and they kept Marmion plus another young 9.....

I’m sure I could nominate a destination, you might say cherry pick him for a club

tryagain

Connacht least we all forget were to be disbanded but won the pro14 years later .For Irish rugby to thrive we need Connacht to thrive but the IRFU still consider them second class the need to pump more money west and quit the BS for us to win a WC we need a strong Connacht not trying to snatch their best players if that the case Rory Best should have been playing rugby for leinster and maybe Munsters best players should move too (Henshaw ) treated like second class and only a few years ago winning pro14

Shefwedfan

tryagain wrote: »

Connacht least we all forget were to be disbanded but won the pro14 years later .For Irish rugby to thrive we need Connacht to thrive but the IRFU still consider them second class the need to pump more money west and quit the BS for us to win a WC we need a strong Connacht not trying to snatch their best players if that the case Rory Best should have been playing rugby for leinster and maybe Munsters best players should move too (Henshaw ) treated like second class and only a few years ago winning pro14

The IRFU are pumping more money than ever into Connacht. They also have to make sure they don't bring the whole thing down.



In 2017/18 season after the bumper season of winning 6 nations and the Leinster wins. They produced a profit of 1.8m I think. This was unexpected as they had hosted the Women WC and also the money to bid on the WC

2018/19 they made 3 million profit, mostly from 10 year ticket sales and 25m from land sale.

This money is all pumped into the domestic game. Across all teams

So where exactly is all the additional money coming from to pump into Connacht?

In regards to Henshaw, he was offered the same contract. He could have stayed with Connacht or went to any province. He picked Leinster for reasons including a lot of personal ones. So the Henshaw example is not really relevant

tryagain

Montpellier: €24.2m spend beaten by Connacht what warriors . Feed them some more money and let them keep their best players money talks nowdays and Ireland can win a WC the talent we have on this island in fact I am sure we can .

Former Former

tryagain wrote: »

Connacht least we all forget were to be disbanded

No, they weren't.

irishbucsfan

snotboogie

Former Former wrote: »

But which of those players has gone elsewhere and proved Munster wrong? None.

A career peak is not pre ordained, if a player isn't getting opportunites or proper development between 18 and 24, and then moves to a club with opportunities, he won't suddenly start playing to his potential. Recovering from lost years with limited game time early in a career takes a particular attitude and skill set.

Jump_In_Jack

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In reality it would be better if Blade left now and they kept Marmion plus another young 9.....

I’m sure I could nominate a destination, you might say cherry pick him for a club

So would it be better if Andrew Porter also left?

And where do you want them to go?

Zzippy

Former Former wrote: »

No, they weren't.

The IRFU committee proposed shutting down Connacht as a professional rugby team. Perhaps you have a different definitiion of "disbanded"?

Riskymove

Zzippy wrote: »

The IRFU committee proposed shutting down Connacht as a professional rugby team. Perhaps you have a different definitiion of "disbanded"?

the usual hindsight defence is that it was merely proposed by a committee and that the IRFU never actually voted to do it (and of course the position now is that they would not have voted for it)

It was dropped from even being discussed/voted on following the backlash

Zzippy

Riskymove wrote: »

the usual hindsight defence is that it was merely proposed by a committee and that the IRFU never actually voted to do it (and of course the position now is that they would not have voted for it)

It was dropped from even being discussed/voted on following the backlash

IRFU, c. 2003:

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

So would it be better if Andrew Porter also left?

And where do you want them to go?