Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Bridge93

Last years u20s and this years team hopefully indicate ulster and Munster have begun to get their **** together in producing players again.
I don’t see how anyone can say we don’t know if Munster got worse at talent production. Even ignoring Leinster, Munster won Heineken cups with teams comprised of far more local guys than are currently in the squad. A lot of very strong prospects in both provinces based on last two seasons and Connacht has one or two of the best prospects themselves the last few seasons

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you say so......

PS the point was not the number of Munster players in the ireland WCsquad, it’s the number of Munster born, they included Cronin in that analysis as well....only 1, Scannell, is under 30

This is not me, as mentioned this was a topic on demented mole podcast

I literally said “Munster need to do more” in my post, acknowledging this.

But Munster deserve some credit for the development of players like Conway. (There’s an obvious reason I picked Conway and not Carbery, say). But that stat overlooks that nuance.

Add to that, you also reasonably frequently claim things that are factually inaccurate which doesn’t help discussion either.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

I literally said “Munster need to do more” in my post, acknowledging this.

But Munster deserve some credit for the development of players like Conway. (There’s an obvious reason I picked Conway and not Carbery, say). But that stat overlooks that nuance.

Add to that, you also reasonably frequently claim things that are factually inaccurate which doesn’t help discussion either.

Taking a 20 something year old who has won 2 trophies and is on the verge of Irish caps is hardly development now is it? More refining the good work already done

Fla even said it on podcast, he just decided to become best in air and practised it, that was him, Fla wasn’t taking any credit

Take Scannell, would he even be at Munster only IRfU blocked the signing of the Aus guy that time?

I said it before, Munster used to be full of home grown players, for the good of ireland it should be the same again.....

What is factual incorrect? You going to throw out the Hart statement again?

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

I literally said “Munster need to do more” in my post, acknowledging this.

But Munster deserve some credit for the development of players like Conway. (There’s an obvious reason I picked Conway and not Carbery, say). But that stat overlooks that nuance.

Add to that, you also reasonably frequently claim things that are factually inaccurate which doesn’t help discussion either.

You have to have a base line somewhere.

And if your base line is starting to develop a player who is already a HC winner then I'm afraid that's just a bit too much of a stretch. That's like saying leinster developed fardy cos he had never won anything before he joined.

As a measure of "development".... stick to locals being developed locally, or non locals developed through an academy.

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

You have to have a base line somewhere.

And if your base line is starting to develop a player who is already a HC winner then I'm afraid that's just a bit too much of a stretch. That's like saying leinster developed fardy cos he had never won anything before he joined.

As a measure of "development".... stick to locals being developed locally, or non locals developed through an academy.

Not sure if Conway won HC, he won Amlin and Pro 14 in final season....maybe he HC medal from previous season

You point is correct, it’s a stretch

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure if Conway won HC, he won Amlin and Pro 14 in final season....maybe he HC medal from previous season

You point is correct, it’s a stretch

You're correct, his picture is up in the laighin out bar in the RDS, among the other European Victories

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

You have to have a base line somewhere.

And if your base line is starting to develop a player who is already a HC winner then I'm afraid that's just a bit too much of a stretch. That's like saying leinster developed fardy cos he had never won anything before he joined.

As a measure of "development".... stick to locals being developed locally, or non locals developed through an academy.

Conway signed for Munster when he was 22. Fardy signed for Leinster when he was 33. They're hardly comparable.

I accept Leinster deserve the bulk of the credit, and Munster need to be doing more (and appear to be). But Conways's a superior player now than he was when he signed for Munster.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

Conway signed for Munster when he was 22. Fardy signed for Leinster when he was 33. They're hardly comparable.

I accept Leinster deserve the bulk of the credit, and Munster need to be doing more (and appear to be). But Conways's a superior player now than he was when he signed for Munster.

I don't disagree at all.

But I would just question if that's a valid point of principle if your discussing player development, which we are.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Taking a 20 something year old who has won 2 trophies and is on the verge of Irish caps is hardly development now is it? More refining the good work already done

Fla even said it on podcast, he just decided to become best in air and practised it, that was him, Fla wasn’t taking any credit

Take Scannell, would he even be at Munster only IRfU blocked the signing of the Aus guy that time?

I said it before, Munster used to be full of home grown players, for the good of ireland it should be the same again.....

What is factual incorrect? You going to throw out the Hart statement again?

My point is that ultimately, some players are going to achieve a higher ceiling starting for other provinces than they are while not-starting at Leinster. And that is a good thing. (I accept, Leinster deserve the bulk of the credit).

As for the factual inaccuracies, there were 2 just yesterday i.e. Conway being a starter for Leinster and you claiming posters said Mathewson should be re-signed. There are countless more without even mentioning Hart. It doesn't help discussion.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

I don't disagree at all.

But I would just question if that's a valid point of principle if your discussing player development, which we are.

I think we agree for the most part. I go back to my point about the higher ceiling, above tho. Leinster do deserve the bulk of the credit but player development doesn't stop at 22 either.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

My point is that ultimately, some players are going to achieve a higher ceiling starting for other provinces than they are while not-starting at Leinster. And that is a good thing. (I accept, Leinster deserve the bulk of the credit).

As for the factual inaccuracies, there were 2 just yesterday i.e. Conway being a starter for Leinster and you claiming posters said Mathewson should be re-signed. There are countless more without even mentioning Hart. It doesn't help discussion.

Conway started both finals? I was at the rds every game that season and Conway was starting more than not.....

If I could be bothered I could search the thread for all the calls for him to be resigned....the posts about “best 9 in Ireland “ incorrect?

I will refer back to Molecast, they even mention the calls in Munster to resign him.....so trying to say it’s just me is factual incorrect

He should have been dropped at end of last season, end of story....do you disagree?

molloyjh

The last few pages have been....interesting. Also frustrating for a few reasons.

Its massively unrealistic to expect the other provinces to develop talent the way that Leinster do. That said I dont think (m)any actually expect that. It's also massively unrealistic to expect Leinster players not to bolster other provinces ranks. It is the way it should work, even if it can be a bit annoying as a Leinster fan.

Another thing that's massively unrealistic is the thought that the IRFU are ever going to prioritise the provinces success over the national sides success. Theres more to rugby in Ireland than the national team and the provinces. The national team is the cash cow for everything and the IRFU have to look after everything. Therefore priority number 1 has to be, is and always will be the success of the national side. That funds the game. Everything else comes secondary to that, because without that everything else loses out. Relaxing rules that provide that success is cutting your nose off to spite your face. It makes no sense in the bigger picture.

Some of the comments on here have been really naive in relation to some of the above. And others have been downright wrong. The thought that Munster have remained static in terms of developing players is laughable. Where have the Flannerys, POCs, DOCs, Wallace's, ROGs and Earls' been over the last 10 years? A decade ago Munster had homegrown Lions coming out their ears. Now they barely have homegrown players on the national team. That's regression no matter what way you look at it. Hopefully that's being or has been resolved. Time will tell. But there is nobody here who can genuinely say with confidence (and evidence) that Ulster and Munster are pulling their weight in terms of player development. They arent. Do they need to be as good as Leinster? No. Do they need to be better than they are? Yes.

As for the transparency re finances etc that sounds nice, but it would just give more ammo to the armchair critics. If Munster get more (even if the reasons are sound) it creates complaints from elsewhere. Look at the b!itching from some quarters (mainly Leinster) re the likes of Mathewson. Transparency will just give more people reason to complain and wont have any appreciable benefit. I do hope the IRFU are giving the other provinces more support (not just financial) than Leinster in order to improve where they are at. I'd imagine that's exactly what is happening. Look at the Thomond debt or the encouragement some Leinster players have received to go elsewhere. That would certainly suggest to me that this is happening. It would be the right thing to do.

But it is also not the place of the IRFU to level the playing field entirely. Leinster will always remain the stronger, more successful province. That said we've already seen in recent times that this success is, in itself, cyclical. It's not a constant at all. Nor will Saracens success be, just like Toulons wasnt. People have often been quick to declare the death of something in rugby. Only a few years ago we were all told that the provinces successes in Europe were at an end after the Champions Cup was set up. There can be plenty of melodrama and hot take action on this stuff.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

I think we agree for the most part. I go back to my point about the higher ceiling, above tho. Leinster do deserve the bulk of the credit but player development doesn't stop at 22 either.

Depends on your definition of development. Mine would always be developing towards a senior contract.

After that it's a kin to CPD.

Its only semantics I suppose, but if you're trying to be analytical and measure your provinces success or otherwise in player development, I personally wouldn't be including the Conway type situation.

If carbery stays in munster for the next 4 years does he become a 'munster developed' player? At what stage does a player become 'developed'? Ireland cap? 100 provincial appearances?

You therefore see the need for some type of base line in order to measure.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Conway started both finals? I was at the rds every game that season and Conway was starting more than not.....

I've already posted why he wasn't considered a starter for both finals.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If I could be bothered I could search the thread for all the calls for him to be resigned....the posts about “best 9 in Ireland “ incorrect?

I will refer back to Molecast, they even mention the calls in Munster to resign him.....so trying to say it’s just me is factual incorrect

He should have been dropped at end of last season, end of story....do you disagree?

I'll remind you of your claim. You posted that in the Munster thread, posters were "crying about a exNZ international not let sign another contract." That's just not true. It's just not. Posters were saying they were sad to see him go. And misrepresenting that doesn't help discussion here. And unfortunately, it's not the first time you've posted factually inaccurate claims here.

(I realise my engaging on this doesn't help either so that's the last I'm going to say on it).

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Depends on your definition of development. Mine would always be developing towards a senior contract.

After that it's a kin to CPD.

Its only semantics I suppose, but if you're trying to be analytical and measure your provinces success or otherwise in player development, I personally wouldn't be including the Conway type situation.

If carbery stays in munster for the next 4 years does he become a 'munster developed' player? At what stage does a player become 'developed'? Ireland cap? 100 provincial appearances?

You therefore see the need for some type of base line in order to measure.

That's a fair point, tbh. Part of that is gametime tho, which is what Munster, Ulster and Connacht can offer that Leinster can't.

Personally, I don't know how you'd measure it, but I think we can agree that it's better for a player with a high ceiling to play 100 times for Munster versus 40 times for Leinster, say. (And, consequently, better for Irish rugby).

The Lost Sheep

nerd69 wrote: »

Munsters pipeline had been poor for the bones of a decade but if you look at the young talent coming through now a they seem to have fixed the pipeline hopefully we will see this talent develop. Having said that I would wager Leinster will still develop more players due to sheer numbers (plus I would wager there is more money in the Leinster schools system which won't hurt)

I wouldnt say poor. Weaker than what was there before but that side and those coming through was unique. Leinster will develop more due to numbers as well as better coaching in some places. Everyone goes on about cistercian Roscrea being small but theyve still 3 sides at senior/sct level which is more than majority of the Munster schools can field.

molloyjh wrote: »

The last few pages have been....interesting. Also frustrating for a few reasons.

Its massively unrealistic to expect the other provinces to develop talent the way that Leinster do. That said I dont think (m)any actually expect that. It's also massively unrealistic to expect Leinster players not to bolster other provinces ranks. It is the way it should work, even if it can be a bit annoying as a Leinster fan.

I dotn see why it should be annoying to leinster fans. They cant keep everyone. Leinster will produce more due to numbers playing the game being much higher.

Another thing that's massively unrealistic is the thought that the IRFU are ever going to prioritise the provinces success over the national sides success. Theres more to rugby in Ireland than the national team and the provinces. The national team is the cash cow for everything and the IRFU have to look after everything. Therefore priority number 1 has to be, is and always will be the success of the national side. That funds the game. Everything else comes secondary to that, because without that everything else loses out. Relaxing rules that provide that success is cutting your nose off to spite your face. It makes no sense in the bigger picture.

spot on. Games in Aviva and international game in general pays for everything as most other areas are loss making otherwise.

Some of the comments on here have been really naive in relation to some of the above. And others have been downright wrong. The thought that Munster have remained static in terms of developing players is laughable. Where have the Flannerys, POCs, DOCs, Wallace's, ROGs and Earls' been over the last 10 years? A decade ago Munster had homegrown Lions coming out their ears. Now they barely have homegrown players on the national team. That's regression no matter what way you look at it. Hopefully that's being or has been resolved. Time will tell. But there is nobody here who can genuinely say with confidence (and evidence) that Ulster and Munster are pulling their weight in terms of player development. They arent. Do they need to be as good as Leinster? No. Do they need to be better than they are? Yes.

you are talking about test lions, and multi capped internationals etc etc. Very hard to replicate that with such a small pool players.
It takes time to develop players especially when you dont have advantages leinster have as a comparison.

Bridge93 wrote: »

Last years u20s and this years team hopefully indicate ulster and Munster have begun to get their **** together in producing players again.
I don’t see how anyone can say we don’t know if Munster got worse at talent production. Even ignoring Leinster, Munster won Heineken cups with teams comprised of far more local guys than are currently in the squad. A lot of very strong prospects in both provinces based on last two seasons and Connacht has one or two of the best prospects themselves the last few seasons

that European winning side from Munster is a huge outlier though. Leinster game and spread of clubs and strength of club game helps as well. Still huge numbers playing in Dublin that are from limerick/rest of country that for economic reasons are based in capital and that has impact up the line as well
Far easier to bring through young players in stronger more successful side than not as strong sides as well.

Dubinusa

I reckon that as of now all the provinces are doing ok for player development.
Of course Leinster with a bigger pool to pick from will be at the forefront, but as we've seen, some lads that don't make it at Leinster can flourish elsewhere. I.E, Loughman is really stepping up at Munster. Robb and Roux at Connacht and Timoney and Jones at Ulster.
But each academy is getting some raw talent to work with.
I think each season 2 lads from the u20's should go on to have international careers and another 5 to 7 make solid pro careers.
I think we're seeing that! This years crop should have many lads who make it to the pro's. Some years are obviously better than others.
Ulster have developed E.O.S to the point he could be an international. Leinster passed on him.
Munster have a hooker in the academy that Leinster also passed on and Connacht have a couple of lads too.
The system is not perfect and as long as the IRFU can stay profitable and secure it will remain so.
I think the alternative would be to encourage private investment to each of the provinces!

Yeah_Right

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If I could be bothered I could search the thread for all the calls for him to be resigned....the posts about “best 9 in Ireland “ incorrect?

I will refer back to Molecast, they even mention the calls in Munster to resign him.....so trying to say it’s just me is factual incorrect

He should have been dropped at end of last season, end of story....do you disagree?

Here, I'll save you the trouble. I don't think I posted that he should have been re-signed but I did post that I was sad to see him go. However, I do think he should have been re-signed. I think Munster should have sent Murray back to AIL to find some form and if he couldn't they should cut him and sign Alby for next season.

Best SH in Ireland? On form over the last year? Maybe. Who has been better? JGP? Maybe.

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Conway started both finals? I was at the rds every game that season and Conway was starting more than not.....

If I could be bothered I could search the thread for all the calls for him to be resigned....the posts about “best 9 in Ireland “ incorrect?

I will refer back to Molecast, they even mention the calls in Munster to resign him.....so trying to say it’s just me is factual incorrect

He should have been dropped at end of last season, end of story....do you disagree?

Why would you complain about people (hypothetical or otherwise) wanting Mathewson re-signed when you yourself want Leinster to re-sign an NIQ when they have talented homegrown players queuing up behind him??

The Mathewson situation is very similar to the Tomane one - Ireland internationals as first choice in the positions in question (Murray, Henshaw), NIQs as second choice (Mathewson, Tomane) and two up and coming players behind (McCarthy and Casey, C. O'Brien and T. O'Brien).

You'd have to have massive double standards to be pro-Tomane re-signing but anti-Mathewson re-signing.

Shefwedfan

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Why would you complain about people (hypothetical or otherwise) wanting Mathewson re-signed when you yourself want Leinster to re-sign an NIQ when they have talented homegrown players queuing up behind him??

The Mathewson situation is very similar to the Tomane one - Ireland internationals as first choice in the positions in question (Murray, Henshaw), NIQs as second choice (Mathewson, Tomane) and two up and coming players behind (McCarthy and Casey, C. O'Brien and T. O'Brien).

You'd have to have massive double standards to be pro-Tomane re-signing but anti-Mathewson re-signing.

Already replied to you on the Leinster thread....

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Here, I'll save you the trouble. I don't think I posted that he should have been re-signed but I did post that I was sad to see him go. However, I do think he should have been re-signed. I think Munster should have sent Murray back to AIL to find some form and if he couldn't they should cut him and sign Alby for next season.

Best SH in Ireland? On form over the last year? Maybe. Who has been better? JGP? Maybe.

So McCarthy/Cronin and Casey are playing where exactly in this example?

So you want to cancel a central contracted player to sign a NIQ?

Would the fact no other club before, during or after Munster have tried to sign Mathewson point to his quality?

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Already replied to you on the Leinster thread, your example is as ridiculous now as it was then

Something about scrumhalf being a sacred position that you can't have NIQs in, was it?

Plus, there being more gametime on offer across four positions at Leinster than there is in one position at Munster - even though Tomane only focuses on a single position.

Yeah_Right

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So McCarthy/Cronin and Casey are playing where exactly in this example?

So you want to cancel a central contracted player to sign a NIQ?

Would the fact no other club before, during or after Munster have tried to sign Mathewson point to his quality?

The up and coming HBs can rotate the bench spot over the season and if one of them is good enough they push him to the bench.

Murray has been very average for a year now. If his form continues he absolutely should be cut. Buy him out, send him to France and move on.

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The up and coming HBs can rotate the bench spot over the season and if one of them is good enough they push him to the bench.

Murray has been very average for a year now. If his form continues he absolutely should be cut. Buy him out, send him to France and move on.

Excellent idea.....sure who needs those pesky Ireland internationals at all....

Hands Like Flippers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Excellent idea.....sure who needs those pesky Ireland internationals at all....

Sigh.

Former Former

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I wouldnt say poor. Weaker than what was there before but that side and those coming through was unique. Leinster will develop more due to numbers as well as better coaching in some places. Everyone goes on about cistercian Roscrea being small but theyve still 3 sides at senior/sct level which is more than majority of the Munster schools can field.
I dotn see why it should be annoying to leinster fans. They cant keep everyone. Leinster will produce more due to numbers playing the game being much higher.
spot on. Games in Aviva and international game in general pays for everything as most other areas are loss making otherwise.

you are talking about test lions, and multi capped internationals etc etc. Very hard to replicate that with such a small pool players.
It takes time to develop players especially when you dont have advantages leinster have as a comparison.

that European winning side from Munster is a huge outlier though. Leinster game and spread of clubs and strength of club game helps as well. Still huge numbers playing in Dublin that are from limerick/rest of country that for economic reasons are based in capital and that has impact up the line as well
Far easier to bring through young players in stronger more successful side than not as strong sides as well.

The Munster team of the mid-2000s was an outlier but player development has fallen off a cliff ever since. It's not about world class players, it's not even about players for the national team... Munster can't seem to develop players for Munster.

You look at the starting XV from the weekend and the only home-grown guys under 30 were the Scannells. That's not a good state of affairs.

No one thinks Munster should be replicating the HC winning teams and no one thinks that they should produce as many players as Leinster, but by any measure it hasn't been good enough for a long time.

Ulster might be marginally better but still not good enough.

Felix Jones is God.

Former Former wrote: »

The Munster team of the mid-2000s was an outlier but player development has fallen off a cliff ever since. It's not about world class players, it's not even about players for the national team... Munster can't seem to develop players for Munster.

You look at the starting XV from the weekend and the only home-grown guys under 30 were the Scannells. That's not a good state of affairs.

No one thinks Munster should be replicating the HC winning teams and no one thinks that they should produce as many players as Leinster, but by any measure it hasn't been good enough for a long time.

Ulster might be marginally better but still not good enough.

Can you tell us how many homegrown players were starting against Cardiff a week before that?

Former Former

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Can you tell us how many homegrown players were starting against Cardiff a week before that?

I can't, but I'm sure the answer is "loads"... But that's the point, the shadow XV for the crappier Pro14 ties might be full of local lads, but where Munster have fallen down is producing guys good enough to become first choice.

Shefwedfan

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Can you tell us how many homegrown players were starting against Cardiff a week before that?

The point of the provinces is toprovide players to the Irish international team.



Nobody is asking for the number Leinster produces, but 1 player younger than 30 is not a good return.


I do admit at the start of the season Munster have put a number of younger players into the team. The big question is will they remain now the internationals are back?

awec

People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions.

Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash.

So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players.

This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.