The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625407#Comment_117625407

They are not playing at home, and the ticket allocations and number of games played at the stadium by other teams reflects that.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625419#Comment_117625419

I did respond to the points you made, I picked them apart.

The improvement of Dublin senior hurlers came from the talent that came through at underage. Post funding, Dublin have won around 10 underage hurling titles, they barely won any in the 40 years prior to that. A dramatic change and clearly the finance had a major part to play.

The same as in club hurling, a Dublin club has never won a club All Ireland, 2 were won recently. Of course, the improvements were made across the board in Dublin GAA, this all happened post funding increase but you want to claim that's all a coincidence?

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625449#Comment_117625449

They are playing at home. Croke Park is in Dublin right?

You're trying to claim that millions of euros has had no effect on the standards of Dublin hurling and also that Dublin playing at home is not actually at home? And you're the one who said this: "It's so ludicrous people trot out these tired arguments." :D

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625475#Comment_117625475

You did no such thing, trotting out the same old nonsense about Laois.

Are Dublin hurlers not allowed to reach a Leinster championship final ever?

Are they not allowed to beat Laois ever? Should that be enshrined in the GAA constitution?

Are Laois not allowed to improve or disimprove?

Are 'minnows' always to be minnows? Do we lock in the status quo of teams as they were in 2000, for the rest of the century?

I guess those at the top of the status quo would like that.

Apparently money only ever gets raised when they reach the finals & beat Laois, and is forgotten in all the years when they don't. I guess the money works sometimes, and not others. Or maybe it's not really the money.

Because it's a pretty faulty explanation that is wrong far more times than it is right.

So it's not much of an explanation.

Dublin's results have to do with the numbers of people playing hurling, and the complex outcome of sporting events which no one can really explain.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625524#Comment_117625524

I'm sorry but you're just rambling now.

Dublin and all minnows improving in hurling is welcome, it's what all Gaels want to see. There's no point denying what has led to the improvement in Dublin hurling though, the millions pumped in has had a dramatic effect. Underage, club and senior hurling results have been improved beyond recognition. All other areas of Dublin GAA have been transformed also.

There's no point getting angry at people pointing out the obvious unfair financial advantages Dublin were handed, the anger should be directed at those behind the decision, why didn't they fund every county fairly and see standards increase across the country?

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625519#Comment_117625519

They are playing in the home of the GAA. It's not reserved for the exclusive use of Dublin the way that the Nou Camp is for Barcelona.

So no, they are not playing at home as it would be understood in other sports.

The millions of euro of funding only ever explains why Dublin beat Laois, never why they lose.

It's neither necessary nor sufficient as an explanation for how Dublin fare when it comes to taking home medals and championships.

In 1991 Dublin lost a Leinster final to Kilkenny by 2 points, tonight they lost by 9 points. Where's the moneyball effect?

The millions of euro of funding was to keep the GAA alive in the capital city of its home country versus the inroads of soccer and rugby, in terms of participation.

Dublin needs more funding to put programmes in place that in other counties happens naturally \ through social networks.

There are small parishes in the country with more pitches than Dublin 1 despite vast population differences, for example.

RoyalCelt

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117584016#Comment_117584016

The days Dublin got close call after close call. Ref was very harsh on meath against Dublin in 2005, twice in 2007 and 2009. I also believe if those matches were in navan meath would have performed slightly better and edged them. Home advantage is proven in sport so it really doesn't need to be debated.

Nowadays it doesn't matter because it's just the difference between Dublin beating you by 15 or 20 points. Nobody cares.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625660#Comment_117625660

Dublin senior footballers have played every home championship game bar 1 in Croke Park for at least the last 50 years. Croke Park is in Dublin, they are playing at home.

The millions of euro explains the improvements in results across the board. Another example would be Ladies football. Dublin never won an All Ireland prior to funding, they have now won 5 All Irelands since the millions were pumped in.

But this is just the obvious conclusion to a one county only scheme. Results are bound to improve if one county has their own coaching and development plan structured and paid for to to tune of millions. The thing is, the huge number of titles gained from it is not the point, it's that the governing body of our games decided to fund one county at the cost of all others. It was a disgraceful move.

Every county has issues, many had far more than Dublin. For example, at the time this fund was granted, 6 of our counties were emerging from a 30 year war, a huge amount of the population in their counties were openly hostile to Gaelic Games, some members were beaten and murdered for playing our games. Why do you think Dublin deserved their own scheme but these counties didn't?

Obviously, if you can't even admit that playing in Croke Park is a home game for Dublin then you're not going to acknowledge the dramatic improvements the millions of euro has produced for Dublin GAA. Some people still argue that the world is flat, I suppose.

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625744#Comment_117625744

Dublin are playing in their hometown, they are not playing at home. At home implies they are playing in their own exclusive stadium with a corresponding allocation in tickets.

The Ladies championship has only been running since the 1970s. Dublin is the most populous county in the country. Why does Cork or Kerry winning titles not require some special explanation but Dublin winning does? Dublin are just fulfulling their natural potential.

The 6 counties are a special case, as is Dublin. Nobody in Dublin would have any objection to them being treated as such, but playing devil's advocate, why do they need it? They kept playing the games all through that. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. If there's a significant dropoff in players from GAA backgrounds playing the game, or signs of that, then they should get support.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625790#Comment_117625790

So Dublin are playing at home when they play in Croke park, glad we got that sorted.

Yes and Dublin ladies never won an All Ireland in the 40 years prior to funding. It's such a familiar pattern, Dublin never won an u21 football All Ireland prior to funding either, as noted, a Dublin hurling club never won an All Ireland pre funding. Then huge improvements in results at minor level in football and hurling, u21 football and hurling, senior football and hurling and of course club football and hurling.

When you pump millions of euros into one county to develop players, this is the obvious result. That's why the focus is on Dublin. The winning of titles is not the issue, it's that it was done unfairly. I know you won't admit it but if you had won titles without the funding then it would have been far more satisfactory. All the titles are at the very least tainted and some would go further than that.

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626422#Comment_117626422

Dublin aren't playing at home in sporting terms. So no "Glad we got that sorted" just you trotting out a tired debating trick there.

They didn't go out and buy these players from other counties.

Nothing tainted or unfair about it. Dublin haven't gotten a cent out of the GAA they didn't put in over the years.

Their current performances reflect them living up to their natural potential of the number of players they have playing GAA in the county.

John Doe1

Meath have a population 3 times that of Monaghan yet you can be sure Monaghan would never throw in the towel so easily.

The money and resources definitely need to spread out more evely and Dublin need to play more outside their county boundary but until then, leinster teams need to show some fight at least.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628474#Comment_117628474

They are playing at home in any term possible. Just to remind you again, the Dublin senior footballers have played all their home championship games in Croke Park for the past 50/60 years bar one game against London in 2004. And they played every single championship game in their home stadium Croke Park for 10 years between 2006-2016. Wexford was their first away Leinster championship match in 15 years. These are the facts, your debating trick involves sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending not to hear.

Dublin didn't just get funding from the GAA, they got huge amounts of taxpayers money. We're talking millions here. They had their own scheme set up while every other county had to work with far less. That's why the titles are tainted. Dublin have increased sponsorship and income hugely off the back of this new success. Dublin now spend close to 4 million on player development alone! Millions more on team preparations and salaries. They are dominating and have improved hugely across all codes and grades because they are a highly financed, professional organisation competing in amateurs games. Again, these are the facts, I expect you to cover your ears once more but you know it, I know, we all know it.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628496#Comment_117628496

I think Leinster counties have to show more fight but Dublin haven't had it that tough outside Leinster either. It's just very hard to compete against a multi-million euro professional organisation.

RoyalCelt

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628496#Comment_117628496

How have monaghan faired vs Dublin in croker for championship matches the last 50 years? Not as well as meath anyway. For a team that wouldn't throw in the towel I wouldn't have thought that.

They're blessed Dublin isn't in ulster every year because if it was we'd be all talking about the boring ulster championship and how exciting leinster is.

Dublin in a lull atm yet they still beat meath comfortably today.

A runners up medal for the hurlers this year too and the ladies looking strong.

Hammer Archer

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625790#Comment_117625790

With respect, by your definition, no GAA team plays at home as there's never any allocation of tickets in home/away games. Anyone can purchase any number of tickets

Dublin footballers' home ground is Croke Park at the moment. The Dublin County board chose Croke Park as their home ground for the league (before Covid that is). If they wanted, they'd be free to use Parnell Park for their home games, but they made that decision which makes obvious financial sense.

Now, obviously there are a huge number of championship games that need to be played in Croke Park and there's nothing that can be done about that, but it's very misleading to try to argue that Croker isn't Dublin's home ground when they're the ones who have chosen it.

RoyalCelt

Dublins home town advantage showed again today getting some very questionable referring decisions.

dunnerc

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630190#Comment_117630190

Think you need to watch the game again

Enquiring

Investing in coaching and development works! Once again we have proof of that with Offaly winning the Leinster u20 championship. An increase in funding has made a big difference. Same with Kildare winning an u20 All Ireland recently, Meath winning an underage provincial title and even Wicklow improving hugely in underage competitions. Now the funding has to be increased across the country, especially in 'weaker' counties.

But this is all a stark reminder of how disgraceful the decision was to provide one county with a multi million euro development system while every other county operated with very few coaches. From 2002 Dublin GAA were competing on an uneven playing field. Everyone is well aware of the huge increase in titles won across the board, the only surprise is that there weren't more, in fact, it's hugely embarrassing for Dublin GAA that they didn't win more.

I think we should be calling for some form of tribunal to look into why the Dublin only scheme was permitted by the GAA and why millions of taxpayers money went directly to one county board. Who approved this? Who signed off on this? What government ministers were involved? There are tons of questions that need to be answered.

lukin

You'd have more luck finding Shergar than finding one Dublin supporter who would admit that the Games Development funding has helped them win their All-Ireland's.

ooter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630190#Comment_117630190

home town advantage wasn't of much benefit to the senior hurlers the previous evening.

RoyalCelt

Meath win the minor leinster title tonight. We've had some underage success recently and I can tell you it's a direct result of the underage funding provided by the GAA. I'm not privey to the goings on within offaly but I'd imagine it's something similar.

The scariest decision ever made by the gaa administration was finding Dublin underage up to the eyepals while the rest got pennies. We still get pennies compared to Dublin. It just shows you money talks in the gaa and meaths recent underage success is a direct result of money.

The next step should be providing counties with more funds to try and match the professional setup Dublin have at senior level. Obviously meath have a professional setup as do all counties but it pales in comparison.

Ahh if only meath had a population of 2 million with many not interested in the gaa. With have had money thrown at us and we'd now be winning all Irelands and leinsters for fun. Except I wouldn't find it fun especially leinster. No sane person enjoys cakewalks for a decade straight.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695457#Comment_117695457

No, no, no. You've got this all wrong. The money doesn't have any impact on elite level results, it's all for primary school kids, improving standards is because Meath have harder working volunteers, Meath need the money because some kids play other sports or one of the other long list of excuses thrown out by the defenders of the financial disparity. 😆

It really puts this to bed. Meath winning underage titles, Kildare winning an u20 All Ireland, Offaly getting to an u20 All Ireland final etc. Putting proper coaching structures and plans into operation makes a huge difference. And to put them in place, you need the finance. Again, serious questions need to be asked as to why it took nearly 2 decades for a small proportion of counties outside of Dublin to gain access to the development system and why it still hasn't been made available to all counties.

It's highly unlikely to happen but there should be a tribunal set up to investigate how millions of public and GAA funds were reserved for a one county only scheme. Who was behind the decision, what government ministers etc were involved, details of the meetings between Dublin County Board members and members of the government need to be uncovered and so on. It really is a scandal, not only the tens of millions of euro but that so many players were denied winning titles because they were competing against a county operating at a professional level in our amateur games.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700532#Comment_117700532

Jaysus were you living under a rock or something.

Bertie was in charge when all this was setup.

GAA were afraid of losing gorund in capital and bertie was only too glad to open the state coffers to make his county better.

Now if you are looking for memos, minutes, etc of his meetings then you might be out of luck.

You don't expect the finance minister without a bank account or who didn't know how much he was spending on doing up his rented gaff to have kept minutes of meetings with GAA president or Dublin county board. 🙄

lukin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117652855#Comment_117652855

No you are wrong in your last paragraph there about the tribunal. Yes there should be a tribunal set up to investigate this but not to find out why this was allowed to happen; instead it should try to find out why all this investment didn't improve the standards of Dublin football one iota. Because that is what the Dub supporters keep telling us isn't it; that the money they got from the GAA did not improve the Dublin team one bit.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704729#Comment_117704729

It didn't start with the GAA, it started when Dublin footballers lost to Meath and Kildare for a few years in a row in the 1990's. Dublin didn't enjoy losing in a fair fight and saw their dominance of Leinster sliding so they then first made movements to gain financial support from their government contact. Yes, Bertie Ahern and as you have pointed out, he had a bit of a chequered past. The man who approached him was also a dodgy character. John Bailey was the Dublin county board chairman for most of the 90's and 00's. He is disgraced politician Maria Bailey's father and if you have a look at his history, you can see where she got it from.

These two dubious politicians were at the start point of this scandal but it went on to involve many others and in the end, the GAA drew up the plan for Dublin GAA, provided huge funds to put it into action and then of course there was millions of public funds placed directly into the development of Gaelic Games in Dublin. Getting any truth from Bertie Ahern or members of the Dublin County Board is highly unlikely as you say but the GAA have serious questions to answer. Can you name any sport where the Governing body actively funded and developed the sport for one competitor above all others? It's an absolute disgrace that it happened to begin with but for it to continue for almost two decades was criminal.

Enquiring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705476#Comment_117705476

Yeah, apparently the funding had no influence on the Dublin senior footballers improvements or the Dublin ladies footballers or underage hurling and football, Dublin senior hurlers, club football and hurling. Virtually every grade and code of men's and women's Gaelic Games saw an unprecedented and dramatic upturn in results but it had nothing to do with the millions of euros and huge numbers of professional coaches. Apparently.....

MarkLotek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116437892#Comment_116437892

These are national problems, which unfortunately the government does not want to solve. Or it solves these problems very slowly. We are hostages of Covid and only do what we are told to do. 

gormdubhgorm

Interesting how no detailed mention the Dublin hurlers get on this thread. Plus no mention of the disadvantage that Dublin hurlers have playing outside CP much more suited to the tight pitch of Parnell. Any astute GAA person would regnise this. It seems the Dublin senior hurlers do not get a detailed mention because it does not suit certain people's funding narrative. And would have to resort to non-sequiturs to explain it away. If the funding narrative was true in the last 15 years to now Dublin would be a hurling powerhouse.

But their only period of success came under imported manager Daly and then faded away. Also the Dublin senior hurling team had a number of key imports playing for them at that period Dwyer, Corcoran etc

Also there seems to be little realisation that changing Dublin's home games to CP was a decision decided as a financial benefit to the Leinster Council and drum up interest in the league creating a spring series.

Also it does not seem to be noted at all that the Leinster Council are/were very dependant on Dublin crowds financially .That money goes back into Leinster teams. Dublin were the cash cow for years.

It is why the Leinster council are reluctant to change the championship structure.

Also astute GAA people would realise that in the Dublin football team it is clear that the strength in depth is no longer there. The impact is not the same on the Dublin bench and so on. Shot selection and quality of off the ball movement has decreased. There are few support runners.

Also asuste GAA people will realise how weak Kildare and Meath have become in the last decade or so. They struggle to make division 1. That is of no fault of Dublin but the fault of neglect of Kildare GAA and Meath GAA. It is clear now that Meath GAA was dependant on one great manager - Boylan. And Kildare GAA's best era came when they had 'Marquee Micko' along with the 'imports' he brought with him to the county. Those two managers papered over a lot of cracks of Kildare and Meath football. When they left the fall was gradual and now stark one. That is no coincidence.

How well have Kildare and Meath done in the backdoor system which has nothing to with Dublin? Only the level of those two Leinster teams. Some counties seem to want to use Dublin as an excuse for their own falls from grace and neglect.

gormdubhgorm

Here is a look at Kildare and Meath's performances between 2010 -2020 against lesser opponents.

It is fairly eye opening when you at it trough the prism of shock defeats Meath and Kildare suffered in those years.

It is all the more stark when you look at it through the prism of population.

2010

Leinster Championship

Kildare: beaten by Louth by 7 points in the Leinster QF

Population

Kildare: 222,504

Louth: 128, 884

2012 - 2014

Leinster Championships

Meath and Kildare defeat each other

Population

Meath: 195, 444

Kildare: 222,504

--

--

2015

Leinster Championship

Meath lose to Westmeath

Population

Meath: 195,444

Westmeath: 88,700

--

--

2016

Leinster Senior Football Championship

Kildare

Scraping by Wicklow in the QF's and losing v Westmeath in the SF

Population:

Wicklow: 142,425

Kildare: 222,504

Westmeath: 88,700

(Meath 195, 444 lost to Derry in the qualifiers population 107,877. Many of whose population would not mind if the GAA would not exist)

--

--

2018

Leinster football championship

Meath

Shocked by Longford in the Leinster QF by 2 points

Kildare

Shocked by Carlow in the QF by 7 points

Population:

Meath: 195,444

Longford: 40,873

Kildare: 222,504

Carlow: 56,932

--

--

2019

Leinster football championship

Kildare

Snuck by Wicklow by 1 point

Taken to a replay by Longford winning by 11

Population:

Kildare: 222,504

Wicklow: 142,425

Longford: 40,873

--

--

So by my reckoning that is at least 5 times in the last 10 Leinster Championships where either Kildare or Meath, have been shocked by inferior footballing opponents. A 50% loss rate that should not occur that often. Given Kildare's and Meath's resources v the other Leinster counties excluding Dublin.

If you include Kildare's 2019 draw v Longford and near upset by Wicklow that is 7 times in the last 10 Leinster championships.

In my view definite questions need to be asked, because judging by many arguments population automatically leads to success.

And how come Meath and Kildare fell so far so fast relative to these smaller (less traditional) counties?