Nora Quoirin. [Read mod note in post #1 - updated 14/08]

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why do you think you have offended me? Perhaps you are projecting?

I for one am tired of trying to tip-toe around posters like you. You jump on a phrase and twist it to fulfil your own personal agenda.

Your posts are not part of discussion but only aim to shut down down discussion by attacking what you imagine are my motives.

You are wrong.

If you can't handle civilised discussion on a discussion forum, perhaps this kind of thing just isn't for you?

Ok let’s discuss the subject in hand. I have no idea what happened the child. Why? Because I haven’t yet seen or heard any legally verified evidence from either of the two sides in this case. I’ve certainly seen absolutely no evidence that the child’s parents have any responsibility at all in her demise. Therefore I think it’s scurrilous of anyone to even hint, especially in a sneaky underhand manner, that they may be responsible.
So that’s my own position. What about yourself? Have you seen or heard any undisputed evidence that her parents may bear any responsibility? If you haven’t, then why would you hint at it?
Over to you.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

Ok let’s discuss the subject in hand. I have no idea what happened the child. Why? Because I haven’t yet seen or heard any legally verified evidence from either of the two sides in this case. I’ve certainly seen absolutely no evidence that the child’s parents have any responsibility at all in her demise. Therefore I think it’s scurrilous of anyone to even hint, especially in a sneaky underhand manner, that they may be responsible.
So that’s my own position. What about yourself? Have you seen or heard any undisputed evidence that her parents may bear any responsibility? If you haven’t, then why would you hint at it?
Over to you.

Firstly, calm down. Your last couple of posts are coming across as hysterical. No one but YOU has said the parents are in any way responsible for their daughter's death. And no one I see here is hinting at it.

Second, I haven't made any sneaky digs. I was going to apologise if you perceived it that way, or if I worded it harshly, but why would I need to apologise to you for that?

Third, lets discuss the actual topic: the circumstances of this poor child's death are almost too painful to contemplate. Lost in a jungle, alone, hungry, afraid, it's like a nightmare.

So far the narrative is that she let herself out through a window and wandered into the jungle, seemingly hiding from those who searched from her until she succumbed to a painful and lonely death.

The parents dispute this and have now asked for an inquiry and are taking the resort to court for negligence. Certainly not the actions of anyone bearing any guilt. They believe Nora was abducted and the Resort should have had better security to prevent that.


So that's all we know. And therefore people might wonder - maybe there was a kidnapper, maybe the resort are responsible, maybe the police didn't do their job, maybe the parents could have been more alert to any danger, maybe all of those things, maybe none

You don't get to set the rules as to what we are allowed to think.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

But how could you “see” anything when you know absolutely nothing about it?
Why don’t you want due process to take place? You know, an actual court case where all the evidence will be laid out?
Why are you summarily dismissing evidence you haven’t actually seen or heard yet?
Could it be that you’ve decided that the parents are to blame for the death of their daughter and any other conclusion will mean that you are wrong and that’s just not on?

All what evidence? From memory the cause of death was lack of food and water. There was no signs of physical or sexual assault. The cottage door was locked from the inside by her parents before they went to bed. Your mystic meg ****e is exactly that, ****e.

JJayoo

I have a Question

If Nora was physically/sexually assaulted, how long would the evidence stay visible?

By this I mean if she was attacked on day one will their be evidence of the attack on day 7/8/9?

She died a short time before she was found, could a possible attacker have kept her alive for a period of time to allow possible injuries to heal?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

JJayoo wrote: »

I have a Question

If Nora was physically/sexually assaulted, how long would the evidence stay visible?

By this I mean if she was attacked on day one will their be evidence of the attack on day 7/8/9?

She died a short time before she was found, could a possible attacker have kept her alive for a period of time to allow possible injuries to heal?

I don't think there was any information given to indicate that there was foul play or a third party involved.

An inquest would thrash out the facts and the timeline and might answer some of the questions but the authorities there seem satisfied that there was nobody involved with her going missing.

Still doesn't really answer how she managed to go missing in the first place and why she wasn't found despite the huge search and evidence showing that she had survived a long period while missing.

It's terribly sad, a mystery all the same.

Graces7

As there was no inquest, these questions did not get answered which is in itself a cause for concern.

JP Liz V1

Graces7 wrote: »

As there was no inquest, these questions did not get answered which is in itself a cause for concern.

Looks like an inquest is finally happening

This inquest started today. Is streamed live on YouTube in the mornings but not all in english obviously.

AndyBoBandy

Didn't see it posted anywhere, but the results of the inquest yesterday announced that no others were involved in Nora going missing, and therefore no foul play was involved.

As extremely tragic as this whole case was, I couldn't help but be a little bemused that the parents are bitterly disappointed that no one else was involved in the disappearance of Nora. They believe that foul play was involved.

Would you (as a parent), not be slightly relieved (I know not the best choice of word..) that the girl wasn't abducted and sexually assaulted?
This was a tragedy that they feel someone unknown is responsible for.

As awful as it must have been for poor Nora, it would have been a million times worse for her if she was abducted and assaulted as the parents believe, despite a lack of evidence to support such a theory.

I don't know, it just seems odd their reaction to the inquest..

This is it

I suppose if you feel and believe that there was foul play, to hear someone oppose that would spark a reaction. Can't imagine how they're feeling

spaceHopper

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Didn't see it posted anywhere, but the results of the inquest yesterday announced that no others were involved in Nora going missing, and therefore no foul play was involved.

As extremely tragic as this whole case was, I couldn't help but be a little bemused that the parents are bitterly disappointed that no one else was involved in the disappearance of Nora. They believe that foul play was involved.

Would you (as a parent), not be slightly relieved (I know not the best choice of word..) that the girl wasn't abducted and sexually assaulted?
This was a tragedy that they feel someone unknown is responsible for.

As awful as it must have been for poor Nora, it would have been a million times worse for her if she was abducted and assaulted as the parents believe, despite a lack of evidence to support such a theory.

I don't know, it just seems odd their reaction to the inquest..

She didn't walk off on her own she wasn't able to. Also she had no shoes was found in a very hard to reach spot yet her feet weren't cut up. Her family don't for one second believe that nobody was involved.

whisky_galore

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The parents are claiming that the resorts security was lax , the gate was left open and they felt it should have been locked

Are most resorts kitted out like Fort Knox as a matter of course? I doubt it, unless they are in an area with a tourist crime problem.

Effects

spaceHopper wrote: »

Also she had no shoes was found in a very hard to reach spot yet her feet weren't cut up.

Was this question put to the coroner?

NIMAN

This is a terribly sad case, but I assume its being hinted at that there's a conspiracy or cover-up going on?

If the coroner examined her body, and has recorded no third party was involved in the death, it must follow that the family don't believe this.

Have they other evidence to back up their case?

Parabellum9

Very sad case but I think the parents need to accept the verdict here. They are the ones who took a physically and mentally challenged child to a resort in the middle of a jungle - and the consensus has been that the child woke in the night bewildered and climbed out a window. Sometimes the answers to a question are not that complex.

McCrack

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Didn't see it posted anywhere, but the results of the inquest yesterday announced that no others were involved in Nora going missing, and therefore no foul play was involved.

As extremely tragic as this whole case was, I couldn't help but be a little bemused that the parents are bitterly disappointed that no one else was involved in the disappearance of Nora. They believe that foul play was involved.

Would you (as a parent), not be slightly relieved (I know not the best choice of word..) that the girl wasn't abducted and sexually assaulted?
This was a tragedy that they feel someone unknown is responsible for.

As awful as it must have been for poor Nora, it would have been a million times worse for her if she was abducted and assaulted as the parents believe, despite a lack of evidence to support such a theory.

I don't know, it just seems odd their reaction to the inquest..

It seems the parents have their own views that foul play was involved to absolve them from any possible criticism

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

It seems the parents have their own views that foul play was involved to absolve them from any possible criticism

I'm sure this will be hugely difficult for them to deal with until the day they die. Its the most appalling tragedy. A huge strain on a relationship too.

Muahahaha

McCrack wrote: »

It seems the parents have their own views that foul play was involved to absolve them from any possible criticism

Yeah I think thats the nail on the head here. Understandably behind closed doors the parents are likely blaming themselves but the foul play element they are talking about is like a defence mechanism to not admit that. Its not that it was the parents fault or anything and they're not to blame but as parents they will feel like they are underneath and will be constantly questioning themselves if they did something wrong. Ive a lot of sympathy for them because I dont think they could have predicted her waking up in the middle of the night and walking off into the jungle alone.

I think if there is to be any criticism in this case it must lie with the search party led by the Malaysian army. In the end she was found just 1.2 miles from her bedroom and while that is not a small distance its not like she marched a long way away either. She was not found until day 7 by which time it was too late. Im no expert on search and rescue but youd think you would first start with a 1km radius from the resort and search that on day one, then on day 2 you extend that out from a 1-2km radius. If done correctly she should have been found on day 2 at which point she was likely still alive.

The other point is that she wasnt found in the jungle area of the resort but instead on a neighbouring palm oil plantation. These plantations are all over Malaysia (especually Borneo) and they are not in dense foresty or anything, what they are is farms with rows of hundreds of palm oil trees, a cleared forest floor and you can see and walk for hundreds of metres between them. Their canopies would mean helicopter searches are useless but on the forest floor itself there is loads of space and sightlines. I just dont get how it took 7 days to find her, they had to have been in the area where she was on days 1,2 or 3 but they missed her and continued on searching even further out before finally coming back to areas they already thought they had covered and finding her then, by which time it was too late.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah I think thats the nail on the head here. Understandably behind closed doors the parents are likely blaming themselves but the foul play element they are talking about is like a defence mechanism to not admit that. Its not that it was the parents fault or anything and they're not to blame but as parents they will feel like they are underneath and will be constantly questioning themselves if they did something wrong. Ive a lot of sympathy for them because I dont think they could have predicted her waking up in the middle of the night and walking off into the jungle alone.

I think if there is to be any criticism in this case it must lie with the search party led by the Malaysian army. In the end she was found just 1.2 miles from her bedroom and while that is not a small distance its not like she marched a long way away either. She was not found until day 7 by which time it was too late. Im no expert on search and rescue but youd think you would first start with a 1km radius from the resort and search that on day one, then on day 2 you extend that out from a 1-2km radius. If done correctly she should have been found on day 2 at which point she was likely still alive.

The other point is that she wasnt found in the jungle area of the resort but instead on a neighbouring palm oil plantation. These plantations are all over Malaysia (especually Borneo) and they are not in dense foresty or anything, what they are is farms with rows of hundreds of palm oil trees, a cleared forest floor and you can see and walk for hundreds of metres between them. Their canopies would mean helicopter searches are useless but on the forest floor itself there is loads of space and sightlines. I just dont get how it took 7 days to find her, they had to have been in the area where she was on days 1,2 or 3 but they missed her and continued on searching even further out before finally coming back to areas they already thought they had covered and finding her then, by which time it was too late.

The poor parents, if reading this, should never blame themselves in any way. They 100% provided the wonderful and stimulating life that their precious daughter experienced. Nora could have felt, in her way, what a wonderful adventure, and used every unknown resource she could summons, in spite of severe neurological deficits, to creep around her new environment in wonderment. It is likely she experienced a wonderful adventure and that simple physiology rendered her sleepy, unconscious, and very sadly deceased.

zanador

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The poor parents, if reading this, should never blame themselves in any way. They 100% provided the wonderful and stimulating life that their precious daughter experienced. Nora could have felt, in her way, what a wonderful adventure, and used every unknown resource she could summons, in spite of severe neurological deficits, to creep around her new environment in wonderment. It is likely she experienced a wonderful adventure and that simple physiology rendered her sleepy, unconscious, and very sadly deceased.

Just want to agree with this 100%

JP Liz V1

spaceHopper wrote: »

She didn't walk off on her own she wasn't able to. Also she had no shoes was found in a very hard to reach spot yet her feet weren't cut up. Her family don't for one second believe that nobody was involved.

There a lot of unanswered questions, hard to get closure if that is ever possible

I feel for the family

Sweet.Science

This stinks

Foul play more likely than not if what her mother just said on the news is correct

conorhal

Parabellum9 wrote: »

Very sad case but I think the parents need to accept the verdict here. They are the ones who took a physically and mentally challenged child to a resort in the middle of a jungle - and the consensus has been that the child woke in the night bewildered and climbed out a window. Sometimes the answers to a question are not that complex.

This I know personally from the experience of a friend that was killed in a car accident on his way home from a Christmas party late at night.

He fell asleep at the wheel and drifted into the back of a truck parked up on the hard shoulder of the motorway.

It was tragic and it haunts me to this day, not least because I had intended to offer him a place to stay up Dublin rather than him driving home after the party, but I lost track of him over the course of the night and never got to say to him, "hey, if you need a place to stay tonight rather than driving home, (because he wasn't drinking that night for that purpose) then stay at my gaff".
His dad just could not come to terms with the random and tragic circumstances of his death.

Inconsistencies, in his mind, related to the where his sons body (or parts of it, I won't go into details because a car crash at that speed is an horrific event) in the car suggested to him that that the truck was moved before the police arrived or wasn't exactly where it was parked, haunted him.

It became an obsession for him, 'the forensics of how and why', but it was an obsession that would not change the simple fact that his son was dead. It was the obsession of, 'if only this or if only that' and he wanted anyone to blame or justify a totally random and tragic event.
Life is random and tragic, and joyful and strange, and it always ends.
No ending is neat and easily surmised. No circumstance is entirely knowable and he just could not accept that reality.

AndrewJRenko

Sweet.Science wrote: »

This stinks

Foul play more likely than not if what her mother just said on the news is correct

What did she say?

N365

Although I hope it wasn’t the case I always thought there was foul play in this case.

Muahahaha

New development

A Malaysian court has overturned an inquest verdict of "misadventure" in the death of Nóra Quoirin who vanished in the jungle, replacing it with an "open" ruling in a victory for her family.

The initial verdict indicated the death was accidental, but the new ruling suggests there are still questions to be answered in the case and leaves open the possibility of criminal involvement. The body of Nóra Quoirin, a 15-year-old with learning difficulties, was discovered after a huge hunt through the rainforest following her disappearance from a resort outside Kuala Lumpur in 2019.

In January, a coroner handed down the misadventure ruling and said no one else was involved. But her London-based parents, who have dismissed authorities' claims their daughter wandered into the jungle alone at night and believe she was abducted, said they were "utterly disappointed". They lodged a challenge, seeking to have the ruling revised to an open verdict.

Judge Azizul Azmi Adnan ruled in their favour today, telling the Seremban High Court, outside Kuala Lumpur, that "in the interests of justice" the misadventure verdict should be overturned and substituted with an open ruling.

"There was no credible evidence to support any other verdict," he added.

More details here
https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0616/1228424-nora-quoirin/

It seems the verdict leaves open the possibility of abduction but doesnt go any further than that

Knine

As a parent of a similar child, I never thought she would wander away either. Until the day she did. She decided to go down to the beach on her own from a caravan park. I spotted her & followed her to see what she would do. Not a care given as she wandered around the beach! I do believe it is quite possible she wandered by herself.

Awful tragic case whatever happened

fits

I’m also a parent of a similar child although he’s much younger. My theory is that she was looking for something and became disorientated very quickly once she got outside in the dark.

It’s horribly sad and tortuous for her family.

WrenBoy

Is it realistic to get answers at this late stage, I know cold cases do get solved but what is the rate 1/1000 ?
Hopefully the authorities are committed to solving this and not just placating the parents with this decision. Awful situation either way still.

Muahahaha

WrenBoy wrote: »

Is it realistic to get answers at this late stage, I know cold cases do get solved but what is the rate 1/1000 ?
Hopefully the authorities are committed to solving this and not just placating the parents with this decision. Awful situation either way still.

Yeah I dont think there will be any definitive answers. The open verdict still means it could have been misadventure and thats what everything would seem to point to as well. The coroner didnt find any evidence of assault or sexual assault and no DNA of an unknown person. Her death was recorded as being from starvation and internal bleeding. So while there might be an open verdict there doesnt seem to be any good evidence that a crime took place here.

I think the saddest aspect of this case is that when they found her after 10 days of searching she wasnt all that far from the resort. They almost certainly missed her on the first sweep of the area she was in and didnt return to that area for more than a week. Had they found her on the first sweep on day one or two then she would have had a good chance of being saved. Its sad to think that there was a chance of having a better outcome here, RIP Nora.