The glorious 12th

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Whataboutery again. I'm not asking you to respect the GAA and I don't think they're looking to march through towns with known murderers officiating.

There are unionist bands that commemorate unionist murderers like those who massacred the 5 men in the bookies.

So we have the Orange Order with Shankill Butcher members, and goodness knows who else, in its ranks and bands that commemorate mass murderers.

Do you want people to respect that?

It nonsense orange hating stuff.
Firstly I don’t know this person and I don’t know where their head is is now re the abhorrent sectarian killing of innocent Catholics 40 years ago.
The OO is representative of the Protestant community and it seems inevitable that the likes of him will be in it as he lives in the community.
What exactly are you inferring - that we throw away the key on sectarian killers. David ervine is an example of positive change.
You really are clutching at straws on this one. Especially given that your community continues to elect many sectarian killers at every election.
So tell me , what are you saying? and stop the riddles

facehugger99

It's funny the lads that most want unification with NI are the same ones who absolutely hate over half the population up there.

Del.Monte

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's funny the lads that most want unification with NI are the same ones who absolutely hate over half the population up there.

Not really, they expect anybody with a different political view to shut-up or leave after unity.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

So tell me , what are you saying?

A culture that openly celebrates unionist killers and even has them officiating at events is not entitled to respect from anyone and especially not from the community these killers targeted at random to sate their blood lust.

You are on a different planet.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A culture that openly celebrates unionist killers and even has them officiating at events is not entitled to respect from anyone and especially not from the community these killers targeted at random to sate their blood lust.

You are on a different planet.

What about answering the question Tom. Is it to difficult. Maybe you elect past sectarian killers so you don’t like the comparison

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

What about answering the question Tom. Is it to difficult. Maybe you elect past sectarian killers so you don’t like the comparison

I am not asking you to respect anyone and I'm certainly not asking you to respect the commemoration of Republican killers under the guise of 'culture'.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's funny the lads that most want unification with NI are the same ones who absolutely hate over half the population up there.

Facehugger gets the maths spectacularly wrong again.

If you think downcow is representative of the average Unionist you confirm my suspicions. You know nothing about the north.

downcow comes from the belligerent part of Unionism, the never never never branch that never admits to being a huge part of the problem in northern Ireland.

He tries to hide it, but key questions always reveal them. He is always the primary victim.

mattser

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's funny the lads that most want unification with NI are the same ones who absolutely hate over half the population up there.

The mask has slipped so far, they're actually tripping over it, and try to hide the fact with the usual weasel words.

UI my ass.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I know orangemen who married Catholics so I don’t think you are accurate there.

It’s not so long since the gaa would kick you out for joining the army but celebrate you killing soldiers. And as far as I am aware the majority of gaa north of the border voted to keep that position but they were overruled by their less sectarian counterparts in the south

...and again we get the 'look over there at themuns' rather than deal with what is happening in his own community.

The Orange Order resolve again and again to bolster their identity by actively campaigning against the rights of the Irish identity.
It is no accident that the DUP have the same political stance as they have on Irish Rights legislation for instance.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

...and again we get the 'look over there at themuns' rather than deal with what is happening in his own community

This is the problem. Some people want to put the Unionist culture under a microscope, looking for all the flaws. Some do it to intentionally deflect away from the disgusting sectarian nature of the ira and their supporters. Others sadly believe the unionists were the problem and the nationalist a pretty clean
Quoting ‘no stone unturned’ was a classic. Same mentality. Pick one atrocity against nationalists and create a mist of fact and fiction and stir it all together to create a new narrative that ruc hampered all investigations into attacks on nationalists.
I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear the put up or shut up

FrancieBrady

mattser wrote: »

The mask has slipped so far, they're actually tripping over it, and try to hide the fact with the usual weasel words.

UI my ass.

If you think the majority of the Unionist community is going around getting offended by the Irish language or a fleadh, then you have bought the propaganda/we are the victims speel represented by downcow. It is rubbish.

This 'offence' is coming from the rear end of belligerent Unionism, promoted by an Orange Order whose membership is in terminal decline because it has no mechanism to modernise (from 70,000 down to 30,000 approx in 30 years) unless it gets rid of it's very reason to exist.

Modern moderate unionism is having less and less to do with it, and long may that continue.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is the problem. Some people want to put the Unionist culture under a microscope, looking for all the flaws. Some do it to intentionally deflect away from the disgusting sectarian nature of the ira and their supporters. Others sadly believe the unionists were the problem and the nationalist a pretty clean
Quoting ‘no stone unturned’ was a classic. Same mentality. Pick one atrocity against nationalists and create a mist of fact and fiction and stir it all together to create a new narrative that ruc hampered all investigations into attacks on nationalists.
I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear the put up or shut up

What was 'nonfactual' in 'No Stone Unturned'. You do know the classic caricature of the guy ringing the radio to 'complain' about something he hasn't watched?

Can you illuminate what was lied about in it?

And absolutely nobody on here is in denial about the purely sectarian acts carried out by republicans. Nobody.

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Well I don’t have the energy for the tit for tat but I am sure you would not disagree that a very large number of the sectarian killers of the ira were much loved members of the gaa.

Meh....gaa a million plus member orange order less than 30K


Something very off about orange order containing more sectariam murderers imo

_blaaz

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's funny the lads that most want unification with NI are the same ones who absolutely hate over half the population up there.

Plenty of unionist hate and want nothing orange men too?


Its kinda like they dislike being associated with a version of the kkk.....its nearly dead as an organisation anyway....soon enough there will be more scientologists here than orangemen

facehugger99

_blaaz wrote: »

Plenty of unionist hate and want nothing orange men too?

You want to have another run at that sentence mate?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you think the majority of the Unionist community is going around getting offended by the Irish language or a fleadh, then you have bought the propaganda/we are the victims speel represented by downcow. It is rubbish.

This 'offence' is coming from the rear end of belligerent Unionism, promoted by an Orange Order whose membership is in terminal decline because it has no mechanism to modernise (from 70,000 down to 30,000 approx in 30 years) unless it gets rid of it's very reason to exist.

Modern moderate unionism is having less and less to do with it, and long may that continue.

Sure just ignore the facts again francie. There are some very very moderate voices in the UUP and not one single one of them is supportive of an IL act and I have honestly never met one unionist that is. We disagree over many things but this ain’t one of them
But of course you may have evidence to the contrary. And I expect you will find one exception somewhere in google but hey

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What was 'nonfactual' in 'No Stone Unturned'. You do know the classic caricature of the guy ringing the radio to 'complain' about something he hasn't watched?

Can you illuminate what was lied about in it?

And absolutely nobody on here is in denial about the purely sectarian acts carried out by republicans. Nobody.

Francie your spinning again. You still think the purely sectarian attacks by the ira were the exception when in fact they were the norm.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

You want to have another run at that sentence mate?

What downcow and other belligerent unionists cannot abide is a softening of the lines between north and south.
They will ramp up the rethoric, and point the finger. Their political reps will pull rabble rousing stunts like Arlene refusing to recognise our independence and insist on bolstering their identity by denying others theirs.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What was 'nonfactual' in 'No Stone Unturned'. You do know the classic caricature of the guy ringing the radio to 'complain' about something he hasn't watched?

Can you illuminate what was lied about in it?

And absolutely nobody on here is in denial about the purely sectarian acts carried out by republicans. Nobody.

I never mentioned lies. I said fiction. Do you really believe it’s a factual documentary.
And I said I haven’t watched it but I know a little of the case as I live in the locality.
Nationalists have been hoodwinked hook line and sinker by it.
So back to my question which you ducked as usual with a question to me.

“I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear then put up or shut up??”

citytillidie

downcow wrote: »

Who is telling you this stuff. I’m watching 10 o’clock news and I am sure I can see the flag flying loud and proud , unless this is one of the days they are allowed to fly it in England.

How about you proposing designated days for flying flags in roi.

I could not care less about a state flag flying were it is supposed to be flying in city hall and such.

Just find it funny when it was put forward that the flag only fly on the designated days Belfast was shut down over it as some people got upset over a bit of material that they may not have notice 99% of the time.

Why would I go about looking to change things in ROI when I live in Northern Ireland?

RobMc59

citytillidie wrote: »

downcow wrote: »

Who is telling you this stuff. I’m watching 10 o’clock news and I am sure I can see the flag flying loud and proud , unless this is one of the days they are allowed to fly it in England.

How about you proposing designated days for flying flags in roi.

I could not care less about a state flag flying were it is supposed to be flying is city hall and such.

Just find it funny when it was put forward that the flag only fly on the designated days Belfast was shut down over it as some people got upset over a bit of material that they may not have notice 99% of the time.

Why would I go about looking to change things in ROI when I live in Northern Ireland?

It's a pity francie doesn't have that attitude instead of constantly telling everyone how it should be done...

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I never mentioned lies. I said fiction. Do you really believe it’s a factual documentary.
And I said I haven’t watched it but I know a little of the case as I live in the locality.
Nationalists have been hoodwinked hook line and sinker by it.
So back to my question which you ducked as usual with a question to me.

“I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear then put up or shut up??”

Again...what are you saying was fiction?

The film in it's own blurb says it 'explores state collusion' and presents evidence to the viewer.
Which part of the evidence do you reject?

OFF COURSE it is emotional, as one on Kingsmill would be emotional. Multiple people died, multiple families have been on a journey looking for justice.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's a pity francie doesn't have that attitude instead of constantly telling everyone how it should be done...

I'm the one advocating for a 20 year moratorium on flying any flags Rob. Except on state occasions and state buildings.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again...what are you saying was fiction?

The film in it's own blurb says it 'explores state collusion' and presents evidence to the viewer.
Which part of the evidence do you reject?

OFF COURSE it is emotional, as one on Kingsmill would be emotional. Multiple people died, multiple families have been on a journey looking for justice.

I haven’t watched it francie. That’s why I am asking you a simple question. Here it is again.
“I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear then put up or shut up??”

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I haven’t watched it francie. That’s why I am asking you a simple question. Here it is again.
“I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear then put up or shut up??”

The film 'examines' what evidence there is.

There is no onus on the film to convict or even to present 'evidence that would convict'. It presents what evidence there is and the litany of examples of inaction by the police as well as leaked documents.
You have just thrown up a convenient smokescreen and a 10 year old child would see through it.

A film about the massacre of innocent people is 'emotionally charged' says poster playing the victim for pages!!

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm the one advocating for a 20 year moratorium on flying any flags Rob. Except on state occasions and state buildings.

Not workable Frankie and like the rest of your plans you have not thought it out. What you are saying in other words to get a permanent ban on union Jack's or Northern flags, you would only allow the Irish flag or tricolour on " state occasions and state buildings". Not workable, because everytime there is an international football match or some such occassion it would be used as an excuse to fly the tricolour and leave them flying.
Why cannot you just be honest and say what you really want is the non-Republicans out? You wanting to ban all 12th July festivals, rename places in Irish , rename places after sectarian paramilitary killers etc is all part of your plan.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Not workable Frankie and like the rest of your plans you have not thought it out. What you are saying in other words to get a permanent ban on union Jack's or Northern flags, you would only allow the Irish flag or tricolour on " state occasions and state buildings". Not workable, because everytime there is an international football match or some such occassion it would be used as an excuse to fly the tricolour and leave them flying.
Why cannot you just be honest and say what you really want is the non-Republicans out? You wanting to ban all 12th July festivals, rename places in Irish , rename places after sectarian paramilitary killers etc is all part of your plan.

As usual you are not listening. Bans on certain flags at sporting events are upheld all the time.

I do not advocate the banning of 12th parades (knock yourself out at that) but the disbanding of the OO (which is archaic and bigoted as the KKK in it's beliefs and resolutions) and their involvement with these parades.

I have never advocated for any place being named after a 'paramilitary'. I have though advocated that ALL sides must be allowed to remember their dead respectfully. Perhaps something similar to a Parades Commission could adjudicate on that.

What is your plan for an inclusive society that recognizes what happened here?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The film 'examines' what evidence there is.

There is no onus on the film to convict or even to present 'evidence that would convict'. It presents what evidence there is and the litany of examples of inaction by the police as well as leaked documents.
You have just thrown up a convenient smokescreen and a 10 year old child would see through it.

A film about the massacre of innocent people is 'emotionally charged' says poster playing the victim for pages!!

That’s just another way of saying I can’t give you one single example of evidence to convict or of police blocking the investigation.
Just as I thought and I haven’t watched it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

That’s just another way of saying I can’t give you one single example of evidence to convict or of police blocking the investigation.
Just as I thought and I haven’t watched it.

You have set this test yourself (evidence to convict) as a smokescreen downcow.

The programme doesn't set out to convict anyone, it asks questions of the investigation and presents the evidence that exists.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have set this test yourself (evidence to convict) as a smokescreen downcow.

The programme doesn't set out to convict anyone, it asks questions of the investigation and presents the evidence that exists.

So provide some of the evidence now in the cold light of day outside of the fictional emotional film.
....or maybe there was none. Sounds like no stone unturned has been busted