Enquiring wrote: » Wrong again. You're consistent in that if nothing else. The funding disparity apologists see a vision of continuing with one county having an income of 5 and 6 million more than most others and spending close to 4 million on player development yearly. I don't think you'll have any answer as to why you think that would lead to fair competitions? In fact it's not the only thing you can't answer. Why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players have access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin for example.
Enquiring wrote: » Like with Dublin in 2002, each county will have their own task force set up to best identify what is needed to improve all areas of Gaelic games, participation, especially female participation, hurling, football, camógie, elite standards etc. This will all have to be costed of course but it's important to get one key element right in my opinion. Now this is going to sound absurd to those who want the status quo to remain. If there's an imbalance in the funding, it should be in favour of the weaker counties, the ones without natural advantages. For some reason, the GAA decided to do the opposite two decades ago. They over funded Dublin to the detriment of all others. Now, obviously without any analysis done as yet, the details of what each county will get can't be known. The vision would be that every county would have an equal opportunity to compete in all competitions. Of course there is always population differences but that can be overcome. If it's population and resources that are lacking, then it's almost impossible. Each county will have officials put in place to oversee the implementation of the plan created for their county. They will have targets and standards to maintain. Other things like caps on spending, pooled sponsorship etc will also need to be looked at. That's a basic outline of what I view as a fair system that we should have in place.
tritium wrote: » Whereas you’re happy with a few counties having an income several multiples and several millions more than other counties. Funny how once you got called on that and the clear requirement to split the mayos and Kerry’s as a consequence how you suddenly put population back on the table I wonder why that would be......
SheepsClothing wrote: » If Dublin want to be allocated funding on a per capita basis, they should be fielding multiple teams to support all those people being funded. You can't receive the funding of a province while fielding one team, it's nonsense.
tritium wrote: » The clear point is they’re not being funded on a per capita basis. On a per capita basis the rest of Leinster is getting twice what dublin is, in spite of Connellans long stream of disingenuous misinformation in a national newspaper. My own view is simple and already repeatedly given. Games dev is very distinct from elite and inter county the only connect should be in terms of maybe bringing more people into the process that elite might eventually interact with. The aim is to give every child an opportunity to participate and learn skills. As such it has to be done with a starting point of funding per child. People looking to take funding away from kids so their county can win a bit of tin really don’t get very much respect from me. And before someone says what about cork (they’ll move on to what about Antrim or Laois soon enough). We have a very competent and knowledgable poster here who can talk to what cork are and have being doing. They’ve already given their perspective and unless someone has the detailed knowledge of the working of Munster GAA to contradict them I’m happy to run withless that. They have also correctly identified the begrudgery and small mindedness at the heart of the anti dublin argument
ShyMets wrote: » Thanks for taking the time to reply. So in essence the Task Force would plan the funding needed in each county. Now as each county will want to maximize funding is there not a danger that task forces will inflate the level of funding needed. So then there would need to be vetting structure and a cap on total spending. And to ensure teams can not spend more you would be agreeable to a ban of county teams privately raising money I do disagree regarding population. Some counties because of their low population numbers will never truly be competitive. Yes you can improve standards but lack of numbers will tell in the end
the kelt wrote: » Exactly. Turning professional of course is a natural next step if something isnt done, that imho will end up in Dublin being split in more than 2 or even 4. The birth of professional super clubs could end the GAA as we know it the way things are going. With complete dominance people will stop watching, people will stop going, even in Dublin itself there are so many talented footballers who will never wear a county jersey. People laugh at the idea of a pro or semi pro club competition but ignore whats staring them in the face. Already we have not only Dublins best but many of the countrys best playing club football in Dublin..
tritium wrote: » People looking to take funding away from kids so their county can win a bit of tin really don’t get very much respect from me. And before someone says what about cork (they’ll move on to what about Antrim or Laois soon enough). We have a very competent and knowledgable poster here who can talk to what cork are and have being doing. They’ve already given their perspective and unless someone has the detailed knowledge of the working of Munster GAA to contradict them I’m happy to run with that. They have also correctly identified the begrudgery and small mindedness at the heart of the anti dublin argument
Enquiring wrote: » Well over 20 counties have won provincials since the 90's. Monaghan with 60,000 are a good example of competing with a small population in football. The task force would present their findings but the ultimate decision on the level of resources would rest with HQ. If in doubt or resources are tight, side with the smaller counties. The release of accounts for last year and the huge loses have brought county spends into question. It looks like action is been taken in terms of spend on inter county teams. The same needs to be taken in all areas. So yes, private donations etc need to be regulated. Counties can't be allowed to use finance gained elsewhere to gain an advantage. I think with increased funding, clubs structures will improve hugely in many counties, participation will increase, standards will increase and our inter county games will hopefully see an increase in competitive counties. I think hurling and ladies football and camógie will see the biggest benefit.
ShyMets wrote: » Monaghan are an excellant example but they are a basically a single code county. Under your proposals they would need to allocate a proportion of funding to Hurling. A potential danger is that they could start to regress at football. While you're proposal may lead to an increase in standards in both codes in a county. We will not get to a point where all counties will be competitive in both. The numbers simply aren't there in lost counties
Enquiring wrote: » I have no doubt that things will be difficult but dual counties with small populations have competed for All Ireland's in both in the past. I'm not saying that every county will start competing for All Ireland's every year. They'll just be given an equal opportunity to compete. That's what Gaelic games should be about.
ShyMets wrote: » In terms of duel counties with small population competing for All Irelands the only one I can think of in the last 40 years is Offaly. And they've in decline in football since the late 90's and in Hurling in the mid 00's. So I think we can forget about most counties being truly duel. Just to clarify under proposal would you scrape the current Hurling tiered competition structures
Enquiring wrote: » You and the defenders of the financial disparity are the only ones who have argued that it's ok to deprive children of development funding. Your claim is that it was ok for one county to receive huge resources in this area while everyone else got very little for 2 decades. I believe you are referring to a poster who used incorrect metrics to measure the funding distribution and then made a quick exit from the thread. Would you mind sharing with us all why Cork gained access to fractions of the number of coaches available to Dublin?
tritium wrote: » Actually I’m referring to a poster who schooled you with their detailed knowledge of the GAA and it’s processes. It might have been in your interests to pay attention instead of trying to shoot them down to keep pushing your broken agenda. We’ve actually covered the why on the number of coaches so many times at this stage. Again you’d benefit from listening rather than just shouting people down. One more time so No one is disputing dublin got an excess number of gdos. It was transparent for everyone from the start of the dublin plans and everyone bought into it including the reasons for it. It’s been detailed and accounted for and openly transparent in a way no GAA scheme before or since has been. The GAA decided to trial a change of approach because county boards had been very poor at managing games development money. Hence there was a massive level of oversight applied. Under the scheme, the GAA agreed to half fund gdos with the clubs funding the other half. The gdos role wasn’t to support the clubs it was to be a gdo same as elsewhere. The size of clubs in dublins, driven by lack of playing space and population density meant this made sense. Under this the GAA are currently paying for the equivalent of the cost of half the coaches with clubs paying the rest. My take as you’ll see below is if clubs spend their own money good luck to them, it’s no different than buying a pitch or building a clubhouse, except in Dublin buying a pitch is generally financially out of reach. Even allowing for the clubs own spend however the number actually funded by the GAA is higher than the 6 in some counties. Why? In some cases it’s simple scale - you need more coaches to promote the game to and coach 168k kids than 12k kids- frankly that’s not rocket science. Cork with their population may feel aggrieved,-with 40% of dublins population they might expect more, and if a co funding model was applied then pro rata they get get about 26 coaches and pay for half of them themselves. Certainly the clubs finding funding to do their bit has helped here, increasing resources, and indeed even the GAA were surprised at the level of buy in based on Leinster council minutes. That said, and has been pointed out, clubs everywhere were equally free to spend their own money similarly. It may have meant a pooling of resource (as the dublin clubs pooled resources with the gd plans) or even an increase in subs, to the level dublins club members pay. Individual clubs would need to explain their choices here. Certainly the cost structure is different however for example in terms of land ownership. As has been pointed out a scheme like this would take years to be seen to work or not, with a risk associated- doing this nationwide from the off would be daft. However it’s been conceded that it could have maybe have been rolled out 2-4 years sooner. That’said the GAA have rolled it out in Leinster. Leinster excluding dublin currently gets about twice the dublin allocation, supporting 118 games development personnel. As has been pointed out this level of funding isn’t just for the east Leinster project, (running for the last number of years) counties. In parallel with this we’ve seen the scaling back of dublins funding. So why haven’t cork availed of the east Leinster project. The simple answer is they’re not in Leinster. Certainly a slice of gd funding is made available to Munster but I don’t have insight as to how the Munster council drive their business and I don’t see the point of digging through their minutes when you have no interest in the detail therein. Rebel Girl might be able to give a view but I’d be surprised if cork aren’t well able to argue for a project at provincial council if they feel it necessary and beneficial.
Enquiring wrote: » The poster was using incorrect metrics and made a swift exit while making allegations of begrudgery without being able to back it up, similar to yourself. 1. The plan was drawn up and funded for Dublin. It's strange how many Dublin supporters are unaware of where the plan originated, how long it has been in operation and how much has been involved. 2. So as I suggested, it's only the defenders of the funding disparity who are ok with depriving children of access to coaches. As has been shown, every county has its own issues and many were in a worse state than Dublin. Depriving other counties in favour of Dublin was disgraceful and completely unjustified. 3. This was a Dublin only scheme. Dublin clubs weren't told to go pay for their own coaches. If land is such an issue for Dublin clubs, why are the Dublin county board spending millions on elite developments? 4. The funding wasn't distributed on a population basis. Every county received in and around the same. Leitrim, Cork, Antrim, Carlow. Only Dublin were way out in front. These are facts, they will always defeat your supposition. So you have failed to explain why it's ok for Dublin to get many multiples of the coaches available to Cork. 5. Again, you can try to ignore that the scheme began in 2002 if you want but facts again will win out. The funding improved standards in Dublin in a very short period of time. You're still adding in administrative staff into figures for Leinster, the reason for that is obvious. So once again you have failed to justify why Dublin were and are so over funded in comparison with Cork or any other county. You have failed to provide any evidence of your claim that it was suggested that it's ok for other counties to have high income levels and you have failed to explain how we can have fair competitions with Dublin having an income of 5 and 6 million above most other counties. It's a familiar theme at this stage. You make posts lacking in evidence and I destroy them with facts.
tritium wrote: » Wow you’re getting increasingly desperate at this point. Losing this badly must be hurting. The poster schooled you good and proper. Once again when the facts don’t sit with your agenda youve attempted to rewrite the reality to suit Unfortunately for you (and Connellan) people are well aware at this stage of the looseness of the facts you provide. The hiding away of millions in funding, the slanting and exaggeration of figures for effect (was it 100 coaches in dublins you claimed) the unwillingness to engage on the current expansion of funding that’s helping many counties hugely, based on lessons learned when the scheme was tried in dublin. The vast resources enjoyed by the likes of Mayo and Kerry, comparable to dublin and greater than many of their peers. I’ve said repeatedly the split won’t happen and the arguments of people like Connellan and yourself are one of the reasons. They take an issue that the GAA should be and is addressing and use it to drive a paper thin agenda that most people see right through
Enquiring wrote: » You can't answer a single question put to you, the other poster had to slink of when corrected. If this is the strength of the defence of the funding disparity, then those in favour of change are in a very strong position.
ShyMets wrote: » As you're all about fairness its only fair to acknowledge that you have a flair for refusing to answer certain questions put directly to you
ArielAtom wrote: » The ultimate in deflection and whataboutery. But when your argument is busted and you have been schooled that is what you are reduced to. Won't confirm county allegiance or is ashamed of their roots, changes the goalposts on any point that they are corrected on. The line of argument has changed more time than Madonna re-invented herself. I admire your staying power in attempting to debate.
RoyalCelt wrote: » Dessie Farrell no longer in favour of provincial system.
Enquiring wrote: » You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two. Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have? Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?
ShyMets wrote: » There is a case to be made for it. And he's not the only manager who has questioned wheatear the Championship structure should change
