Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1
Options
Comments
-
Joe "reveals reason Toner was omitted"
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-reveals-reason-for-omitting-toner-in-new-book-1.4089882?mode=amp
Joe is great etc etc but why he feels the need to come up with such flimsy nonsense is beyond me. Absolute bollocks that stands up to zero scrutiny.0 -
Former Former wrote: »Joe "reveals reason Toner was omitted"
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-reveals-reason-for-omitting-toner-in-new-book-1.4089882?mode=amp
Joe is great etc etc but why he feels the need to come up with such flimsy nonsense is beyond me. Absolute bollocks that stands up to zero scrutiny.
Yea I read that this morning, total bollocks from Schmidt. Even if he had picked up that ban he would have been back in the middle of the pool.0 -
People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions.
Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash.
So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players.
This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.
It's not even that, it's that they had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in the Ireland squad. From the 23 last week they had Rory Scannell, Niall Scannell, O'Byrne, Cronin and Goggin.
Remove the age-30 criteria and you can include: POM, Earls, Murray, John Ryan, Billy Holland, TOD, Archer.
And if you extend it to "qualifies for Ireland", you can include: Haley, Conway, Farrell, Bleyendaal, Loughman, Kleyn, CJ, Beirne and Arnold.
That's 21 of the 23 available for Ireland selection. And Matthewson will be gone after this weekend, so that''ll be up to 22.0 -
People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions.
Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash.
So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players.
This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.
It's equally lazy to say that sure we can't compete with Leinster and sure we'll never repeat the golden era of the 2000s, so whatever we're doing is grand.
Having very few younger native guys in your XV tells us two things :
1. The native guys who are there are getting older and have limited lifespan remaining.
2. We're too reliant on other provinces and foreign imports.
So if you look 2-3 years down the road to when Murray, Kilcoyne and POM have run out of road, and we aren't seeing as many imports because of the residency change to 5 years, what happens? There's a very finite number of guys with Irish grannies so we need younger guys to come through... And it just isn't happening, and it hasn't happened for a long time.
I have no idea what the solution is, but it's a very real problem.0 -
Yea I read that this morning, total bollocks from Schmidt. Even if he had picked up that ban he would have been back in the middle of the pool.
Or just wait another day before you announce the squad and then you'd know for sure.
It really looks like Toner was never really in contention.0 -
Advertisement
-
Former Former wrote: »Or just wait another day before you announce the squad and then you'd know for sure.
It really looks like Toner was never really in contention.
That's just disrespectful to Toner to make up an excuse like that. The citing window is so short that they would have known he wasn't cited before the squad even hit the news cycle.0 -
To be fair though that's not really what I'm saying.Former Former wrote: »It's equally lazy to say that sure we can't compete with Leinster and sure we'll never repeat the golden era of the 2000s, so whatever we're doing is grand.
Having very few younger native guys in your XV tells us two things :
1. The native guys who are there are getting older and have limited lifespan remaining.
2. We're too reliant on other provinces and foreign imports.
So if you look 2-3 years down the road to when Murray, Kilcoyne and POM have run out of road, and we aren't seeing as many imports because of the residency change to 5 years, what happens? There's a very finite number of guys with Irish grannies so we need younger guys to come through... And it just isn't happening, and it hasn't happened for a long time.
I have no idea what the solution is, but it's a very real problem.
I don't think things are grand, far from it. I do not believe the current setup and system allows for all 4 provinces to build competitive sides. I reckon the only way Munster or Ulster or Connacht are going to build teams that can compete for trophies regularly is by pumping in money.
But this isn't going to happen. This is one of the big problems with having multiple teams owned by the same entity. Can you really say that the IRFU, for example, are doing everything they can to make Munster as good as they can possibly be? Of course not, they can't, because they have to keep Leinster at their current level, they have to also fund Ulster, they have to fund Connacht. Who decides what the priority is for the IRFU? Who decides who gets what money? The whole process is opaque and mysterious, there is pretty much no scrutiny, but this is by design rather than by coincidence.
This is precisely why most sports do not allow this situation to arise, it removes sporting integrity.0 -
Munster have what appears to be a serious set of youngsters that could be in the first choice 23 in the next few years. Hopefully the drought has ended.
They were somewhat unlucky that a few players got injured and didn't pan out. Johnny Holland is the obvious one. Bill Johnston missed a lot of time from successive shoulder injuries. John Madigan was highly rated before getting a nasty leg injury in a A game in Donnybrook, he is now in the ProD2 with Massy.0 -
To be fair though that's not really what I'm saying.
I don't think things are grand, far from it. I do not believe the current setup and system allows for all 4 provinces to build competitive sides. I reckon the only way Munster or Ulster or Connacht are going to build teams that can compete for trophies regularly is by pumping in money.
But this isn't going to happen. This is one of the big problems with having multiple teams owned by the same entity. Can you really say that the IRFU, for example, are doing everything they can to make Munster as good as they can possibly be? Of course not, they can't, because they have to keep Leinster at their current level, they have to also fund Ulster, they have to fund Connacht. Who decides what the priority is for the IRFU? Who decides who gets what money? The whole process is opaque and mysterious, there is pretty much no scrutiny, but this is by design rather than by coincidence.
This is precisely why most sports do not allow this situation to arise, it removes sporting integrity.
Fla mentioned this recently on a podcast, Munster spent huge money building Thomond and are still repaying it....that is part of the problem
They had the option a few seasons back to sell the name of stadium like Ravenspan but they didn't. They would be taking in at least 1 mil per season to pay off that loan.
All of the provinces need to use money wisely. The IRFU can't be a free bank that everytime the provinces make a f**k up they have to bail them out. They need to act properly.0 -
thomond2006 wrote: »Munster have what appears to be a serious set of youngsters that could be in the first choice 23 in the next few years. Hopefully the drought has ended.
Which will be exceptional.....nobody can deny a Munster players bring a certain talent which doesn't seem to be in players from other provinces0 -
Advertisement
-
To be fair though that's not really what I'm saying.
I don't think things are grand, far from it. I do not believe the current setup and system allows for all 4 provinces to build competitive sides. I reckon the only way Munster or Ulster or Connacht are going to build teams that can compete for trophies regularly is by pumping in money.
But this isn't going to happen. This is one of the big problems with having multiple teams owned by the same entity. Can you really say that the IRFU, for example, are doing everything they can to make Munster as good as they can possibly be? Of course not, they can't, because they have to keep Leinster at their current level, they have to also fund Ulster, they have to fund Connacht. Who decides what the priority is for the IRFU? Who decides who gets what money? The whole process is opaque and mysterious, there is pretty much no scrutiny, but this is by design rather than by coincidence.
This is precisely why most sports do not allow this situation to arise, it removes sporting integrity.
in determining where the IRFUS funds go, they need to look at where the money comes in from as well. Leinster filling the aviva a couple of times a season is a great fillip to their coffers. So "keeping leinster at their level" is a bit disingenuous if it turns out that leinster are the biggers inward contributors of the provinces in terms of finances... which i suspect they are by a long way.0 -
Would a draft system be worth bringing into the IRFU funding model?
Let's say each year there are 25 players coming out of the Irish U20's setup, is there a way to incentivise those players to join a draft system?
Say each province gets to pick one by one until all the players are drafted, and then it's up to the provinces if they need to trade them.
I don't follow NFL but I imagine there is a system there that we could look at for ideas perhaps.
Anyone familiar with that system that could offer pros and cons bringing something like that into Irish rugby?0 -
For one, you are eroding the local identity of the team - something the NFL doesn't have at all. Guys grow up wanting to play for Leinster, not whatever Irish team picks them. A lot of academy lads will also be in university and won't want to move away from where they want to go to uni.
It's also potentially not even legal. I don't think its a good idea.0 -
No. Because players are added to academies before they play 20s and after it and it doesnt necessarily work either.Jump_In_Jack wrote: »Would a draft system be worth bringing into the IRFU funding model?
Let's say each year there are 25 players coming out of the Irish U20's setup, is there a way to incentivise those players to join a draft system?
Say each province gets to pick one by one until all the players are drafted, and then it's up to the provinces if they need to trade them.
I don't follow NFL but I imagine there is a system there that we could look at for ideas perhaps.
Anyone familiar with that system that could offer pros and cons bringing something like that into Irish rugby?
All provinces need to develop their own players and systems as well and draft doesnt help that.
NFL system doesnt and wouldnt work here wih how rugby is ran.0 -
People keep talking as if the other 3 provinces current production standards is down to a lack of effort or poor decisions.
Nobody seems willing to accept that it's just as likely to be down to a lack of resources and a lack of cash.
So Munster had 1 Munster-born player under 30 in their HEC squad? What does that tell us? All it says is that Munster (like Ulster), need to rely on imports to compete at european level. When it comes to the Pro14, the standard is pretty low, and Munster can afford to play more of their own guys. Yea, in hindsight Munster could have won at the weekend with a Pro14-standard team, but they weren't to know in advance that Ospreys would be without all their good players.
This "you should be doing better" is just so lazy. For all we know, the team that Munster built to win the HEC over a decade go was an exceptional, one off stroke of luck, and what we have today is closer to normality.
Yeah, cos the lazy approach is the one that uses some form of evidence basis around current vs past numbers, population sizes etc rather than the "it is what is so maybe that's all it can be" approach here. Sure.
You seem intent on things being either-or. Black or white. As I said above, it is entirely reasonable to expect that the other provinces development will always remain behind that of Leinster. But unless you can actually present a case whereby you can show that they shouldn't be doing better then I'd suggest you stop calling others lazy. You're hardly a shining example of hard working, case building investigative opinion building there.
To start, there have been clear issues in Munster for example around the split between Cork and Limerick that are (a) geographical/infrastructural in nature that they cant do anything about and (b) political in nature that they can do something about. The development of Thomond Park seems to have been a financial error (at best) that is proving difficult for them to now deal with. But if they felt the money was there for that then how can it not have been there for player development?
I mean counter some points at least.0 -
Yeah, cos the lazy approach is the one that uses some form of evidence basis around current vs past numbers, population sizes etc rather than the "it is what is so maybe that's all it can be" approach here. Sure.
You seem intent on things being either-or. Black or white. As I said above, it is entirely reasonable to expect that the other provinces development will always remain behind that of Leinster. But unless you can actually present a case whereby you can show that they shouldn't be doing better then I'd suggest you stop calling others lazy. You're hardly a shining example of hard working, case building investigative opinion building there.
To start, there have been clear issues in Munster for example around the split between Cork and Limerick that are (a) geographical/infrastructural in nature that they cant do anything about and (b) political in nature that they can do something about. The development of Thomond Park seems to have been a financial error (at best) that is proving difficult for them to now deal with. But if they felt the money was there for that then how can it not have been there for player development?
I mean counter some points at least.
Huh? That's not how it works.
Where is your evidence that Munster are underperforming when it comes to development? What is the acceptable level, and what are you using to arrive at this number? Is your argument really just "they produced a much better team over a decade ago so surely they can produce better teams now"? THat's not how it works.
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that what happened a decade ago was normal, and what is happening now is not normal, versus what is happening now being normal and a decade ago being abnormal. Not a single shred of it.0 -
Jump_In_Jack wrote: »Would a draft system be worth bringing into the IRFU funding model?
Let's say each year there are 25 players coming out of the Irish U20's setup, is there a way to incentivise those players to join a draft system?
Say each province gets to pick one by one until all the players are drafted, and then it's up to the provinces if they need to trade them.
I don't follow NFL but I imagine there is a system there that we could look at for ideas perhaps.
Anyone familiar with that system that could offer pros and cons bringing something like that into Irish rugby?
NZ have something similar to the draft. Each Super Rugby franchise gets to name a certain number of "protected" players. It used to be 20 but its more now. After that any franchise can try to recruit any other player. Players don't have to move to the team that selected them but if they don't and their local side doesn't pick them in the main squad, they are stuck on a development contract. Lots of All Blacks don't play for their home franchise. It works pretty well* and there is no reason it can't work here if people are willing to take their provincial blinkers off.
*Except for the Blues. It screws the Blues over completely :mad::mad:0 -
Yeah_Right wrote: »NZ have something similar to the draft. Each Super Rugby franchise gets to name a certain number of "protected" players. It used to be 20 but its more now. After that any franchise can try to recruit any other player. Players don't have to move to the team that selected them but if they don't and their local side doesn't pick them in the main squad, they are stuck on a development contract. Lots of All Blacks don't play for their home franchise. It works pretty well* and there is no reason it can't work here if people are willing to take their provincial blinkers off.
*Except for the Blues. It screws the Blues over completely :mad::mad:
Think that’s kind of what nucifora is trying to do, it’s just taking a while to convince players that moving around is best for their career. They were probably hoping carbery would’ve been the shinning light to show the positives of it but his Munster career has been fairly stop start with the injuries. You’ve got other guys then like Dooley and Connors who have supposedly turned down Connacht in the past because being 3rd/4th choice in Leinster, living in dublin is still more attractive than moving west.
One suggestion could be a centralized academy where each province would have the first pick of like 5 local lads each year and then the rest of the academy is made up by a draft from the rest? Practically wouldn’t work with young lads needing to travel a lot.0 -
Former Former wrote: »Or just wait another day before you announce the squad and then you'd know for sure.
It really looks like Toner was never really in contention.
that's a schitty comment from Schmidt, let's just take a second to ponder if Toner would have made a difference in the World cup....
"On 31 minutes a Rory Best overthrow at the halfway line lands at the hands of the Japanese hooker Shota Horie, who launches a Japanese attack into the Irish 22."
"On 50 minutes Ireland earn an attacking lineout. It’s still 9-12. This time it’s an under throw from the Irish hooker and another opportunity slips by Ireland."
so you could make an argument that the 2 mistakes would have happened even if Toner was there, but I don't buy that, it's a completely different different throw-in for Toner. He catches both as Rory launces them High.0 -
I think Munster could actually do quite well in Europe with all homegrown players. They could have put out a side like below against Ospreys (Kilcoyne, Hanrahan injured). If they took that approach from the start of the season, players like Healy would have been building into it rather than than getting thrown in at the deep end.
1. James Cronin, 2. Niall Scannell, 3. John Ryan, 4. Fineen Wycherley, 5. Billy Holland, 6. POM, 7. Tommy O'Donnell, 8. Jack O'Donoghue, 9. Conor Murray, 10. Ben Healy, 11. Keith Earls, 12. Rory Scannell, 13. Dan Goggin, 14. Calvin Nash, 15. Shane Daly; 16. Kevin O'Byrne, 17. Liam O'Connor, 18. Stephen Archer, 19. Darren O'Shea, 20. Jack O'Sullivan, 21. Neil Cronin/Craig Casey, 22. Liam Coombes
That's a good side. Munster have good players, and now with Larkham's coaching of the attack, they're looking much better going forward.
I don't think Munster have been backing their homegrown talent enough over recent years. It's a bit like Leinster in the three-quarter line, but all over the park. Leinster poach Henshaw while Connacht develop players Leinster discarded - Farrell, Robb, possibly Daly now - into European Cup level players. They bring in Lowe rather than backing O'Loughlin on the left wing, they sign Tomane instead of backing Conor O'Brien (who showed he was more than good enough when he got a shot during Tomane's injury absence last season). Three out of four of the 11-14 originally named to start in Connacht were bought in. Sure they're developing players. But up to European Cup level? Only half the first-team three-quarter line is homegrown.
Both Munster and Leinster need to improve when it comes to bringing through homegrown talent.0 -
Advertisement
-
that's a schitty comment from Schmidt, let's just take a second to ponder if Toner would have made a difference in the World cup....
"On 31 minutes a Rory Best overthrow at the halfway line lands at the hands of the Japanese hooker Shota Horie, who launches a Japanese attack into the Irish 22."
"On 50 minutes Ireland earn an attacking lineout. It’s still 9-12. This time it’s an under throw from the Irish hooker and another opportunity slips by Ireland."
so you could make an argument that the 2 mistakes would have happened even if Toner was there, but I don't buy that, it's a completely different different throw-in for Toner. He catches both as Rory launces them High.
I'd have had Toner as well, but I think this is too reductive, tbh. It also overlooks the fact that we've had lineout malfunctions as well with both Best and Toner in the team. Asserting he'd have caught them both doesn't make it so.0 -
I doubt bringing Toner would have made any real difference. It's just bizarre to be coming out after the fact with these highly dubious explanations.0
-
yeah all province likely will be behind leinster on basis of player numbers and mainly that leinster have more fee paying schools with funding to assist players that will never happen elsewhere and then as province with biggest population will have more of all other players as well. Connacht have always done well considering their numbers. Munster did better than could be expected in 00s but that side was based hugely around success in AIL which helped players catch up on differences to players in leinster at school leaving age.Yeah, cos the lazy approach is the one that uses some form of evidence basis around current vs past numbers, population sizes etc rather than the "it is what is so maybe that's all it can be" approach here. Sure.
You seem intent on things being either-or. Black or white. As I said above, it is entirely reasonable to expect that the other provinces development will always remain behind that of Leinster. But unless you can actually present a case whereby you can show that they shouldn't be doing better then I'd suggest you stop calling others lazy. You're hardly a shining example of hard working, case building investigative opinion building there.
I would call thomond a mistake in timing. Not anything else. The size of stadium is fine for biggest games and with financial downturn paying back took much longer than anticipated.To start, there have been clear issues in Munster for example around the split between Cork and Limerick that are (a) geographical/infrastructural in nature that they cant do anything about and (b) political in nature that they can do something about. The development of Thomond Park seems to have been a financial error (at best) that is proving difficult for them to now deal with. But if they felt the money was there for that then how can it not have been there for player development?
Very hard to say you can do something about the political issues that exist in Munster rugby. Similar issues exist in leinster between clubs
The issue with thomond is more timing of it and financial downturn which affected paying back loans and that had knock on effect on rest of spending in the provinces rugby budget
we had a centralised academy at first. Wont change back to that. Provinces want that bit more control that a centralised set up sorsnt provide.Think that’s kind of what nucifora is trying to do, it’s just taking a while to convince players that moving around is best for their career. They were probably hoping carbery would’ve been the shinning light to show the positives of it but his Munster career has been fairly stop start with the injuries. You’ve got other guys then like Dooley and Connors who have supposedly turned down Connacht in the past because being 3rd/4th choice in Leinster, living in dublin is still more attractive than moving west.
One suggestion could be a centralized academy where each province would have the first pick of like 5 local lads each year and then the rest of the academy is made up by a draft from the rest? Practically wouldn’t work with young lads needing to travel a lot.0 -
Richie_Rich89 wrote: ».....Leinster need to improve when it comes to bringing through homegrown talent.
the shark has been jumped lads....0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »the shark has been jumped lads....
He’s happy to beat the same drum anywhere he can.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »I would call thomond a mistake in timing. Not anything else. The size of stadium is fine for biggest games and with financial downturn paying back took much longer than anticipated.
Very hard to say you can do something about the political issues that exist in Munster rugby. Similar issues exist in leinster between clubs
The issue with thomond is more timing of it and financial downturn which affected paying back loans and that had knock on effect on rest of spending in the provinces rugby budget
There's no real comparison to be made between spending money on a stadium and spending it on player development anyway. The stadium development was funded by debt.
Not building the stadium does not mean Munster would have had any more money to put into player development.
And the old stadium would have had to be upgraded anyway.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »the shark has been jumped lads....
Anyone who doesn't see that there's room for improvement in promoting homegrown three-quarters at Leinster given the talent waiting in the wings has no business criticizing Munster for their lack of development of their own players.
But then I guess a lot of Leinster fans on here are quite one-eyed...0 -
Richie_Rich89 wrote: »Anyone who doesn't see that there's room for improvement in ..
hang on now richie .... you didnt say that
you said leinster NEED to improve.
theres a hell of s difference between the two.
of course theres room for improvement... every company in the world strives to improve, and im sure leinster academy are no different.
however, in a season where there are 27 leinster born players in the senior squads of the other 3 provinces...
and there are 37 leinster born players in the 46 man senior squad....
then the answer is an emphatic NO that leinster do not NEED to improve in their player development... and lumping them in with being equal to munster in the need to develop is illogic in the extreme.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »hang on now richie .... you didnt say that
you said leinster NEED to improve.
theres a hell of s difference between the two.
of course theres room for improvement... every company in the world strives to improve, and im sure leinster academy are no different.
however, in a season where there are 27 leinster born players in the senior squads of the other 3 provinces...
and there are 37 leinster born players in the 46 man senior squad....
then the answer is an emphatic NO that leinster do not NEED to improve in their player development... and lumping them in with being equal to munster in the need to develop is illogic in the extreme.
Argue over how I phrased it if you want to.
I quite specifically referred to the three-quarter line, saying the Leinster situation in these positions was similar to how Munster operate for every position.
Plus, some of the players playing for other teams might be because of a lack of development to senior team level at Leinster - Tom Farrell, Tadhg Beirne. Obviously the academy and under-age structures deserve credit in those cases.
I'd make a distinction between development to academy level at Leinster and development to the senior team, which depends on the first team coach actually selecting you. I've no issue with the former.0 -
Advertisement
-
Name one young player that Munster have let go in the last five years that has gone on to do anything of note. Ultan Dillane is probably the only talent to slip through the net and he was only sub academy I believe.
The idea that Munster held anyone back is nonsense. The players simply weren't there and that's a different question.0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement