Things the PC brigade don't want to hear or admit

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Are people from the Aran islands a distinct ethnic group too so? By that logic they would be. What about people from Navan? A race of their own surely. Where do you draw the line with the ethnic subdivision?

What are you on about, Navan?

A distinct ethnic group is one that is a large group of individuals who are perceived* to be different by dint of genetic ancestry and/ or upbringing within that community, which community shares an acknowledged common heritage, and displays common social and cultural practices.


*perceived, because ethnicity is not an objective reality. As stated earlier, its usefulness as a concept only extends to perception of any group as being 'other'. If society at large were blind to 'ethnicity', then the word would cease to exist. It is interesting to note, therefore, that the very people who oppose the idea of traveller ethnicity are often the same people who necessitate the existence of traveller ethnicity, at least as a linguistic device.

Mad_maxx

jmayo wrote: »

The so called PC brigade have the same tendencies no matter which of their cherished groups they are talking about.

And travellers are one of the included groups, along with some religious and ethnic groups.

The so called PC brigade always dismiss negative comments about the social deficiencies, the lack of integration into mainstream society, the often isolationist outlook, the criminality, the feuding, the sometimes extremist attitudes, the treatment of animals, the misogynistic attitudes, the treatment of children, the racist attitudes, the anti gay attitudes of one of their beloved pet groups by immediately targeting those making the comments.

How dare anyone speak negatively of them.
You are deemed a racist, a nazi, a bigot.
The default defense is to attack the person making the point and try cow them into submission.

And how dare one bring up some inconvenient stats that might actually back up the statements as facts.

The stats are immediately attacked and any tiny inconsistency is deemed grounds for dismissal.

And even the stats and facts are acknowledged, the blame for the poor results is laid at the feet of those making the point in the first place.

It is always someone else fault.

The so called the PC brigade often comes across with a superiority complex where they seem to believe that these groups are never at fault for their own shortcomings and almost as if they are incapable of making informed decisions about their lives and their lots.

But the real kicker here is that a lot of the most ardent defenders of all these groups are often the exact type of people that these groups despise.

Feminists are hated for promoting equality, they are the antithesis of what these groups most likely see as the lot for womenfolk in their communities.

Homosexuals are hated because they are viewed as deviants that these groups refuse to acknowledge exist amongst them and think at best deserve to be shunned to at worse to be eradicated by any means possible.

But yet these are often the ones at the forefront of defending the often appalling behaviour. :rolleyes:

The level of cognitive dissonance shown by the defenders of these groups is sometimes astounding.

The cultural left despise middle Ireland and will side with any group at odds with same

Travellers are a sacred cow of the PC Left but showing disdain for the hated middle class is the end goal, eulogising travellers is a means to that end

Jimmy Garlic

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What are you on about, Navan?

A distinct ethnic group is one that is a large group of individuals who are perceived* to be different by dint of genetic ancestry and/ or upbringing within that community, which community shares an acknowledged common heritage, and displays common social and cultural practices.


*perceived, because ethnicity is not an objective reality. As stated earlier, its usefulness as a concept only extends to perception of any group as being 'other'. If society at large were blind to 'ethnicity', then the word would cease to exist. It is interesting to note, therefore, that the very people who oppose the idea of traveller ethnicity are often the same people who necessitate the existence of traveller ethnicity, at least as a linguistic device.

Travellers are Irish people who developed their own insular nomadic subculture most likely as a result of being dispossessed during the cromwellian wars. Most of them resettled many generations later and as a result most travellers don't 'travel' anymore, they are no longer nomads. Isn't being nomadic supposed to be the main defining feature of their culture?

Gregor Samsa

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

People from Donegal speak differently hi. That doesn't make one a different ethnicity. Neither does being a part of a subculture.

It’s amazing that it’s the very people who expend so much energy criticising travellers that claim that they don’t actually exist at all when pushed on it.

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Isn't being nomadic supposed to be the main defining feature of their culture?

No. I've never heard anyone make that claim.

Who said that?

Potential-Monke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No. I've never heard anyone make that claim.

Who said that?

I know I said I'm out, but I had to reply to this.

From the Irish Traveller Movement:

"Their culture and way of life, of which nomadism is an important factor, distinguishes them from the sedentary (settled) population."

From Pavee Point:

"The distinctive Traveller identity and culture, based on a nomadic tradition, sets Travellers apart from the sedentary population or ‘settled people’."

Jimmy Garlic

phutyle wrote: »

It’s amazing that it’s the very people who expend so much energy criticising travellers that claim that they don’t actually exist at all when pushed in it.

Of course they exist, as a subculture, not an ethnicity. They should be more offended by leafy suburb hand wringers making work for themselves and deciding they are not Irish.

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I know I said I'm out, but I had to reply to this.

From the Irish Traveller Movement:

"Their culture and way of life, of which nomadism is an important factor, distinguishes them from the sedentary (settled) population."

From Pavee Point:

"The distinctive Traveller identity and culture, based on a nomadic tradition, sets Travellers apart from the sedentary population or ‘settled people’."

Nomadism is certainly an important factor to their history, and as Pavee Point say, nomadism is a tradition -- it isn't the current reality for the majority of travellers.

The same link you provided from PP also states that contemporary travellers don't want to live on the side of the road, and endorses a housing policy for travellers.

Nomadism may well be important to a lot of travellers -- nobody is claiming it is the main defining feature.

Now are you off this time, or ..?

Bonniedog

It is all very confusing.

Travellers who have lived in Ireland for hundreds of years as a sub group with a distinctive lifestyle are now decided to be not really Irish.

Immigrants from countries with no connection to Ireland are designated Irish on their arrival. Without anyone asking them of course, and God help anyone who might point out that like Irish people in London (who remain Irish) they certainly are neither Irish nor do they identify as such.

It's all totally opportunistic to fit in with the left's desperate search for a constituency outside of the undependable natives.

Potential-Monke

You've an answer for everything don't you? And yes, this is my last post in this thread, as it's ending the same as every other one. Opinions are not allowed.

Stop moaning ffs

Another thread about crushing other people and their human rights populated by middle aged morons who never leave their bedroom in their parents house.

Be angry about other things lads. Banks. Government. Brexit. Media.

Abdul or Seán Ward down the street aren’t affecting or killing you or your way of life.

Banks government brexit and media are.

Pick your fights. Dzopes

Gregor Samsa

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is all very confusing.

Travellers who have lived in Ireland for hundreds of years as a sub group with a distinctive lifestyle are now decided to be not really Irish.

It’s not that confusing really. They’re still Irish. But they’re an ethnic minority subset of Irish. Just like Bretons are an ethnic minority subset of French. Most countries across the world have such a concept. I don’t really know why we’re one of the few to have an issue with it.

whisky_galore

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is all very confusing.

Travellers who have lived in Ireland for hundreds of years as a sub group with a distinctive lifestyle are now decided to be not really Irish.

Immigrants from countries with no connection to Ireland are designated Irish on their arrival. Without anyone asking them of course, and God help anyone who might point out that like Irish people in London (who remain Irish) they certainly are neither Irish nor do they identify as such.

It's all totally opportunistic to fit in with the left's desperate search for a constituency outside of the undependable natives.

How are immigrants "designated as Irish on their arrival"?

How does that work? Don't that have to take up citizenship?

Bonniedog

I know quite a few immigrants and not one of them born in another country calls themselves Irish.

No more than an Irish person living on the Holloway Road considers themselves to be English.

It is not up to anyone else to decide what they are!

Whiskey - I am referring to the infantile designation of "New Irish" to everyone who comes here. Much to some of their amusement in fact.

Gregor Samsa

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Of course they exist, as a subculture, not an ethnicity. They should be more offended by leafy suburb hand wringers making work for themselves and deciding they are not Irish.

So travellers have the same status as Goths to you? If they’re a subculture, can they choose to opt out just by behaving and dressing differently? Can they be settled during the week in their job in the bank, then travellers at the weekend with their mates? I’m in a mobile home at this very minute, does that make me a little bit more traveller than I was this morning in my regular house?

whisky_galore

Bonniedog wrote: »

I know quite a few immigrants and not one of them born in another country calls themselves Irish.

No more than an Irish person living on the Holloway Road considers themselves to be English.

It is not up to anyone else to decide what they are!

Whiskey - I am referring to the infantile designation of "New Irish" to everyone who comes here. Much to some of their amusement in fact.

No different to Paddy down under taking his Aussie citizenship and becoming an Australian citizen. If they're pulling their weight I don't see the issue. Did they steal your job?

bfa1509

Things the PC brigade don't want to hear or admit: There isn't a single actual racist in this thread

Stop moaning ffs

bfa1509 wrote: »

Things the PC brigade don't want to hear or admit: There isn't a single actual racist in this thread

There’s plenty. They just don’t have the balls to say it outright. If they truly meant what they’re saying they would.

Jimmy Garlic

phutyle wrote: »

It’s not that confusing really. They’re still Irish. But they’re an ethnic minority subset of Irish. Just like Bretons are an ethnic minority subset of French. Most countries across the world have such a concept. I don’t really know why we’re one of the few to have an issue with it.

Are people from the Aran islands an ethnic minority subset of Irish?

Gregor Samsa

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Are people from the Aran islands an ethnic minority subset of Irish?

If they wished to distinguish themselves as such, and have the means to validate it (as travellers clearly have), then I’d be perfectly happy to accept it. But I’m not aware of Aran Islanders (I know a few) doing either.

Could you spot an Aran islander if he silently walked into a pub in Dublin?

One More Toy

Michaeljacksoneatingpopcorn.gif

Mad_maxx

phutyle wrote: »

If they wished to distinguish themselves as such, and have the means to validate it (as travellers clearly have), then I’d be perfectly happy to accept it.

Could you spot an Aran islander if he silently walked into a pub in Dublin?

Aran islanders don't feature on the hierarchy of victimhood ladder, maybe if their prison representation shot up , they might get noticed

Jimmy Garlic

phutyle wrote: »

Could you spot an Aran islander if he silently walked into a pub in Dublin?

Silently no, I'd know when he opens his gob though. Same goes for travellers. Is their something about travellers that can make you spot them so easily in Dublin pubs?

Gregor Samsa

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Silently no, I'd know when he opens his gob though. Same goes for travellers. Is their something about travellers that can make you spot them so easily in Dublin pubs?

Of course, all those times someone says “were they travellers?” In response to some anecdote, the answer is always “How on earth would I know? They’re impossible to detect!” I mean, all the people on here complaining about their bad experiences with travellers had to ask each and every one of them if they were a traveller before they made the determination.

I guess if travellers were smart enough, they’d just declare “no sir, I am a settled gentleman!” In a posh voice, and they’d never suffer any discrimination.

Please, don’t be so bloody stupid. If your going to have a debate, have the decency to be honest, otherwise there’s no point.

Bonniedog

whisky_galore wrote: »

Did they steal your job?

Unfortunately not

Nor did any of them hump my lady....


Or, whatever.

Irish people in Australia or States might try for citizenship on utilitarian grounds just as immigrants here might take advantage of our much easier criteria.

Doesn't mean that either party considers themselves no longer to be Irish or Samoan or whatever.

Augme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Travellers don't want to integrate, they actively sought to be recognised as an ethnic minority.

I think this is the dumbest point I have seen yet.

Jimmy Garlic

phutyle wrote: »

I guess if travellers were smart enough, they’d just declare “no sir, I am a settled gentleman!” In a posh voice, and they’d never suffer any discrimination.

No traveller suffers any "discrimination" in pubs when they behave themselves and try to fit in with what is generally acceptable in pubs,, same as everyone else.. If me and my pals had a well earned reputation for acting on our grievances and feuds with each other in public houses and taking out bystanders in the crossfire I wouldn't be surprised if I was "discriminated" against.

Augme

Augme wrote: »

I think this is the dumbest point I have seen yet.

I don't know. The fella who declared he was content to be a bigot, and then came back to the thread and tried to advance further points (presuming he'd be taken seriously) is definitely up there.

Gregor Samsa

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No traveller suffers any "discrimination" in pubs when they behave themselves and try to fit in with what is generally acceptable in pubs,, same as everyone else.. If me and my pals had a well earned reputation for acting on our grievances and feuds with each other in public houses and taking out bystanders in the crossfire I wouldn't be surprised if I was "discriminated" against.

It’s amazing that the very people who can’t even identify a traveller know so much about both their experiences and behaviour.

Also funny that those neighbours of mine that texted a “warning” to me when a perfectly innocent traveller family moved into our estate never texted me when anyone else moved in. No, there’s no discrimination.

phutyle

phutyle wrote: »

It’s amazing that the very people who can’t even identify a traveller know so much about both their experiences and behaviour.

its incredible to me that you are consistently claiming to be able to identify travellers on sight and sidestepping any request to elaborate.

give us a few pointers as to how you know what a traveller looks like.

do you spot each and every one of them?

has one of them ever slipped through past you?

can we try a generation game style conveyor belt round on you.

can you tell me if we could make a settled person look like a traveller using your incredible eye.

would that be travellerface