The glorious 12th

Fionn1952

Berserker wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

In my lifetime, there hasn't been a year passed without issue.

There has been. Take off your republican blinkers and work your way back through the years. It won't take you very long to find one.

Go for it, name the year, I'll find the incident.

This is nothing to do with Republicanism, this is an, 'actually growing up and living in the North' thing.

I have no problem with Protestants, no problem with Unionists, or Unionist culture (you'll find me arguing for respect towards Ulster Scots culture in another thread), I don't even have a problem with Orangeism (you'll note me holding up a different Orange parade as aspirational earlier in the thread), so take your lazy, cop out excuse making elsewhere and try make your point on merit rather than insults towards me.

steddyeddy

I'm also one that argues that unionists should be allowed to celebrate their culture and they should be encouraged engage with both sides of the community. The Orange Order parades in Donegal are a good example of this. A fairly peaceful parade and a nice day out. They're celebrating their culture by taking pride in who they are.

The problem in some parts of Northern Ireland unionists and loyalists often define themselves as what they're not rather than what they are. It's the reasons people label anyone who disagrees with them as Republican. The fact they're not republican is all they have left.

FrancieBrady

Berserker wrote: »

Oh, I'm well aware of the SF PR machine. But for Republicans and their total lack of respect for Protestant culture there'd be no issues at all.

My wife and children are protestants and what passes for their culture in the north makes them almost physically sick with embarrassment and shame. Most if not all their southern protestant contemporaries would feel the same.

Work out what that means for Orange culture if there ever is a UI yourself.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

This culture?

Junkyard we had this debate and you lost it. I think we all accepted that there were large numbers of IRA killers in the GAA

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you or downcow tell us how you know it was the exact spot even?

It is laughable that those who will call the burning of effigies of recently dead people 'culture' or who can not see that marching into a city in support of a soldier who has confessed to killing is also 'culture require the other side to check through the entire history of the conflict to make sure nobody has died on or near the spot where you decide to have a spontaneous dance.

I am sure somebody must have been drooling when they found that poor child in the archives.

By all means criticise the internment bonfires, they deserve that, in the strongest tones. But this spurious exploitative nonsense will wither on the vine as more, 'look at themuns' excuse making.

Hypocrisy Francie. Can i assure you that Matina Anderson was wearing her IRA T shirt much closer to where the child was killed than the band was to where the BS people were killed

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Hypocrisy Francie. Can i assure you that Matina Anderson was wearing her IRA T shirt much closer to where the child was killed than the band was to where the BS people were killed

It wasn't an IRA shirt even. It said 'An Srath Bán 1981-2019'.

Are you proposing a further ban on Orange Marches that go anywhere near where a Catholic/Nationalist was tragically killed...have you thought this through?

Taking offence were none was intended is not the fault of organisers downcow, that really is your problem to sort out.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Junkyard we had this debate and you lost it. I think we all accepted that there were large numbers of IRA killers in the GAA

Well I take it you have a problem with a murderer in the Orange Order the same way you would with the GAA?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Go for it, name the year, I'll find the incident.

This is nothing to do with Republicanism, this is an, 'actually growing up and living in the North' thing.

I have no problem with Protestants, no problem with Unionists, or Unionist culture (you'll find me arguing for respect towards Ulster Scots culture in another thread), I don't even have a problem with Orangeism (you'll note me holding up a different Orange parade as aspirational earlier in the thread), so take your lazy, cop out excuse making elsewhere and try make your point on merit rather than insults towards me.

This is ridiculous. Do you know any event involving 100,000s that there is not minor issues at the perifery. GAA matches, St Patricks day, whatever. It seems you requirement for behaviour by 100,000s at 12th is no one gets drunk, no litter is dropped, no one urinates where they should't - show me any large nationalist event and i will show you law braeking. This is clear sectarian begotry

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is ridiculous. Do you know any event involving 100,000s that there is not minor issues at the perifery. GAA matches, St Patricks day, whatever. It seems you requirement for behaviour by 100,000s at 12th is no one gets drunk, no litter is dropped, no one urinates where they should't - show me any large nationalist event and i will show you law braeking. This is clear sectarian begotry

Show me any other event with security costs like this downcow.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/09/cost-of-securing-belfast-protest-camp-to-exceed-21m-says-police-chief-george-hamilton

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It wasn't an IRA shirt even. It said 'An Srath Bán 1981-2019'.

Are you proposing a further ban on Orange Marches that go anywhere near where a Catholic/Nationalist was tragically killed...have you thought this through?

Taking offence were none was intended is not the fault of organisers downcow, that really is your problem to sort out.

I don;t know what the irish means but it looked to me like it supported 10 terrorists.

I actually think the ira have everfy right to parade through strabane provided it is legal and law abiding, which is exactly what i also feel about ABOD.

Consistency all the way with me francie. it you want thye two traditions treated differently

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don;t know what the irish means but it looked to me like it supported 10 terrorists.

I actually think the ira have everfy right to parade through strabane provided it is legal and law abiding, which is exactly what i also feel about ABOD.

Consistency all the way with me francie. it you want thye two traditions treated differently

10 men who are dead and who were serving sentences when they died.

Soldier F is still a free man and not one single person has been brought to justice after 40 years.

Slightly different situations. And they were not 'terrorists' in the eyes of those commemorating them

downcow

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I take it you have a problem with a murderer in the Orange Order the same way you would with the GAA?

N ot really as i think its too complex. Is there certain crimes that we are going to ban people for life from either the GAA or the OO? i don't think its sensible and i believe in peoples right to turn their lives around.

Are you suggesting you would ban anyone that has murdered from the GAA - and would you extend that to rapists, buglars, joyriders. i am interested where you would draw that line??

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Go for it, name the year, I'll find the incident.

This is nothing to do with Republicanism, this is an, 'actually growing up and living in the North' thing.

I have no problem with Protestants, no problem with Unionists, or Unionist culture (you'll find me arguing for respect towards Ulster Scots culture in another thread), I don't even have a problem with Orangeism (you'll note me holding up a different Orange parade as aspirational earlier in the thread), so take your lazy, cop out excuse making elsewhere and try make your point on merit rather than insults towards me.

This is ridiculous. Do you know any event involving 100,000s that there is not minor issues at the perifery. GAA matches, St Patricks day, whatever. It seems you requirement for behaviour by 100,000s at 12th is no one gets drunk, no litter is dropped, no one urinates where they should't - show me any large nationalist event and i will show you law braeking. This is clear sectarian begotry

Didn't say any of that, Downcow - 100k people, there will be litter, there will be drinking, there will even be the occasional person who acts completely antisocial.

But you know I'm not talking about that, don't you? When was the last GAA game that involved petrol bombs? When was the last St Patrick's Parade to stop outside a Protestant church to play overtly sectarian music (not music that you personally don't like, actually overtly sectarian)?

In what world is it sectarian bigotry to say, 'Orangeism isn't my cup of tea, but I'm all for supporting it, so long as it is carried out in the manner of those peaceful marches (e.g. Rossnowlagh) and we take a look at the small group of marches and 11th Night celebrations which produce a statistically anomalous number of incidents requiring emergency services?'

It is pure head in the sand stuff from you, downcow. Incidents of violence, antisocial behaviour and other criminality occur at certain specific marches at a considerably above expected level for the numbers in attendance. These few marches are responsible for the vast majority of ill will towards Orangeism.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Show me any other event with security costs like this downcow.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/09/cost-of-securing-belfast-protest-camp-to-exceed-21m-says-police-chief-george-hamilton

Show me any other event where an MP has stated that a terrorist organisation has worked hard to create difficulties for the event taking place - and commended them for it?

The security is required because nationalists want to confront the event

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The security is required because nationalists want to confront the event

One day the bubble of victimhood will burst and you will realise why protestants in the south want nothing to do with the Orange downcow.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Show me any other event where an MP has stated that a terrorist organisation has worked hard to create difficulties for the event taking place - and commended them for it?

The security is required because nationalists want to confront the event

You stated that nationalists want to confront the event only a few posts after you stated you have no problem with a serial killer of Catholics in the organisation.

So lets reverse the situation. Do you think loyalists would want to confront a nationalist march that had a serial killer of unionists in it?

downcow

steddyeddy wrote: »

You stated that nationalists want to confront the event only a few posts after you stated you have no problem with a serial killer of Catholics in the organisation.

So lets reverse the situation. Do you think loyalists would want to confront a nationalist march that had a serial killer of unionists in it?

Unionist ignore the gaa with all its murderers. Unionists in Killeen with it 95% town centre ignore the ira band lead by a killer of local people.
Do you need some evidence?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Unionist ignore the gaa with all its murderers. Unionists in Killeen with it 95% town centre ignore the ira band lead by a killer of local people.
Do you need some evidence?

Is all you have to offer 'whatabout'? Can everything be justified if 'the other side' did similar? What of the ordinary people? You need move on.

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Is all you have to offer 'whatabout'? Can everything be justified if 'the other side' did similar? What of the ordinary people? You need move on.

I answered a whataboutery question. Why don’t you challenge the person who asked it. It’s looking out of you lol

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Unionist ignore the gaa with all its murderers. Unionists in Killeen with it 95% town centre ignore the ira band lead by a killer of local people.
Do you need some evidence?

Wait so you're complaining about murderers being in an in organisation while defending a murderer in an organisation like the OO. Do you have a problem with it or not?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

I answered a whataboutery question. Why don’t you challenge the person who asked it. It’s looking out of you lol

It's all you've been doing this past few days.

downcow

I see the good people of the Bogside negotiated the removal of some tyres from the main fire but didn’t see the need to negotiate the removal of the green flag of my cross community international football team or the message that they hope Clyde valley band will all burn in hell.
Lovely moderate people

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I answered a whataboutery question. Why don’t you challenge the person who asked it. It’s looking out of you lol

The answer to the question seems to be Unionists have no problem with the march.

What you are not grasping is that people do have problems with provocative marches.

According to the Parades Commission, there hasn't been a complaint about Killeen.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Unionist ignore the gaa

The GAA isn't trying to march up your street honouring killers who murdered your neighbours.

Your desperation in attempting to draw equivalence between provocative Unionist parading and an amateur sports association is pitiful.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The answer to the question seems to be Unionists have no problem with the march.

What you are not grasping is that people do have problems with provocative marches.

According to the Parades Commission, there hasn't been a complaint about Killeen.

My point exactly. The behaviour of the republican bands in Kilkeel is disgraceful but the unionist community ignore them.

Apologies - some of the republican bands. Some are respectful.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The GAA isn't trying to march up your street honouring killers who murdered your neighbours.

Your desperation in attempting to draw equivalence between provocative Unionist parading and an amateur sports association is pitiful.

Junkyard. You see everything only through your own eyes. In my community the gaa organise wolf tonnes concerts etc which take over the centre of town for a day and night. Much more aggressive and offensive than band parades (imho)

downcow

I have just been watching a sf councillor standing in the bogside saying that she wanted to commend the young people who built the bonfire as they done everything that was asked of them. Pity no one thought it would be a good idea to ask them to take the ni football flag off the top. Funny I’ve never saw a roi football flag on a loyalist bonfire.
No doubt Francie is headed straight for google to prove me wrong. But I think he’ll struggle

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Junkyard. You see everything only through your own eyes. In my community the gaa organise wolf tonnes concerts etc which take over the centre of town for a day and night. Much more aggressive and offensive than band parades (imho)

Could you provide a few links? Also what's the problem? You state you have no problem with murderers in organisations.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

I have just been watching a sf councillor standing in the bogside saying that she wanted to commend the young people who built the bonfire as they done everything that was asked of them. Pity no one thought it would be a good idea to ask them to take the ni football flag off the top. Funny I’ve never sawseen a roi football flag on a loyalist bonfire.
No doubt Francie is headed straight for google to prove me wrong. But I think he’ll struggle

Fixed for accuracy D.

downcow

steddyeddy wrote: »

Could you provide a few links? Also what's the problem? You state you have no problem with murderers in organisations.

I don’t have a problem with it. In fact I am very proud my community allow the most provocative display the ira can parade through their are and just ignore it.

It’s hypocrisy that I despise