The glorious 12th

maccored

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct. I had reason to spend a lot of time in N. Ireland during the 80's and 90's, and I always found the security forces polite and respectful, even though I am a southerner. How they put up with the stress of knowing a significant % of Republicans wanted to kill them or set them up to be killed, I do not know.

I spend a lot of time in the north in the 70s, 80s (all of those decades) and most of the 90s and I dont know what security forces you met with, but they werent the ones patrolling the town I lived in obviously

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was a conflict/war downcow. The members of your army can return to civilian life free of any responsibility for what they did. And nobody wants (to and will actively support moves not) to hold them to account if they did wrong. There are many many instances were former BA soldiers go to the top of the tree in your state.

You are going nowhere with that further plea of victim hood.

Consistency and equality is my plea. What is right for Gerry and Martin is right for soldier if. It’s really that simple.
Or maybe you would want double standards ?

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Consistency and equality is my plea. What is right for Gerry and Martin is right for soldier if. It’s really that simple.
Or maybe you would want double standards ?

Has anyone said otherwise?

downcow

maccored wrote: »

I spend a lot of time in the north in the 70s, 80s (all of those decades) and most of the 90s and I dont know what security forces you met with, but they werent the ones patrolling the town I lived in obviously

It’s a two way thing. I have discussed this at length with nationalist friends. They drove up to the check point and admit the were unfriendly and uncooperative. My community drove up to the checkpoint, were friendly, often offered the guys a sweet, chatted about life and thanked them for what they were doing.

No of course there was history that made each behave the way they did but it is chicken and egg as someone else said.

So I agree with jan. every soldier I met was friendly and polite. But I understand that’s not your experience.

Fionn1952

maccored wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct. I had reason to spend a lot of time in N. Ireland during the 80's and 90's, and I always found the security forces polite and respectful, even though I am a southerner. How they put up with the stress of knowing a significant % of Republicans wanted to kill them or set them up to be killed, I do not know.

I spend a lot of time in the north in the 70s, 80s (all of those decades) and most of the 90s and I dont know what security forces you met with, but they werent the ones patrolling the town I lived in obviously

I think he's been working off Fr Dougal's diagram

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

Has anyone said otherwise?

Well if you are correct then let’s all agree. Either leave soldier f alone or remove the letters of comfort and royal pardons from republicans. Either stop the enquiries or have enquiries into all eg my interest would be one into the collusion between Marty the fisherman and the e3a unit of the ruc

So are we agreeing?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Consistency and equality is my plea. What is right for Gerry and Martin is right for soldier if. It’s really that simple.
Or maybe you would want double standards ?

If there was evidence against Gerry and Martin they were brought in and questioned about it.

Same with Soldier F.

No difference in treatment that i can see, except it has taken more than 40 years for the British government to admit there was a case to answer.

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Well if you are correct then let’s all agree. Either leave soldier f alone or remove the letters of comfort and royal pardons from republicans. Either stop the enquiries or have enquiries into all eg my interest would be one into the collusion between Marty the fisherman and the e3a unit of the ruc

So are we agreeing?

Hold.the enquiries all yous want....suspect your view of security forces will be severely coulered....why not enquire into the way ruc officers set up another for assination in cushendall


Be exactly up.the usual.tactic of brits to remove letters of comfort etc,they cant be trusted to keep their word anyway....remove em if yous want.....so long as soldier f dies in jail.as he should for committing multiple murders (pity rest of those who have bloody fingers from.bloody sunday dont aswell imo)

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If there was evidence against Gerry and Martin they were brought in and questioned about it.

Same with Soldier F.

No difference in treatment that i can see, except it has taken more than 40 years for the British government to admit there was a case to answer.

Fair enough. We now just need the ira to catch up I think they still believe their war was just and have yet to apologise for the soldiers they killed.
Though they always were slow learners

FrancieBrady

_blaaz wrote: »

Hold.the enquiries all yous want....suspect your view of security forces will be severely coulered....why not enquire into the way ruc officers set up another for assination in cushendall


Be exactly up.the usual.tactic of brits to remove letters of comfort etc,they cant be trusted to keep their word anyway....remove em if yous want.....so long as soldier f dies in jail.as he should for committing multiple murders (pity rest of those who have bloody fingers from.bloody sunday dont aswell imo)

Not forgetting that the entire British state apparatus closed around Soldier F and the rest of them, to protect, whitewash and cover up what happened.

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

Hold.the enquiries all yous want....suspect your view of security forces will be severely coulered....why not enquire into the way ruc officers set up another for assination in cushendall


Be exactly up.the usual.tactic of brits to remove letters of comfort etc,they cant be trusted to keep their word anyway....remove em if yous want.....so long as soldier f dies in jail.as he should for committing multiple murders (pity rest of those who have bloody fingers from.bloody sunday dont aswell imo)

There is not a chance of soldier f going to jail.
So I assume you think ira killers should die in jail.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Fair enough. We now just need the ira to catch up I think they still believe their war was just and have yet to apologise for the soldiers they killed.
Though they always were slow learners

Do we hear the sound of goalposts being shifted I wonder?

How about returning to the topic.

Are you now willing to stop supporting those who wish to march where they are not wanted and an organisation that wants to bolster the British identity by denying others their identity - the OO?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not forgetting that the entire British state apparatus closed around Soldier F and the rest of them, to protect, whitewash and cover up what happened.

Sounds a bit like the ira top brass surrounding their rapists and child molesters so as they could evade justice

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

There is not a chance of soldier f going to jail.
So I assume you think ira killers should die in jail.

Hes going down...hes been implicated by a fellow soldier with solid evidence....what im hearing anyway



Nah mate.....just anyone convicted of killing before 1974 who isnt covered by the gfa amnesty

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do we hear the sound of goalposts being shifted I wonder?

How about returning to the topic.

Are you now willing to stop supporting those who wish to march where they are not wanted and an organisation that wants to bolster the British identity by denying others their identity - the OO?

You still haven’t told me in plain English how you define ‘not wanted’

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Sounds a bit like the ira top brass surrounding their rapists and child molesters so as they could evade justice

What about
What about
What about.....do you people have anything good to offer the world

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

What about
What about
What about.....do you people have anything good to offer the world

You need to realise that there was very bad things done on all sides and to just go after one side will inevitably draw attention to your own sides wrong doings

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You still haven’t told me in plain English how you define ‘not wanted’

If somebody objects via the Parades Commission and they uphold the objection after applying their criteria.

I.E. The only way it can work.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You need to realise that there was very bad things done on all sides and to just go after one side will inevitably draw attention to your own sides wrong doings

It is estimated that republicans and loyalists have spent 100,000 years in jail between them.

Members of the British Army (excluding the disgraced locally recruited UDR)have spent less than 10 years in jail.

You wish to bull**** some more about imbalance?

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I have always been very open that there were terrible things done on both sides, more often than not fuelled by sectarianism. The problem is the is a concerted campaign by republicans to rewrite history and paint the peacekeepers as the rogues.

You are asking me to watch a film which is a dangerous mix of fact and fiction with no clarity where the fact begins and ends. It also spins innocent facts into conspiracy theories. I genuinely don’t have the inclination. If it was a factual documentary designed to educate I would certainly watch it.
I know a victims nephew very well and I know a accused gunman very well, so another reason I would certainly watch it.

If you can give me a couple of examples from it of how police have blocked the investigation then you may encourage me to watch it.

Having known the case locally I understand that there have been no prosecutions because there is no evidence to put to the pps. As is the case in endless murders on both sides in the troubles

You refuse to watch it, yet you somehow know it's a "dangerous mix of fact and fiction"?

How does that work?

downcow

downcow wrote: »

This is the problem. Some people want to put the Unionist culture under a microscope, looking for all the flaws. Some do it to intentionally deflect away from the disgusting sectarian nature of the ira and their supporters. Others sadly believe the unionists were the problem and the nationalist a pretty clean
Quoting ‘no stone unturned’ was a classic. Same mentality. Pick one atrocity against nationalists and create a mist of fact and fiction and stir it all together to create a new narrative that ruc hampered all investigations into attacks on nationalists.
I did ask for some simple evidence from the film I haven’t watched that demonstrates either evidence that would convict or evidence of ruc hampering case. Silence follows because they want you to watch an emotionally charged spin which will convince you without clear facts. If the facts are so clear the put up or shut up

Well, that's quite an imagination you have there.

I have supported respectful Orange marches.

I asked you for an opinion on a documentary. I didn't ask you to decide on the guilt or innocence of the alleged perpetrators.

I asked you how you thought the victims families felt, given the fact that a BRITISH enquiry found there was collusion, and you performed the usual contortions - anything to avoid saying that there WAS collusion- in some instances.

If you cannot bring yourself to even try and empathise with victims families, just because they're Catholic/Nationalist- then your posts in this forum are proven to be nothing more than one-sided, sectarian viewpoints. No more, no less.

janfebmar

downcow wrote: »

Well if you are correct then let’s all agree. Either leave soldier f alone or remove the letters of comfort and royal pardons from republicans. Either stop the enquiries or have enquiries into all eg my interest would be one into the collusion between Marty the fisherman and the e3a unit of the ruc

So are we agreeing?

Sounds fair enough. Stop the enquiries or have enquiries in to all. If 200 get secret letters of comfort, all should get them.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Sounds fair enough. Stop the enquiries or have enquiries in to all. If 200 get secret letters of comfort, all should get them.

Shouldn't your anger with 'letters of comfort' and the lack of enquiries into killings not be directed at the British, on a British forum?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

During the troubles small number of [Catholics] murdered members of my community,

a larger number [of Catholics] physically attacked us and our premises and homes,

a much larger and very significant number [of Catholics] remained quiet and give tacit support to the more militant ones.

Even today a very large majority of [Catholics] elect some of the people who they know done the sectarian attacks to public office.

Catholics you say? Was it their Catholicism that motivated them to attack 'your community'?

janfebmar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Catholics you say?

I think you have altered Downcows post, Junkyard Tom.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Shouldn't your anger with 'letters of comfort' and the lack of enquiries into killings not be directed at the British, on a British forum?

Who said I had "anger" with letters of comfort or lack of enquiries in to killings? It's not the British governments fault so few people were caught for certain killings. For example, between '71 and '89 in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone there were 204 murders, about 178 of them committed by Republicans, and only 14 people convicted.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Who said I had "anger" with letters of comfort or lack of enquiries in to killings? It's not the British governments fault so few people were caught for certain killings. For example, between '72 and '89 in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone there were 204 murders, about 278 of them committed by Republicans, and only 14 people convicted.

Republicans and Loyalists have served 100,000 years between them in prison.
The members of the BA (minus the locally recruited UDR, a disgraceful story onto themselves) have served less than 10 for many many killings.

Is there a glaring discrepancy in the administration an upstanding democrat like yourself be addressing there do you think?

janfebmar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Was it their Catholicism that motivated them to attack 'your community'?

It was more the sectarianism of them, not their Catholicism. There are plenty of very devout Catholics in the world who do or did not murder anyone.

Reputable Rog

[quote="janfebmar;110866766"between '72 and '89 in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone there were 204 murders, about 278 of them committed by Republicans, and only 14 people convicted.[/quote]

Very interesting stat.

Junkyard Tom

janfebmar wrote: »

I think you have altered Downcows post, Junkyard Tom.