The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

ooter

Yeah 168k was the figure I seen for 5-14 year olds in Dublin.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

And he possibly thought he was being quite cute with that sly piece of selective data

From the GAA 2019 annual report, page 196
Games development allocations by county

Offaly. €212594
Westmeath. €243372
Dublin. €1337630


From the CSO
5-14 year olds by county based on 2016 census
Offaly. 12096
Westmeath. 13311
Dublin. 168828

The numbers don’t support him, Connellans statement was more about rhetoric than facts

It's like we have gone back in time here. This has been busted a long time ago. The only sly bit of selective data is coming from yourself. The funding isn't divided on a per capita basis. It never has been. Do you want me to quote you the Dublin and Cork comparisons again?

Dublin are still receiving far more than everyone else after already having 2 decades of the disparity.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

It's like we have gone back in time here. This has been busted a long time ago. The only sly bit of selective data is coming from yourself. The funding isn't divided on a per capita basis. It never has been. Do you want me to quote you the Dublin and Cork comparisons again?

Dublin are still receiving far more than everyone else after already having 2 decades of the disparity.

Simple question

Connellan made a very specific statement

Is that supported by those figures

In case you missed it, this was his quote

"The current GAA player experience and pathway of a child in a school or club in Dublin is so far superior, they are disproportionately funded per head compared to a child in a school or club in Athlone or Tullamore," he said.

"Why is that acceptable? All we're asking for is that no longer are the Dublin schools funded so disproportionately at the expense of the clubs and schools down the country.

And the figures are what you responded too

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Simple question

Connellan made a very specific statement

Is that supported by those figures

In case you missed it, this was his quote



And the figures are what you responded too

John Connellan can speak for himself. I've already stated that I disagree with his analysis and using per capita figures is not the way the funding has been split. As you know, everyone has been receiving in and around the same apart from Dublin.

ooter

Surely Westmeath having 1/13th the number of 4-15 year olds Dublin have and receiving 1/6th the level of funding Dublin received in 2019 is more than fair in anyone's eyes?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

John Connellan can speak for himself. I've already stated that I disagree with his analysis and using per capita figures is not the way the funding has been split. As you know, everyone has been receiving in and around the same apart from Dublin.

And another part of your argument falls apart

Tell me so, per capita doesn’t float your boat, even though the figure I’ve given reflect basically the target group for this funding. And you state you disagree with Connellan, so registered player approaches are out.

What approach do you think is “fair” for allocating gd funding

tritium

ooter wrote: »

Surely Westmeath having 1/13th the number of 4-15 year olds Dublin have and receiving 1/6th the level of funding Dublin received in 2019 is more than fair in anyone's eyes?

You’d think so wouldn’t you. Apparently John Connellan thinks dublin kids are disproportionately overfunded

I think he may have underprepared in terms of the data yet again

ooter

He was probably using that 30,000 figure for registered kids in dublin that gets trotted out here on a regular basis

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

And another part of your argument falls apart

Tell me so, per capita doesn’t float your boat, even though the figure I’ve given reflect basically the target group for this funding. And you state you disagree with Connellan, so registered player approaches are out.

What approach do you think is “fair” for allocating gd funding

My argument has stayed the same throughout and you haven't been able to touch it. Or have you found an excuse for Dublin have many multiples the number of coaches Cork have with around the same number of youth teams and players?

I disagree with Connellan stating that funding should be stopped in Dublin. The 4 new counties should continue to receive funding.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

My argument has stayed the same throughout and you haven't been able to touch it. Or have you found an excuse for Dublin have many multiples the number of coaches Cork have with around the same number of youth teams and players?

I disagree with Connellan stating that funding should be stopped in Dublin. The 4 new counties should continue to receive funding.

You’re not answering how funding should be allocated. That was the question you were asked

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

You’d think so wouldn’t you. Apparently John Connellan thinks dublin kids are disproportionately overfunded

I think he may have underprepared in terms of the data yet again

They have been over funded for nearly 2 decades. You've been told this enough times to know better.

And Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million on developing youth standards. That's disproportionate over funding?

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

My argument has stayed the same throughout and you haven't been able to touch it. Or have you found an excuse for Dublin have many multiples the number of coaches Cork have with around the same number of youth teams and players?

I disagree with Connellan stating that funding should be stopped in Dublin. The 4 new counties should continue to receive funding.

What 4 new counties ? Dublin is one County and i believe will stay that way

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

You’re not answering how funding should be allocated. That was the question you were asked

I've answered that on numerous occasions. Each county will have a difference based on what's required to improve standards in hurling and football. There's no one size fits all and each county will have their own unique issues to deal with. Overall the number of coaches from the county with the most to the county with the least will be quite small.

So any attempt to explain why Cork with around the same amount of youth teams and players have had fractions of the number of coaches Dublin have had?

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

I've answered that on numerous occasions. Each county will have a difference based on what's required to improve standards in hurling and football. There's no one size fits all and each county will have their own unique issues to deal with. Overall the number of coaches from the county with the most to the county with the least will be quite small.

So any attempt to explain why Cork with around the same amount of youth teams and players have had fractions of the number of coaches Dublin have had?

You spoke about the funding being fair. In your mind what does fair look like

tritium

ShyMets wrote: »

You spoke about the funding being fair. In your mind what does fair look like

Already asked repeatedly and no meaningful answer forthcoming. He apparently will use some sort of secret case by case formula that makes everything work.

He does assure us that they’ll only be a small difference between the coaches each county will get. I suspect given his concern for cork (pop 550k) and the coaches they need that will lead to a consequent windfall for Leitrim (32k population), possibly even a personal coach for every child. Why that’s fair? Who knows. I suspect even Leitrim would see it as a waste

In reality I suspect there is no plan apart from making sure his own county are top of the pile. If they can’t win on the field of play they’ll try to win in the boardrooms.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

You spoke about the funding being fair. In your mind what does fair look like

Like with Dublin in 2002, each county will have their own task force set up to best identify what is needed to improve all areas of Gaelic games, participation, especially female participation, hurling, football, camógie, elite standards etc.

This will all have to be costed of course but it's important to get one key element right in my opinion. Now this is going to sound absurd to those who want the status quo to remain. If there's an imbalance in the funding, it should be in favour of the weaker counties, the ones without natural advantages. For some reason, the GAA decided to do the opposite two decades ago. They over funded Dublin to the detriment of all others.

Now, obviously without any analysis done as yet, the details of what each county will get can't be known. The vision would be that every county would have an equal opportunity to compete in all competitions. Of course there is always population differences but that can be overcome. If it's population and resources that are lacking, then it's almost impossible.

Each county will have officials put in place to oversee the implementation of the plan created for their county. They will have targets and standards to maintain. Other things like caps on spending, pooled sponsorship etc will also need to be looked at.

That's a basic outline of what I view as a fair system that we should have in place.

SheepsClothing

ooter wrote: »

Surely Westmeath having 1/13th the number of 4-15 year olds Dublin have and receiving 1/6th the level of funding Dublin received in 2019 is more than fair in anyone's eyes?

If Dublin want to be allocated funding on a per capita basis, they should be fielding multiple teams to support all those people being funded. You can't receive the funding of a province while fielding one team, it's nonsense.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Already asked repeatedly and no meaningful answer forthcoming. He apparently will use some sort of secret case by case formula that makes everything work.

He does assure us that they’ll only be a small difference between the coaches each county will get. I suspect given his concern for cork (pop 550k) and the coaches they need that will lead to a consequent windfall for Leitrim (32k population), possibly even a personal coach for every child. Why that’s fair? Who knows. I suspect even Leitrim would see it as a waste

In reality I suspect there is no plan apart from making sure his own county are top of the pile. If they can’t win on the field of play they’ll try to win in the boardrooms.

Wrong again. You're consistent in that if nothing else.

The funding disparity apologists see a vision of continuing with one county having an income of 5 and 6 million more than most others and spending close to 4 million on player development yearly. I don't think you'll have any answer as to why you think that would lead to fair competitions?

In fact it's not the only thing you can't answer. Why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players have access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin for example.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Wrong again. You're consistent in that if nothing else.

The funding disparity apologists see a vision of continuing with one county having an income of 5 and 6 million more than most others and spending close to 4 million on player development yearly. I don't think you'll have any answer as to why you think that would lead to fair competitions?

In fact it's not the only thing you can't answer. Why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players have access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin for example.

Whereas you’re happy with a few counties having an income several multiples and several millions more than other counties.

Funny how once you got called on that and the clear requirement to split the mayos and Kerry’s as a consequence how you suddenly put population back on the table

I wonder why that would be......

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

Like with Dublin in 2002, each county will have their own task force set up to best identify what is needed to improve all areas of Gaelic games, participation, especially female participation, hurling, football, camógie, elite standards etc.

This will all have to be costed of course but it's important to get one key element right in my opinion. Now this is going to sound absurd to those who want the status quo to remain. If there's an imbalance in the funding, it should be in favour of the weaker counties, the ones without natural advantages. For some reason, the GAA decided to do the opposite two decades ago. They over funded Dublin to the detriment of all others.

Now, obviously without any analysis done as yet, the details of what each county will get can't be known. The vision would be that every county would have an equal opportunity to compete in all competitions. Of course there is always population differences but that can be overcome. If it's population and resources that are lacking, then it's almost impossible.

Each county will have officials put in place to oversee the implementation of the plan created for their county. They will have targets and standards to maintain. Other things like caps on spending, pooled sponsorship etc will also need to be looked at.

That's a basic outline of what I view as a fair system that we should have in place.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. So in essence the Task Force would plan the funding needed in each county.

Now as each county will want to maximize funding is there not a danger that task forces will inflate the level of funding needed.

So then there would need to be vetting structure and a cap on total spending. And to ensure teams can not spend more you would be agreeable to a ban of county teams privately raising money

I do disagree regarding population. Some counties because of their low population numbers will never truly be competitive. Yes you can improve standards but lack of numbers will tell in the end

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Whereas you’re happy with a few counties having an income several multiples and several millions more than other counties.

Funny how once you got called on that and the clear requirement to split the mayos and Kerry’s as a consequence how you suddenly put population back on the table

I wonder why that would be......

Can you show where I said it's ok for other counties to have income of millions more than everyone else?

Then can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?

And finally can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?

You won't be able to answer any of the 3 questions posed to you. Proving once again that your argument in favour of the funding disparity has been obliterated.

tritium

SheepsClothing wrote: »

If Dublin want to be allocated funding on a per capita basis, they should be fielding multiple teams to support all those people being funded. You can't receive the funding of a province while fielding one team, it's nonsense.

The clear point is they’re not being funded on a per capita basis. On a per capita basis the rest of Leinster is getting twice what dublin is, in spite of Connellans long stream of disingenuous misinformation in a national newspaper.

My own view is simple and already repeatedly given. Games dev is very distinct from elite and inter county the only connect should be in terms of maybe bringing more people into the process that elite might eventually interact with. The aim is to give every child an opportunity to participate and learn skills. As such it has to be done with a starting point of funding per child. People looking to take funding away from kids so their county can win a bit of tin really don’t get very much respect from me.

And before someone says what about cork (they’ll move on to what about Antrim or Laois soon enough). We have a very competent and knowledgable poster here who can talk to what cork are and have being doing. They’ve already given their perspective and unless someone has the detailed knowledge of the working of Munster GAA to contradict them I’m happy to run with that. They have also correctly identified the begrudgery and small mindedness at the heart of the anti dublin argument

SheepsClothing

tritium wrote: »

The clear point is they’re not being funded on a per capita basis. On a per capita basis the rest of Leinster is getting twice what dublin is, in spite of Connellans long stream of disingenuous misinformation in a national newspaper.

My own view is simple and already repeatedly given. Games dev is very distinct from elite and inter county the only connect should be in terms of maybe bringing more people into the process that elite might eventually interact with. The aim is to give every child an opportunity to participate and learn skills. As such it has to be done with a starting point of funding per child. People looking to take funding away from kids so their county can win a bit of tin really don’t get very much respect from me.

And before someone says what about cork (they’ll move on to what about Antrim or Laois soon enough). We have a very competent and knowledgable poster here who can talk to what cork are and have being doing. They’ve already given their perspective and unless someone has the detailed knowledge of the working of Munster GAA to contradict them I’m happy to run withless that. They have also correctly identified the begrudgery and small mindedness at the heart of the anti dublin argument

There is no reason to divorce Games Development Funding from outcomes in the elite end of the sport.

Every kid brought into the sport by a GDO is feeding the elite end of the sport.

Every volunteer coach trained by a GDO is feeding the elite end of the sport.

Every penny that doesn't need to spent on grass roots development, is money that can be pumped into elite senior and underage teams.

ooter

SheepsClothing wrote: »

If Dublin want to be allocated funding on a per capita basis, they should be fielding multiple teams to support all those people being funded. You can't receive the funding of a province while fielding one team, it's nonsense.

If the funding is for 5-14 year olds there are no county teams to field.

the kelt

SheepsClothing wrote: »

If Dublin want to be allocated funding on a per capita basis, they should be fielding multiple teams to support all those people being funded. You can't receive the funding of a province while fielding one team, it's nonsense.

Exactly.

You cant just fund one county to the level of an entire province , its not practical.

If you want to fund on a per capita basis then you have more teams, its not rocket science really. 20% of the population being represented by just one team and funded based on a per capita basis.

Its unfortunate for Dublin really, not their fault but it is what it is.

Biggest population by far + most money from GAA + ability for bigger sponsorship + vast majority of games at home = Domination.

I can understand Dublin supporters not caring about the game itself outside of Dublin, why would or should they, hence arguing against being split, against funding being an issue etc, sure why would a turkey vote for Christmas.

Turning professional of course is a natural next step if something isnt done, that imho will end up in Dublin being split in more than 2 or even 4. The birth of professional super clubs could end the GAA as we know it the way things are going. With complete dominance people will stop watching, people will stop going, even in Dublin itself there are so many talented footballers who will never wear a county jersey.

People laugh at the idea of a pro or semi pro club competition but ignore whats staring them in the face. Already we have not only Dublins best but many of the countrys best playing club football in Dublin.

Not only that but theres been a huge upsurge in TV coverage of the club games even before the pandemic. Im involved down here in Wexford and i can tell ye eyebrows were raised when over €60k was raised from streaming club games for example last year. Ive been far more entertained watching Dublin Club games than watching the Dublin county team and if most people are honest they will say the same. Some of the Dublin Club games ive watched have been serious games of football, which would i pay €5 to watch, entertaining club game or the Dubs putting 20 points over another County team? No contest.

In the not too distant future splitting Dublin in 2 or 4 could be minor in comparison.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to reply. So in essence the Task Force would plan the funding needed in each county.

Now as each county will want to maximize funding is there not a danger that task forces will inflate the level of funding needed.

So then there would need to be vetting structure and a cap on total spending. And to ensure teams can not spend more you would be agreeable to a ban of county teams privately raising money

I do disagree regarding population. Some counties because of their low population numbers will never truly be competitive. Yes you can improve standards but lack of numbers will tell in the end

Well over 20 counties have won provincials since the 90's. Monaghan with 60,000 are a good example of competing with a small population in football.

The task force would present their findings but the ultimate decision on the level of resources would rest with HQ. If in doubt or resources are tight, side with the smaller counties.

The release of accounts for last year and the huge loses have brought county spends into question. It looks like action is been taken in terms of spend on inter county teams. The same needs to be taken in all areas. So yes, private donations etc need to be regulated. Counties can't be allowed to use finance gained elsewhere to gain an advantage.

I think with increased funding, clubs structures will improve hugely in many counties, participation will increase, standards will increase and our inter county games will hopefully see an increase in competitive counties. I think hurling and ladies football and camógie will see the biggest benefit.

ShyMets

the kelt wrote: »

Exactly.



Turning professional of course is a natural next step if something isnt done, that imho will end up in Dublin being split in more than 2 or even 4. The birth of professional super clubs could end the GAA as we know it the way things are going. With complete dominance people will stop watching, people will stop going, even in Dublin itself there are so many talented footballers who will never wear a county jersey.

People laugh at the idea of a pro or semi pro club competition but ignore whats staring them in the face. Already we have not only Dublins best but many of the countrys best playing club football in Dublin.

.

Good post. I think the seeds of a semi pro game have already been sown. Within ten years I wouldn't be surprised to see some semi pro element in the game.

Your correct. Splitting Dublin will be small beer compared to the challenges that will bring

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

People looking to take funding away from kids so their county can win a bit of tin really don’t get very much respect from me.

And before someone says what about cork (they’ll move on to what about Antrim or Laois soon enough). We have a very competent and knowledgable poster here who can talk to what cork are and have being doing. They’ve already given their perspective and unless someone has the detailed knowledge of the working of Munster GAA to contradict them I’m happy to run with that. They have also correctly identified the begrudgery and small mindedness at the heart of the anti dublin argument

You and the defenders of the financial disparity are the only ones who have argued that it's ok to deprive children of development funding. Your claim is that it was ok for one county to receive huge resources in this area while everyone else got very little for 2 decades.

I believe you are referring to a poster who used incorrect metrics to measure the funding distribution and then made a quick exit from the thread. Would you mind sharing with us all why Cork gained access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin?

ooter

I hate to bring it up again but cork gaa received €50m in funding from the gaa for the redevelopment of PUC, it's hard to entertain suggestions they were hard done by when it comes to the level of GDF they've received.

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

Well over 20 counties have won provincials since the 90's. Monaghan with 60,000 are a good example of competing with a small population in football.

The task force would present their findings but the ultimate decision on the level of resources would rest with HQ. If in doubt or resources are tight, side with the smaller counties.

The release of accounts for last year and the huge loses have brought county spends into question. It looks like action is been taken in terms of spend on inter county teams. The same needs to be taken in all areas. So yes, private donations etc need to be regulated. Counties can't be allowed to use finance gained elsewhere to gain an advantage.

I think with increased funding, clubs structures will improve hugely in many counties, participation will increase, standards will increase and our inter county games will hopefully see an increase in competitive counties. I think hurling and ladies football and camógie will see the biggest benefit.

Monaghan are an excellant example but they are a basically a single code county.

Under your proposals they would need to allocate a proportion of funding to Hurling. A potential danger is that they could start to regress at football.

While you're proposal may lead to an increase in standards in both codes in a county. We will not get to a point where all counties will be competitive in both. The numbers simply aren't there in lost counties