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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*
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Monaghan are an excellant example but they are a basically a single code county.
Under your proposals they would need to allocate a proportion of funding to Hurling. A potential danger is that they could start to regress at football.
While you're proposal may lead to an increase in standards in both codes in a county. We will not get to a point where all counties will be competitive in both. The numbers simply aren't there in lost counties
I have no doubt that things will be difficult but dual counties with small populations have competed for All Ireland's in both in the past. I'm not saying that every county will start competing for All Ireland's every year. They'll just be given an equal opportunity to compete.
That's what Gaelic games should be about.0 -
I have no doubt that things will be difficult but dual counties with small populations have competed for All Ireland's in both in the past. I'm not saying that every county will start competing for All Ireland's every year. They'll just be given an equal opportunity to compete.
That's what Gaelic games should be about.
In terms of duel counties with small population competing for All Irelands the only one I can think of in the last 40 years is Offaly. And they've in decline in football since the late 90's and in Hurling in the mid 00's.
So I think we can forget about most counties being truly duel.
Just to clarify under proposal would you scrape the current Hurling tiered competition structures0 -
In terms of duel counties with small population competing for All Irelands the only one I can think of in the last 40 years is Offaly. And they've in decline in football since the late 90's and in Hurling in the mid 00's.
So I think we can forget about most counties being truly duel.
Just to clarify under proposal would you scrape the current Hurling tiered competition structures
That's it and I believe Offaly have been under funded for that period. Offaly hurling was a long way ahead of Dublin hurling for example, look at the effect funding has had there. Tipperary winning the Munster title last year gives a clear sign that competing in the supposed weaker game in a county is very possible.
But as I said, every county challenging for titles every year would be very unlikely.
The aim in hurling would be moving as many counties up to the top tier as possible. The aim in football would be keeping teams in the top tier.0 -
You and the defenders of the financial disparity are the only ones who have argued that it's ok to deprive children of development funding. Your claim is that it was ok for one county to receive huge resources in this area while everyone else got very little for 2 decades.
I believe you are referring to a poster who used incorrect metrics to measure the funding distribution and then made a quick exit from the thread. Would you mind sharing with us all why Cork gained access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin?
Actually I’m referring to a poster who schooled you with their detailed knowledge of the GAA and it’s processes. It might have been in your interests to pay attention instead of trying to shoot them down to keep pushing your broken agenda.
We’ve actually covered the why on the number of coaches so many times at this stage. Again you’d benefit from listening rather than just shouting people down. One more time so
No one is disputing dublin got an excess number of gdos. It was transparent for everyone from the start of the dublin plans and everyone bought into it including the reasons for it. It’s been detailed and accounted for and openly transparent in a way no GAA scheme before or since has been. The GAA decided to trial a change of approach because county boards had been very poor at managing games development money. Hence there was a massive level of oversight applied.
Under the scheme, the GAA agreed to half fund gdos with the clubs funding the other half. The gdos role wasn’t to support the clubs it was to be a gdo same as elsewhere. The size of clubs in dublins, driven by lack of playing space and population density meant this made sense. Under this the GAA are currently paying for the equivalent of the cost of half the coaches with clubs paying the rest. My take as you’ll see below is if clubs spend their own money good luck to them, it’s no different than buying a pitch or building a clubhouse, except in Dublin buying a pitch is generally financially out of reach. Even allowing for the clubs own spend however the number actually funded by the GAA is higher than the 6 in some counties. Why? In some cases it’s simple scale - you need more coaches to promote the game to and coach 168k kids than 12k kids- frankly that’s not rocket science. Cork with their population may feel aggrieved,-with 40% of dublins population they might expect more, and if a co funding model was applied then pro rata they get get about 26 coaches and pay for half of them themselves. Certainly the clubs finding funding to do their bit has helped here, increasing resources, and indeed even the GAA were surprised at the level of buy in based on Leinster council minutes. That said, and has been pointed out, clubs everywhere were equally free to spend their own money similarly. It may have meant a pooling of resource (as the dublin clubs pooled resources with the gd plans) or even an increase in subs, to the level dublins club members pay. Individual clubs would need to explain their choices here. Certainly the cost structure is different however for example in terms of land ownership.
As has been pointed out a scheme like this would take years to be seen to work or not, with a risk associated- doing this nationwide from the off would be daft. However it’s been conceded that it could have maybe have been rolled out 2-4 years sooner, and that would have led to rebalancing from say 2014 instead of 2017. Personally I’d say 10 years to see the proof a project like this works feels closer to the right number than the 15 that happened, though there’s an argument either way. It’s notable that back in 2014-2017 however few if anyone seemed to be raising this point. That’said the GAA have rolled it out in Leinster since 2017. Leinster excluding dublin currently gets about twice the dublin allocation, supporting 118 games development personnel. As has been pointed out this level of funding isn’t just for the east Leinster project, (running for the last number of years) counties. In parallel with this we’ve seen the scaling back of dublins funding.
So why haven’t cork availed of the east Leinster project. The simple answer is they’re not in Leinster. Certainly a slice of gd funding is made available to Munster but I don’t have insight as to how the Munster council drive their business and I don’t see the point of digging through their minutes when you have no interest in the detail therein. Rebel Girl might be able to give a view but I’d be surprised if cork aren’t well able to argue for a project at provincial council if they feel it necessary and beneficial.0 -
Actually I’m referring to a poster who schooled you with their detailed knowledge of the GAA and it’s processes. It might have been in your interests to pay attention instead of trying to shoot them down to keep pushing your broken agenda.
We’ve actually covered the why on the number of coaches so many times at this stage. Again you’d benefit from listening rather than just shouting people down. One more time so
No one is disputing dublin got an excess number of gdos. It was transparent for everyone from the start of the dublin plans and everyone bought into it including the reasons for it. It’s been detailed and accounted for and openly transparent in a way no GAA scheme before or since has been. The GAA decided to trial a change of approach because county boards had been very poor at managing games development money. Hence there was a massive level of oversight applied.
Under the scheme, the GAA agreed to half fund gdos with the clubs funding the other half. The gdos role wasn’t to support the clubs it was to be a gdo same as elsewhere. The size of clubs in dublins, driven by lack of playing space and population density meant this made sense. Under this the GAA are currently paying for the equivalent of the cost of half the coaches with clubs paying the rest. My take as you’ll see below is if clubs spend their own money good luck to them, it’s no different than buying a pitch or building a clubhouse, except in Dublin buying a pitch is generally financially out of reach. Even allowing for the clubs own spend however the number actually funded by the GAA is higher than the 6 in some counties. Why? In some cases it’s simple scale - you need more coaches to promote the game to and coach 168k kids than 12k kids- frankly that’s not rocket science. Cork with their population may feel aggrieved,-with 40% of dublins population they might expect more, and if a co funding model was applied then pro rata they get get about 26 coaches and pay for half of them themselves. Certainly the clubs finding funding to do their bit has helped here, increasing resources, and indeed even the GAA were surprised at the level of buy in based on Leinster council minutes. That said, and has been pointed out, clubs everywhere were equally free to spend their own money similarly. It may have meant a pooling of resource (as the dublin clubs pooled resources with the gd plans) or even an increase in subs, to the level dublins club members pay. Individual clubs would need to explain their choices here. Certainly the cost structure is different however for example in terms of land ownership.
As has been pointed out a scheme like this would take years to be seen to work or not, with a risk associated- doing this nationwide from the off would be daft. However it’s been conceded that it could have maybe have been rolled out 2-4 years sooner. That’said the GAA have rolled it out in Leinster. Leinster excluding dublin currently gets about twice the dublin allocation, supporting 118 games development personnel. As has been pointed out this level of funding isn’t just for the east Leinster project, (running for the last number of years) counties. In parallel with this we’ve seen the scaling back of dublins funding.
So why haven’t cork availed of the east Leinster project. The simple answer is they’re not in Leinster. Certainly a slice of gd funding is made available to Munster but I don’t have insight as to how the Munster council drive their business and I don’t see the point of digging through their minutes when you have no interest in the detail therein. Rebel Girl might be able to give a view but I’d be surprised if cork aren’t well able to argue for a project at provincial council if they feel it necessary and beneficial.
The poster was using incorrect metrics and made a swift exit while making allegations of begrudgery without being able to back it up, similar to yourself.
1. The plan was drawn up and funded for Dublin. It's strange how many Dublin supporters are unaware of where the plan originated, how long it has been in operation and how much has been involved.
2. So as I suggested, it's only the defenders of the funding disparity who are ok with depriving children of access to coaches. As has been shown, every county has its own issues and many were in a worse state than Dublin. Depriving other counties in favour of Dublin was disgraceful and completely unjustified.
3. This was a Dublin only scheme. Dublin clubs weren't told to go pay for their own coaches. If land is such an issue for Dublin clubs, why are the Dublin county board spending millions on elite developments?
4. The funding wasn't distributed on a population basis. Every county received in and around the same. Leitrim, Cork, Antrim, Carlow. Only Dublin were way out in front. These are facts, they will always defeat your supposition. So you have failed to explain why it's ok for Dublin to get many multiples of the coaches available to Cork.
5. Again, you can try to ignore that the scheme began in 2002 if you want but facts again will win out. The funding improved standards in Dublin in a very short period of time. You're still adding in administrative staff into figures for Leinster, the reason for that is obvious.
So once again you have failed to justify why Dublin were and are so over funded in comparison with Cork or any other county. You have failed to provide any evidence of your claim that it was suggested that it's ok for other counties to have high income levels and you have failed to explain how we can have fair competitions with Dublin having an income of 5 and 6 million above most other counties.
It's a familiar theme at this stage. You make posts lacking in evidence and I destroy them with facts.0 -
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The poster was using incorrect metrics and made a swift exit while making allegations of begrudgery without being able to back it up, similar to yourself.
1. The plan was drawn up and funded for Dublin. It's strange how many Dublin supporters are unaware of where the plan originated, how long it has been in operation and how much has been involved.
2. So as I suggested, it's only the defenders of the funding disparity who are ok with depriving children of access to coaches. As has been shown, every county has its own issues and many were in a worse state than Dublin. Depriving other counties in favour of Dublin was disgraceful and completely unjustified.
3. This was a Dublin only scheme. Dublin clubs weren't told to go pay for their own coaches. If land is such an issue for Dublin clubs, why are the Dublin county board spending millions on elite developments?
4. The funding wasn't distributed on a population basis. Every county received in and around the same. Leitrim, Cork, Antrim, Carlow. Only Dublin were way out in front. These are facts, they will always defeat your supposition. So you have failed to explain why it's ok for Dublin to get many multiples of the coaches available to Cork.
5. Again, you can try to ignore that the scheme began in 2002 if you want but facts again will win out. The funding improved standards in Dublin in a very short period of time. You're still adding in administrative staff into figures for Leinster, the reason for that is obvious.
So once again you have failed to justify why Dublin were and are so over funded in comparison with Cork or any other county. You have failed to provide any evidence of your claim that it was suggested that it's ok for other counties to have high income levels and you have failed to explain how we can have fair competitions with Dublin having an income of 5 and 6 million above most other counties.
It's a familiar theme at this stage. You make posts lacking in evidence and I destroy them with facts.
Wow you’re getting increasingly desperate at this point. Losing this badly must be hurting. The poster schooled you good and proper. Once again when the facts don’t sit with your agenda youve attempted to rewrite the reality to suit
Unfortunately for you (and Connellan) people are well aware at this stage of the looseness of the facts you provide. The hiding away of millions in funding, the slanting and exaggeration of figures for effect (was it 100 coaches in dublins you claimed) the unwillingness to engage on the current expansion of funding that’s helping many counties hugely, based on lessons learned when the scheme was tried in dublin. The vast resources enjoyed by the likes of Mayo and Kerry, comparable to dublin and greater than many of their peers.
I’ve said repeatedly the split won’t happen and the arguments of people like Connellan and yourself are one of the reasons. They take an issue that the GAA should be and is addressing and use it to drive a paper thin agenda that most people see right through0 -
Wow you’re getting increasingly desperate at this point. Losing this badly must be hurting. The poster schooled you good and proper. Once again when the facts don’t sit with your agenda youve attempted to rewrite the reality to suit
Unfortunately for you (and Connellan) people are well aware at this stage of the looseness of the facts you provide. The hiding away of millions in funding, the slanting and exaggeration of figures for effect (was it 100 coaches in dublins you claimed) the unwillingness to engage on the current expansion of funding that’s helping many counties hugely, based on lessons learned when the scheme was tried in dublin. The vast resources enjoyed by the likes of Mayo and Kerry, comparable to dublin and greater than many of their peers.
I’ve said repeatedly the split won’t happen and the arguments of people like Connellan and yourself are one of the reasons. They take an issue that the GAA should be and is addressing and use it to drive a paper thin agenda that most people see right through
You can't answer a single question put to you, the other poster had to slink of when corrected. If this is the strength of the defence of the funding disparity, then those in favour of change are in a very strong position.
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You can't answer a single question put to you, the other poster had to slink of when corrected. If this is the strength of the defence of the funding disparity, then those in favour of change are in a very strong position.
As you're all about fairness its only fair to acknowledge that you have a flair for refusing to answer certain questions put directly to you0 -
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As you're all about fairness its only fair to acknowledge that you have a flair for refusing to answer certain questions put directly to you
The ultimate in deflection and whataboutery. But when your argument is busted and you have been schooled that is what you are reduced to. Won't confirm county allegiance or is ashamed of their roots, changes the goalposts on any point that they are corrected on. The line of argument has changed more time than Madonna re-invented herself. I admire your staying power in attempting to debate.0 -
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As you're all about fairness its only fair to acknowledge that you have a flair for refusing to answer certain questions put directly to you
I have answered all questions in relation to the topic of the thread, questions with the specific aim of deflection, less so.
But the main difference here and the only important thing in relation to this funding topic; there are questions that those opposed to the split CAN'T answer. It's not a choice, they are just unable to answer.0 -
The ultimate in deflection and whataboutery. But when your argument is busted and you have been schooled that is what you are reduced to. Won't confirm county allegiance or is ashamed of their roots, changes the goalposts on any point that they are corrected on. The line of argument has changed more time than Madonna re-invented herself. I admire your staying power in attempting to debate.
You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.
Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?
Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?0 -
Dessie Farrell no longer in favour of provincial system.0
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Interesting comments on hurling in Dublin, "significant participation numbers, in a healthy place particularly at underage in terms of the numbers and the interest."
Surely that's what games development is all about.0 -
You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.
Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?
Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?
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Because there is lot more potential kids who havent played GAA/could potentially play GAA that these development officers are assisting in Dublin.You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.
Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?
Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?
Far more of the cork population is rural and ties to GAA clubs better than in Dublin and you would expect the county with largest population etc to have far greater income than other counties.0 -
There is a case to be made for it. And he's not the only manager who has questioned wheatear the Championship structure should change
Provincial system needs to go. The perfect structure already exists in the League. A lot of the weaker teams already place more emphasis on the League over the championship, I think those players need to be catered for as opposed to keeping the coffers of provincial councils topped up.0 -
You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.
Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?
Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?
Justifying why it’s ok for Dublin to have xxxx income ? Because... this is the Republic of Ireland, it’s a democracy... if Dublin county board have a meeting with Sony next week, Sony say.. 5 million a year for 4 years if you agree....
-Sony on all shirts,
-training gear,
-bags,
-team bus,
-advertising in programs,
-x number of hoardings at home grounds...
-players do a couple of advertisements in return...
That’s a legal and private arrangement between two organizations...if I as the chairman of Dublin county board so much as received an e-mail from GAA head office trying to redistribute a proportion of that cash to other counties or blocking the ability to do a sponsorship deal I’m talking to my lawyer and conducting every move in the playbook, civil and criminal if applicable to allow Dublin to do as they legally can.
Ireland is a member of the EU.. goods, services, people AND capital are enabled to move freely between countries, companies, people and organizations.... the GAA pipe up saying Dublin owe xxxxxx just because....
Dublin might just be taking more then Sam Maguire out of croker :eek:;)0 -
Justifying why it’s ok for Dublin to have xxxx income ? Because... this is the Republic of Ireland, it’s a democracy... if Dublin county board have a meeting with Sony next week, Sony say.. 5 million a year for 4 years if you agree....
-Sony on all shirts,
-training gear,
-bags,
-team bus,
-advertising in programs,
-x number of hoardings at home grounds...
-players do a couple of advertisements in return...
That’s a legal and private arrangement between two organizations...if I as the chairman of Dublin county board so much as received an e-mail from GAA head office trying to redistribute a proportion of that cash to other counties or blocking the ability to do a sponsorship deal I’m talking to my lawyer and conducting every move in the playbook, civil and criminal if applicable to allow Dublin to do as they legally can.
Ireland is a member of the EU.. goods, services, people AND capital are enabled to move freely between countries, companies, people and organizations.... the GAA pipe up saying Dublin owe xxxxxx just because....
Dublin might just be taking more then Sam Maguire out of croker :eek:;)
Do you not see how this attitude is at odds with the whole gaa ethos though? This 'lawyer up' mentality is totally toxic and detrimental to the gaa as a whole.
Can you not see that nobody within the gaa community took this attitude when dublin were getting awarded unfair treatment, and that this was because they wanted a good dublin team who would add to the quality of the competition, even if they were going to have to foot the bill? Do you not see how badly your attitude comes across in respect to that reality?
It leads me to the conclusion that dublin fans dont really want to be part of the gaa at all. They dont really care about it. They just want dublin winning the same maguire. It is a sad reality, but it is hard to come to any other conclusion, when you consider their attitude.0 -
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This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.
I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?
What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.
So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging
But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin0 -
The Golden Miller wrote: »This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.
I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?
What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.
So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging
But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin
People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.0 -
The Golden Miller wrote: »This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.
I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?
What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.
So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging
But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin
Oh yes those poor Kerry lads, they have to clear sheep off the pitch before they play games and its just their mystical talent conveyor belt & raw natural talent that lets them compete. They would never build a 7 million euro state of the art training complex and do strength and conditioning like those dastardly Dublin players do. :rolleyes:0 -
People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.
KK have a population of 100k though, they were never going to go on indefinitely.
Dublin have a population 15 times of that so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say these things a cyclical and compare Dublin's dominance to KK's.0 -
WesternZulu wrote: »KK have a population of 100k though, they were never going to go on indefinitely.
Dublin have a population 15 times of that so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say these things a cyclical and compare Dublin's dominance to KK's.
In 2009 Kilkenny had 415 registered hurling teams.
In 2009 Dublin had 637 registered hurling teams.
Last year Kilkenny had 458 registered hurling teams.
Last year Dublin had 1,141 registered hurling teams.
That's an increase of 43 hurling teams in Kilkenny versus an increase of 451 hurling teams in Dublin.
In 2009 the breakdown for Kilkenny was
- 86 adult teams
- 293 underage teams
- 36 U21 teams
In 2009 the breakdown for Dublin was
- 108 adult teams
- 507 underage teams
- 22 U21 teams
In 2020 the breakdown for Kilkenny was
- 91 adult teams
- 329 underage teams
- 38 U20 teams
In 2020 the breakdown for Dublin was
- 128 adult teams
- 992 underage teams
- 21 U20 teams
The big takeaway is the increase in underage hurling teams in Dublin - from 507 in 2009 to 992 in 2020. The number of adult hurling teams only increased by 20 over the same time period. Inevitably over the next 10/15 years, this growth in underage numbers is going to feed through at senior level.
Kilkenny were the county with the 10th highest increase in teams over this time period. 6 counties had less teams in 2020 compared to 2009 and another 13 counties only increased their number of hurling teams by 20 or less.
This is the current situation and doesn't take into account the fact the population of Dublin is predicted to increase more than any other county over the next few years.0 -
People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.
In fairness, this has been proven to be inaccurate. Since 2011, the average age of the one off dublin team has gone down, not up. That alone disproves the whole spiel. I dont think anyone believes the comparison with kilkenny.
I dont understand how people think that dublin are going to come back into the pack. Post-unfair funding for say the last 10 years, they have opened a massive gap. They are still getting the unfair treatment, so anyone who thinks the gap is going to now reduce is in for a shock. That simply doesnt make any sense. It is either going to dtay as it is or get bigger again.
Even if they do get beaten at some stage, so what? That already happened in 2014 ffs - nothing changed. They just come back and win another 8-9 of the next 10 all irelands.
However, the real issue here is, if people are too afraid to grasp the nettle before this eventuality comes to pass, the sport could be irreversibly damaged.0 -
Just on this.
Have experience in trying to sell Data/Analysis packages to Intercounty and Club teams and the unfortunate answer so often is ‘not enough funds’.
It comes down to money dispersion moreso than population I think.
For other teams to step up to the next level, they need to invest (and they need the money to do that) in analysis and scouting.
Teams forking out fortunes for Fitness Data (STATSports) for example and yet their performance analysis expenditure is minimal.
Have spoken to Teams themselves and GAA/Camogie Association/LGFA and it’s always the same answer about money.0 -
The Golden Miller wrote: »This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.
I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?
What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.
So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging
But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin
Id agree that football died in 2011. It isnt a sporting contest any longer. The gaa sold out, but that is what you get when people on a wage make decisions that can potentially improve that wage. The sense of right and wrong gets swallowed up by that. For people to make objective decisions they need to not have skin in the game.
Re meath, I think the same can be said of most counties. Personally I think their is an apathy developing in meath to the gaa which has its roots in the scenario with their neighbours. This is evident throughout leinster I feel. If this is let develop across the country, this will have a seriously negative effect on the game in the future0 -
I always look at dublins dominance and then consider that if GAA returned to knowckout champs and Leinster could field some actual competition we may reduce the year on year dominance that has appeared.
While the population issue will mean that dublin will always have an edge - combined with the higher funding that has been given for years (in fairness to build the game in dublin and has worked) and so on. I do think the fact that the likes of Meath and Kildare being utterly useless at the time of dublins dominance hasn't helped.
I do think that with knockout football - and more competition through the whole thing for them, we could see them lose the odd game and thus have new comp winners. Mayo came close and did so for quiet some time with much less population.
I see Kerry with their up and coming team and think we could see them win some yet. Sadly its only been Mayo and Kerry to compete with them - even the northern teams are a shadow of a few years ago.
While it cannot fully be compared to KK dominance it definitely can be ended, i do think knockout champs is essential to end it though, back door for dublin and we will see them come back even if a team gets to them.
Kildare has a booming populations along with Wicklow - the game needs to be developed in other areas now - mass funding into counties outside dublin and as dublin seem to have plenty of cash a big cut for them to help pay for this other cash injection.0 -
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FileNotFound wrote: »While it cannot fully be compared to KK dominance it definitely can be ended, i do think knockout champs is essential to end it though, back door for dublin and we will see them come back even if a team gets to them.
What constitutes it ending? A one off loss? That happened in 2014. That doesnt constitute ending as far as I am concerned0
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