The glorious 12th

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So basically it's, 'No Surrender' for you, Downcow?

It seems that unless you get to keep 100% of the cake, then the Parades Commission is corrupt. No matter what way you look at it, the vast, vast majority of Orange parades are allowed to proceed without any obstruction whatsoever.

All I ask is clarity, transparency, integrity, equality.
But you may struggle to understand that concept

If you'd bothered to read, when you last posted requesting suggestions for how people would suggest dealing with it, I wrote an extensive answer. I see you didn't bother to reply to it, and instead went on with your poor me victim spiel.

You may only ask for clarity, transparency, integrity and equality, but the problem is that what you perceive as inequality is anything less than getting your way 100% of the time.

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

Such a level of bureaucratic pain isn't necessary outside of NI. Across the British and Irish Isles, only Northern Ireland has such sectarian/cultural division in modern times. Protests and parades in Ireland are all welcome with advance warning (at least legally, there's never a guarantee they'll be well accepted by the population) and no intent to stir up trouble. No other country on the isles needs an independent public body to act as mediator between two communities so opposed to one another.

Even the most historically and provably peaceful unionist/nationalist parade/protest/event can incite violence if it happens in the wrong place, or is seen by the wrong people.

I can't disagree with any of that

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I can't disagree with any of that

Seems to me that if you know what you are doing is causing offence/upset/fear etc that it is up to you to take steps to see that doesn't happen. As well as questioning the whole point of it. Is it a healthy way to be living or a thing normal parents would teach their children to do in a modern progressive normal society?

And 'themuns do it too' is not an adequate retort here. It is wrong for anybody to do it.

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

Define "bullies", and how it is "your" town?

No problem Lochlach

'my town' you really are reading too much into this. Do you never refer to where you live as 'my town' eg 'there were sheep running through my town last night'. So i simply mean the town that i live in.

'Bullies' - in the context of my post and 'my town' I mean the people who have driven almost every Unionist out through sectarian attack and intimidation. The people who have burnt our wee primary school several times and burnt our church down, who have pushed faeces and urine through protestant letter boxes as a weekend occurrence, who hold events in the local GAA club which result in increased late-night attacks on protestant homes, who have shot some of our community dead and left others with life changing injuries, who met me comining of my school bus daily to spit on me and push me around because of my religion, who paint sectarian threats on gable walls in irish, who regularly attack the orange hall and damage cars parked outside it.
Then when they had to stop shooting because of peace agreement they decided to block the road as my local accordion band (a band with age range 7 to 80 and 50% female, which participates at many events in the Catholic cumminity and has been world champions - just before you misrepresent them) led the local OO lodge to their annual sunday service.
They are the 'bullies' that the parades commission got on side with and issued a ban of the sunday service parade

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seems to me that if you know what you are doing is causing offence/upset/fear etc that it is up to you to take steps to see that doesn't happen. As well as questioning the whole point of it. Is it a healthy way to be living or a thing normal parents would teach their children to do in a modern progressive normal society?

And 'themuns do it too' is not an adequate retort here. It is wrong for anybody to do it.

Do you not get it that we all see things from different places.
You are correct when you say that if you know what you are doing is causing offence/upset/fear etc that it is up to you to take steps to see that doesn't happen. The problem is their is a cultural war going on and it is very difficult to know what is causing offence/upset/fear and what is just simple 'we don't want a prod about the place' - and same the other way round.
Leading republicans have said so much about escalating anti parade stuff as a new form of warfare, breaking the bastards, using equality as a trojan horse etc etc etc.
You really need to accept that many nationalist stuff is seen by unionists in the same light as you see/misunderstand/exaggerate parades

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No problem Lochlach

'my town' you really are reading too much into this. Do you never refer to where you live as 'my town' eg 'there were sheep running through my town last night'. So i simply mean the town that i live in.

'Bullies' - in the context of my post and 'my town' I mean the people who have driven almost every Unionist out through sectarian attack and intimidation. The people who have burnt our wee primary school several times and burnt our church down, who have pushed faeces and urine through protestant letter boxes as a weekend occurrence, who hold events in the local GAA club which result in increased late-night attacks on protestant homes, who have shot some of our community dead and left others with life changing injuries, who met me comining of my school bus daily to spit on me and push me around because of my religion, who paint sectarian threats on gable walls in irish, who regularly attack the orange hall and damage cars parked outside it.
Then when they had to stop shooting because of peace agreement they decided to block the road as my local accordion band (a band with age range 7 to 80 and 50% female, which participates at many events in the Catholic cumminity and has been world champions - just before you misrepresent them) led the local OO lodge to their annual sunday service.
They are the 'bullies' that the parades commission got on side with and issued a ban of the sunday service parade

Can you post up the name of this town and the determination of the Parades Commission on it's parade?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Do you not get it that we all see things from different places.
You are correct when you say that if you know what you are doing is causing offence/upset/fear etc that it is up to you to take steps to see that doesn't happen. The problem is their is a cultural war going on and it is very difficult to know what is causing offence/upset/fear and what is just simple 'we don't want a prod about the place' - and same the other way round.
Leading republicans have said so much about escalating anti parade stuff as a new form of warfare, breaking the bastards, using equality as a trojan horse etc etc etc.
You really need to accept that many nationalist stuff is seen by unionists in the same light as you see/misunderstand/exaggerate parades

You have been told many times what is causing offence. But you and the OO don't want to see it.
Never mind what the other side is doing, You know you are causing offence/fear/conflict...YOU do the right thing.


OO parades are wrong - because they are wrong in essence, in a modern pluralist society. They are more wrong when they are where they are not wanted. As a triumphalist republican one would be too.

We see Unionist Mayors posing with Irish flags burning on bonfires this very year.





The clincher for me is the completely arrogant way that the OO refused to engage with the PC from the get go. They laid down the marker and they are reaping the rewards of that. Same with the DUP, they tried to swing the dead Unionist veto in the executive and are reaping the rewards -legislation will happen without them and things will move on yet again...without them.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

OO parades are wrong - because they are wrong in essence, in a modern pluralist society. They are more wrong when they are where they are not wanted. As a triumphalist republican one would be too.

We see Unionist Mayors posing with Irish flags burning on bonfires this very year.

Plenty of republican marches in my town, I wouldn’t want to assume the organisers reasons and whether they were being intentionally triumphalist. I have no problem with them and they can march till their hearts are content. During the summer their are nationalist festivals, fleadhs etc - again I don’t know their reason but I have no problem with them. The people seem happy and the council clear up the rubbish the next day. No problem. Of course I know lots of people who don’t want them so are you saying they are wrong and should be stopped?

As for mayors watching flags burning, disgusting . I think I already posted the pic of a sf mayor of Dublin actually burning a flag himself, doubly disgusting

gwalk

i see that empty vessel Jamie Bryson is offended and outraged that translink have a banner on their property advertising a translink sponsored event.

hes such a prescious little snowflake

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Plenty of republican marches in my town, I wouldn’t want to assume the organisers reasons and whether they were being intentionally triumphalist. I have no problem with them and they can march till their hearts are content. During the summer their are nationalist festivals, fleadhs etc - again I don’t know their reason but I have no problem with them. The people seem happy and the council clear up the rubbish the next day. No problem. Of course I know lots of people who don’t want them so are you saying they are wrong and should be stopped?

If they are causing offence/fear/conflict then YES, they should not be allowed to parade in those places.
And unionists have the same rights in that regard.

As for mayors watching flags burning, disgusting . I think I already posted the pic of a sf mayor of Dublin actually burning a flag himself, doubly disgusting

The Dublin incident happened before the GFA was signed.

This year the DUP defended their 2 elected members, one of them the mayor.

You came on here to try to understand and continuously point at themums to defend your position and unacceptable behaviour. If it is wrong for one, it is wrong for all.
Which is totally disingenuous and typically hypocritical of you.

janfebmar

downcow wrote: »

No problem Lochlach

'my town' you really are reading too much into this. Do you never refer to where you live as 'my town' eg 'there were sheep running through my town last night'. So i simply mean the town that i live in.

'Bullies' - in the context of my post and 'my town' I mean the people who have driven almost every Unionist out through sectarian attack and intimidation. The people who have burnt our wee primary school several times and burnt our church down, who have pushed faeces and urine through protestant letter boxes as a weekend occurrence, who hold events in the local GAA club which result in increased late-night attacks on protestant homes, who have shot some of our community dead and left others with life changing injuries, who met me comining of my school bus daily to spit on me and push me around because of my religion, who paint sectarian threats on gable walls in irish, who regularly attack the orange hall and damage cars parked outside it.
Then when they had to stop shooting because of peace agreement they decided to block the road as my local accordion band (a band with age range 7 to 80 and 50% female, which participates at many events in the Catholic cumminity and has been world champions - just before you misrepresent them) led the local OO lodge to their annual sunday service.
They are the 'bullies' that the parades commission got on side with and issued a ban of the sunday service parade

Good, thoughtful post. I think some of the people who are critical of OO parades ( most of which pass off peacefully in areas which want them) fail to see the other side of the story.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they are causing offence/fear/conflict then YES, they should..

One Charles J Haughey once burned a union flag in Dublin, so that was wrong too. Yet he later became Taoiseach.

downcow

gwalk wrote: »

i see that empty vessel Jamie Bryson is offended and outraged that translink have a banner on their property advertising a translink sponsored event.

hes such a prescious little snowflake

tell me more. havent seen that. Although it is the inevitable outcome of this attempt to remove everything that offends that francie is proposing

gwalk

downcow wrote: »

tell me more. havent seen that. Although it is the inevitable outcome of this attempt to remove everything that offends that francie is proposing

google it, on his little victim twitter page he runs

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they are causing offence/fear/conflict then YES, they should not be allowed to parade in those places.
And unionists have the same rights in that regard.


.

...and i am telling you lots of people are offended by these fleadhs so are you saying they should be stopped - Thats a sad position

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

One Charles J Haughey once burned a union flag in Dublin, so that was wrong too. Yet he later became Taoiseach.

Yes, we know you think the correct response is for the other side to be equally wrong and provocative...as long as it is the Unionist side responding. If it is the response of republicans...apparently that is a bad thing.

You are typically unable to see why problems arise. Like in the case of the Mayo librarian who came from the same University that Haughey was burning the flag in response to, 70 years ago!! when Trinity hung the UJ out of many windows on VE day and also burned the tricolour.

Trinity, spelled out who it had allegiance to and indulged it's love of the Union Jack by flying it above the Irish flag on it's flagstaff. Is it any wonder it provoked reaction and it's graduates were treated by suspicion?
Can you imagine if that happened on a public building in NI, even today?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

...and i am telling you lots of people are offended by these fleadhs so are you saying they should be stopped - Thats a sad position

If there is behaviour at a fleadh that is causing offence YOU have a right to object. Every much a right as somebody who is offended by OO parading.

downcow

gwalk wrote: »

google it, on his little victim twitter page he runs

can't find it - but thats fine if you don't want to share it

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If there is behaviour at a fleadh that is causing offence YOU have a right to object. Every much a right as somebody who is offended by OO parading.

Shock News - Francie moves the goal posts.

I am telling you that the event causes offence to many people, so I am asking you does that mean it should be banned as you proposed for anything that offends???

gwalk

downcow wrote: »

can't find it - but thats fine if you don't want to share it

I highly doubt you can't find it, but thats fine if you don't want to actually go look for it yourself

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Shock News - Francie moves the goal posts.

I am telling you that the event causes offence to many people, so I am asking you does that mean it should be banned as you proposed for anything that offends???

Why does a 'fleadh' offend you?

Your 'offence' has to be credible. 'Just because it's dem Irish ones' is not a justifiable reason downcow.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why does a 'fleadh' offend you?

Your 'offence' has to be credible. 'Just because it's dem Irish ones' is not a justifiable reason downcow.

I said it didn't annoy me but I know that it offends many people. Given my post earlier, many people are offended because they have been on the recieving end of endless sectarianism by nationalists and then these same nationalists take over the town centre, put up flags, bunting, etc, receive funding from the council, etc, etc. While at the same time the unionist community are not allowed to express their identity.
But thats all irrelevant. We now need some criteria from you as to how you would decide if the offence is credible.

And is you offence at OO parades not simply 'Just because it's dem Orange ones'?

downcow

gwalk wrote: »

I highly doubt you can't find it, but thats fine if you don't want to actually go look for it yourself

Trust me i looked. But i see you are in fairly antagonistic form this afternoon so I'll leave you alone lol

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Trinity, spelled out who it had allegiance to and indulged it's love of the Union Jack by flying it above the Irish flag on it's flagstaff. Is it any wonder it provoked reaction and..

Trinity did not spell out who it had allegiance to. A few students there did, and that is a huge difference. So what if a few students flew a few Union Jack's out of windows on VE day, the day the rest of the world was celebrating the end of the war in Europe? You just put legs on to the story, as expected. There were American flags flown here everywhere when JFK visited, I have no problem with that.

More than a few graduates of Trinity and every other university in Ireland gave their lives defeating Nazism and liberating Europe. You forget that.

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

...and i am telling you lots of people are offended by these fleadhs so are you saying they should be stopped - Thats a sad position

....fairly sure they don't launch fleadhs down sandy row, tigers bay or the shankhill.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I said it didn't annoy me but I know that it offends many people. Given my post earlier, many people are offended because they have been on the recieving end of endless sectarianism by nationalists and then these same nationalists take over the town centre, put up flags, bunting, etc, receive funding from the council, etc, etc. While at the same time the unionist community are not allowed to express their identity.
But thats all irrelevant. We now need some criteria from you as to how you would decide if the offence is credible.

And is you offence at OO parades not simply 'Just because it's dem Orange ones'?

You need to tell us why people are offended by a 'fleadh'?

A fleadh is not offensive in essence, while there may be offensive behaviour at it. There can be offensive behaviour anywhere, in a shopping centre, on the side of the road etc.

The OO and the 12th are offensive in essence, because of what they and it, is about. 'Triumphalism'. It celebrates the defeat of the community you wish to pass through. You cannot sugar coat that with the words 'culture' or 'tradition'.

gwalk

downcow wrote: »

Trust me i looked. But i see you are in fairly antagonistic form this afternoon so I'll leave you alone lol

I wouldnt trust you as far as i could throw you.

a quick example, i just googled Jamie Bryson Translink and it was the second result down, so you obviously didn't look.

lol must stand for... Loyalist Orange Liars..

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Trinity did not spell out who it had allegiance to. A few students there did, and that is a huge difference. So what if a few students flew a few Union Jack's out of windows on VE day, the day the rest of the world was celebrating the end of the war in Europe? You just put legs on to the story, as expected. There were American flags flown here everywhere when JFK visited, I have no problem with that.

More than a few graduates of Trinity and every other university in Ireland gave their lives defeating Nazism and liberating Europe. You forget that.

When you fly the flag of a foreign country officially from your building you are spelling out something to my mind. It is to say the very least, provocative, especially in a newly formed state. Trinity flew the Union Jack until 1939 on it's flagstaff and when it flew the Tricolour it was always below.
Their students did this again on VE day and also burned the tricolour and riots ensued.

But in saying all that, it was 70 years ago and a lot of water has passed under that bridge.

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

I said it didn't annoy me but I know that it offends many people. Given my post earlier, many people are offended because they have been on the recieving end of endless sectarianism by nationalists and then these same nationalists take over the town centre, put up flags, bunting, etc, receive funding from the council, etc, etc. While at the same time the unionist community are not allowed to express their identity.
But thats all irrelevant. We now need some criteria from you as to how you would decide if the offence is credible.

And is you offence at OO parades not simply 'Just because it's dem Orange ones'?

The problem is OO parades wanting to go through nationalist areas. The croppies aren't lying down anymore, so it's just not on.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Trust me i looked. But i see you are in fairly antagonistic form this afternoon so I'll leave you alone lol

I found it within seconds. Stop bluffing.

I'd post it, but I wouldn't introduce that guy to anyone to be honest.