The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think you’ll find that is a minimum requirement while in NI you want it as a maximum requirement. Subtle but important difference

That is the list your executive democratically voted to follow. But yet the 'great democrats' were having none of it. And you disingenuously say this nonsense:

I don’t know a single unionist who would not be happy with a completely open transparent method of determine how cultural displays take place and of all communities being treated completely equally with the same criteria.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You must have data to back your claim 'that the vast majority of the sectarian intimidation was directed at protestants.' Can you link to it?

Some may be of the opinion that looking at how 90% of the murders in Fermanagh were committed by Republicans for example, and looking at how protestant businesses were targeted for bombing by the pira during the troubles, not to mention other intimidation resulting in the border being rolled back 30 miles or whatever in places, gives a good indication. Downcow said " Yes there were certainly Catholics intimidated but there is no question that the vast majority of the sectarian intimidation was directed at protestants.". Not surprising you ignored the first part of his statement Francie. At the very least I would say its probably correct that in his locality and in his experience the vast majority of the sectarian intimidation was directed at protestants.

Del.Monte

Had lunch on the Ormeau Road here on the 10th July - very convivial surroundings - bring on the border poll. Will there be a box to tick for 26 county voters who wish to rejoin the UK?

Fionn1952

janfebmar wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You must have data to back your claim 'that the vast majority of the sectarian intimidation was directed at protestants.' Can you link to it?

Some may be of the opinion that looking at how 90% of the murders in Fermanagh were committed by Republicans for example, and looking at how protestant businesses were targeted for bombing by the pira during the troubles, not to mention other intimidation resulting in the border being rolled back 30 miles or whatever in places, gives a good indication.

Facts, figures and sources please, rather than your permanent victim complex please, Jan.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Some may be of the opinion that looking at how 90% of the murders in Fermanagh were committed by Republicans for example, and looking at how protestant businesses were targeted for bombing by the pira during the troubles, not to mention other intimidation resulting in the border being rolled back 30 miles or whatever in places, gives a good indication.

Protestant population of Fermanagh

1891 = 43.5%

1991 = 43.3%

_blaaz

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Protestant population of Fermanagh

1891 = 43.5%

1991 = 43.3%

That seems fairly conclusive tbh

FrancieBrady

_blaaz wrote: »

That seems fairly conclusive tbh

There is no denying that the community took a massive hit, but the suggestion it was to displace a population is a bit fanciful looking at those figures from Wesley Johnstone.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Protestant population of Fermanagh

1891 = 43.5%

1991 = 43.3%

And in 2014 it was 38%.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Facts, figures and.

Here is one fact. Between 1971 and 1989 there were 203 murders in the Fermanagh and south Tyrone area alone, of which about 178 were carried out by republican paramilitaries. Only 14 convictions followed. So an awful lot of people were not prosecuted.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Protestant population of Fermanagh

1891 = 43.5%

1991 = 43.3%

Well, if you want to look at Protestant population changes 1861 - 1991, here are some stats from the same source:

COUNTY 1861 1991 Change

Dublin 27.2% 3.2% Down 82%
Monaghan 26.6% 8.6% Down 68%
Donegal 24.9% 9.5% Down 62%
Cork 8.2% 2.6% Down 68%
Kilkenny 5.1% 2.5% Down 51%
Kerry 3.3% 1.4% Down 58%
Mayo 3.2% 1.0% Down 69%

You can draw your own conclusions.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Here is one fact. Between 1971 and 1989 there were 203 murders in the Fermanagh and south Tyrone area alone, of which about 178 were carried out by republican paramilitaries. Only 14 convictions followed. So an awful lot of people were not prosecuted.

You do know there was a bitter conflict/war going on?

downcow

janfebmar wrote: »

Well, if you want to look at Protestant population changes 1861 - 1991, here are some stats from the same source:

COUNTY 1861 1991 Change

Dublin 27.2% 3.2% Down 82%
Monaghan 26.6% 8.6% Down 68%
Donegal 24.9% 9.5% Down 62%
Cork 8.2% 2.6% Down 68%
Kilkenny 5.1% 2.5% Down 51%
Kerry 3.3% 1.4% Down 58%
Mayo 3.2% 1.0% Down 69%

You can draw your own conclusions.

Francie willl have a reason other than sectarianism. Maybe it was the weather in the south.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

And in 2014 it was 38%.

Missed this bit....so your theory is that this 'forced displacement took place in the 6 years up to the GFA and in the 6 years after?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie willl have a reason other than sectarianism. Maybe it was the weather in the south.

There was sectarianism but not on the scale jamfebmar plaintively and desperately wants you to believe. We have had this debate before and janfebmar disappeared from it when it was shown the data didn't back her 'sectarian intimdation/ethnic cleansing' point up.
There were many and varied reasons for the fall, not least the massive exodus of British troops and civil servants and their families.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You do know there was a bitter conflict/war going on?

Whatever you want to call it, it was certainly bitter when 178 out of the 203 murders were carried out by Republicans. Republican murders include the Enniskillen bombing, where as murders from the other side include someone who was ambushed by an ira gang but who shot back in self defence.

There were and are good and bad people on both sides.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Whatever you want to call it, it was certainly bitter when 178 out of the 203 murders were carried out by Republicans. Republican murders include the Enniskillen bombing, where as murders from the other side include someone who was ambushed by an ira gang but who shot back in self defence.

There were and are good and bad people on both sides.

Sorry, not interested in your 'competition politics' jan...it's nauseating.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Now why would I listen to that propaganda.
Much of it is nonsense.
Sadly it does remind us that the security forces were swamped by daily murderous attacks and investigations were not perfect.

There is no evidence to convict the loughinisland massacre. That’s just the story of the north eg 95% of republican killings in Fermanagh unsolved.

No stone unturned is a fantasy film

Its fantasy? Despite evidence from actual security forces in the North?

See, this is where N. Ireland problems continue to fester.

There's an almost automatic dismissal of genuine grievances if those grievances are from " the other side".

If you were willing to actually listen to that documentary, you would have to acknowledge that the security forces were not "swamped" with daily murderous attacks, and that investigations were, not just imperfect - but deliberately blocked and impeded at every stage, through those same security forces combination of collusion, and desire to protect "double agents".

If you stop to consider that those same "double agents" perforce had victims in both the Nationalist AND Unionist communities - then you should surely empathise with, and understand the Nationalist grievance against those responsible.

Instead, you dismiss cold, hard facts as propaganda, and promptly give a "Look over there!" response!

Until such time as Nationalist and Unionist alike can condemn the slaughter of innocents ON BOTH SIDES, and condemn wrongdoing by those who were meant to keep the peace, then there will be no mutual respect in the North, just more of the same "Them'uns caused it all" when its blatantly obvious to anyone with a halfway impartial eye that SOME of those who were meant to keep the peace left countless victims in their wake - in both Communities, sadly.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was sectarianism

Well, you are finally admitting it now.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

but not on the scale jamfebmar plaintively and desperately wants you to believe.

You are twisting things I said.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have had this debate before and janfebmar disappeared from it

No I did not.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

when it was shown the data didn't back her 'sectarian intimdation/ethnic cleansing' point up.

You are confusing the pira campaign in certain areas during the northern troubles, although of course innocent protestants were murdered in the troubles here by Republicans too, but that was a century ago.


There were many and varied reasons for the fall.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, not interested in your 'competition politics' jan...it's nauseating.

It must be uncomfortable for you to look at the statistics, sounds to me like you have something on your conscience.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

It must be uncomfortable for you to look at the statistics, sounds to me like you have something on your conscience.

As with all conflicts/wars I look at all the data janfebmar...not the data that backs up my pre-conceived notions about sectarian ethnic cleansing or why a man might be considered 'great'.

And I NEVER use selective victims or treat it as some kind of sick competition.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

my culture

You get kicked out of the Orange Order for marrying a Catholic but not if you torture and murder one.


Shankill Butcher Eddie McIlwaine officiating
at an Orange Order cultural event.

Not all expressions of culture are equally meritorious.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its fantasy? Despite evidence from actual security forces in the North?

See, this is where N. Ireland problems continue to fester.

There's an almost automatic dismissal of genuine grievances if those grievances are from " the other side".

If you were willing to actually listen to that documentary, you would have to acknowledge that the security forces were not "swamped" with daily murderous attacks, and that investigations were, not just imperfect - but deliberately blocked and impeded at every stage, through those same security forces combination of collusion, and desire to protect "double agents".

If you stop to consider that those same "double agents" perforce had victims in both the Nationalist AND Unionist communities - then you should surely empathise with, and understand the Nationalist grievance against those responsible.

Instead, you dismiss cold, hard facts as propaganda, and promptly give a "Look over there!" response!

Until such time as Nationalist and Unionist alike can condemn the slaughter of innocents ON BOTH SIDES, and condemn wrongdoing by those who were meant to keep the peace, then there will be no mutual respect in the North, just more of the same "Them'uns caused it all" when its blatantly obvious to anyone with a halfway impartial eye that SOME of those who were meant to keep the peace left countless victims in their wake - in both Communities, sadly.

I have always been very open that there were terrible things done on both sides, more often than not fuelled by sectarianism. The problem is the is a concerted campaign by republicans to rewrite history and paint the peacekeepers as the rogues.

You are asking me to watch a film which is a dangerous mix of fact and fiction with no clarity where the fact begins and ends. It also spins innocent facts into conspiracy theories. I genuinely don’t have the inclination. If it was a factual documentary designed to educate I would certainly watch it.
I know a victims nephew very well and I know a accused gunman very well, so another reason I would certainly watch it.

If you can give me a couple of examples from it of how police have blocked the investigation then you may encourage me to watch it.

Having known the case locally I understand that there have been no prosecutions because there is no evidence to put to the pps. As is the case in endless murders on both sides in the troubles

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You get kicked out of the Orange Order for marrying a Catholic but not if you torture and murder one.


Shankill Butcher Eddie McIlwaine officiating
at an Orange Order cultural event.

Not all expressions of culture are equally meritorious.

Tom. This is a silly line of argument . Do you want me to start posting up sectarian killers who remained in the gaa?

janfebmar

downcow wrote: »

Tom. This is a silly line of argument . Do you want me to start posting up sectarian killers who remained in the gaa?

And indeed there have been gaa grounds and even a childrens play park named after who many would see as sectarian killers too, or from a paramilitary group which planned and committed countless sectarian killings over decades.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As with all conflicts/wars I look at all the data janfebmar...not the data that backs up my pre-conceived notions about sectarian ethnic cleansing or why a man might be considered 'great'.

And I NEVER use selective victims or treat it as some kind of sick competition.

I was looking at all the murder data from 1971 to 1989 in fermanagh/ South Tyrone there Francie. Why did the pira mainly target Protestant businesses for bombings? Why did they in other parts of NI for example leave their own safe area and drive deep in to a protestant area to explode a bomb, like they did at Le Mons hotel for example? There will not be full peace when you still condone the murder of people because of their religion or because they were public servants of a democratically elected government.

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Tom. This is a silly line of argument . Do you want me to start posting up sectarian killers who remained in the gaa?

I suspect youll run out of pics long before sectarian killers in the orange order.....i taught youd be embarassed to even try play that game

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Tom. This is a silly line of argument . Do you want me to start posting up sectarian killers who remained in the gaa?

Whataboutery aside - isn't it reprehensible that the Orange Order will kick you out for marry a Catholic but not for murdering one?

Is this the culture you want people to respect?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Whataboutery aside - isn't it reprehensible that the Orange Order will kick you out for marry a Catholic but not for murdering one?

Is this the culture you want people to respect?

I know orangemen who married Catholics so I don’t think you are accurate there.

It’s not so long since the gaa would kick you out for joining the army but celebrate you killing soldiers. And as far as I am aware the majority of gaa north of the border voted to keep that position but they were overruled by their less sectarian counterparts in the south

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

I suspect youll run out of pics long before sectarian killers in the orange order.....i taught youd be embarassed to even try play that game

Well I don’t have the energy for the tit for tat but I am sure you would not disagree that a very large number of the sectarian killers of the ira were much loved members of the gaa.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Whataboutery aside - isn't it reprehensible that the Orange Order will kick you out for marry a Catholic but not for murdering one?

Is this the culture you want people to respect?

These analogies are childish and pathetic tbh. Just demonstrates you hatred for the orange culture.
It’s a bit like saying a catholic priest would get thrown out for marrying a man over 18 but not for sexually abusing one under 18. Pathetic stupid nonsense that proves nothing

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

It’s not so long

Whataboutery again. I'm not asking you to respect the GAA and I don't think they're looking to march through towns with known murderers officiating.

There are unionist bands that commemorate unionist murderers like those who massacred the 5 men in the bookies.

So we have the Orange Order with Shankill Butcher members, and goodness knows who else, in its ranks and bands that commemorate mass murderers.

Do you want people to respect that?