Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Not even remotely similar to what I said. :mad:

It was your decree. The majority of HK voters should have voted for pro-Beijing groups as a way to curry favor, to be subsumed into mainland china on 'good' terms, or something to that effect.

Your theory on Taiwan joining the CCP China fold is hilariously out of whack as well.

Ok. I'm done with this thread.

In fairness, I think this thread is done with you.

dwayneshintzy

klaz, you told me I was watching from the stands earlier. I've already mentioned in this thread that I live in HK, I'm coming up on my 5th year here.

If the PLA roll into HK, I'll affected by it a hell of a lot more than you will.

Yurt2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Now you're stretching things quite a bit. I've lived here on mainland China for over a decade... that gives me greater insight into Chinese culture compared to someone whose only exposure to China is fast food and the internet. That's you, btw.

Lol, if you only knew. You're not the first and last Irish person to live in, work in, and know China. And not to be insulting, but some of us may have done things other than teach English that may give greater insight btw.

ilkhanid

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The media is calling them 'pro democracy' protesters.
The next time there is a dissident Republican riot in Derry or Belfast we can call it a 'pro democracy' protest.
The tearing down of the flag of China and dumping it in the sea shows that there are provocateurs who are trying to escalate the situation.

What's that you say?

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Hong Kong has nearly 8 milllion people, have they a say?

It appears that they just did!

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is not some " people's movement" catalyst evolving, it looks highly organised.

Is that so?

greencap wrote: »

Then maybe they should leave China.

China's manner of control may be substandard,but its right to exercise its own laws on its own lands are indisputable.

Considering what we now knew (and should have know all along) about what's happening in Xinjiang, that term should win the Boards.ie award for euphemism of the century.

Deleted User wrote: »

Hardly any different from US political parties shifting districts borders to increase their voting power, or a host of other tricks that democratic nations do. I'm not terribly impressed with any tricks being used to influence independent voting, but I'd prefer posters were a little more balanced in the criticisms. It's not as if western political groups are innocent of manipulating votes.

Highly overstated point. Whatever about the United States (and the main culprits in this regard are the Republican party) elections in Western Europe are generally regarded as free and fair. Rigging elections in the manner often seen in South America and Africa (ballot stuffing, intimidating voters, stealing election returns etc) is practically unknown here.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup... and it means absolutely nothing.. Democracy in HK was never going to happen. You're all shouting as if they've won a great victory. They haven't. They've given Beijing the middle finger. Go team "stupid". Now, Beijing has little choice but to respond in force. This voting should have been done to appease Beijing, and gain some degree of sympathy in China. Instead, they're simply reinforcing the division between mainland China and HK...

Startling to see such an explicit echo of Brecht's famous verse

" After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?”

So in Hong Kong it's the duty of the populace to to vote in such a way as to please and reassure the government and not the job of government to act in a way responsive to the wishes of the people. Doubtless the poster believes that having forfeited the confidence of Peking the people of Hong Kong should redouble their efforts to regain it.

In fact, the citizens of Hong Kong have done the world a great service. These elections have ripped away any excuses for repression that Peking had, smashed any claims that the protestors didn't represent the will of the majority. If the authorities unleash repression, the true nature of the Xi regime will be shown to all.

Elmer Blooker

perhaps now is a good time for the citizens of HK to return to the golden era of British democracy.



Read up on the 1967 HK riots, long live democracy!

Yurt2

The British are gone.

And the '67 riots were a complex event, egged on from Beijing during era when the Red Guards were tearing mainland China apart. A hell of a lot of the populace were refugees fleeing the chaos of the mainland over the previous 20 years, and their sympathies were not with the communist elements.

ilkhanid

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

perhaps now is a good time for the citizens of HK to return to the golden era of British democracy.

Read up on the 1967 HK riots, long live democracy!

The protestors, probably most of the people who voted a couple of days back weren't even born then. Maybe you should take it up with them?

Yurt! wrote: »

The British are gone.
And the '67 riots were a complex event, egged on from Beijing during era when the Red Guards were tearing mainland China apart. A hell of a lot of the populace were refugees fleeing the chaos of the mainland over the previous 20 years, and their sympathies were not with the communist elements.

It is notable that many of the rioters in '67 were waving copies of Mao's Little Red Book, which indicates exactly where their sympathies lay. It is even more notable that, unlike the present disturbances, the riots were far from spontaneous considering that they ceased when ceased when Zhou en-Lai called a halt.

dwayneshintzy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

perhaps now is a good time for the citizens of HK to return to the golden era of British democracy.



Read up on the 1967 HK riots, long live democracy!

In your head, are the protestors simply split into pro-British and pro-Mainland camps?

pauldla

'Peking'...?

youngrun

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

In your head, are the protestors simply split into pro-British and pro-Mainland camps?

More like US backed on one hand and Hong Kong citizens /China on the other hand

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1128/1095653-trump-hk-legislation/
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hk-protests-show-signs-of-colour-revolution-experts

Like so many other revolutions , the hand of the great power is there in the background ready to take over another country , or area of natural resources/oil etc, or just disrupt the hell out of its rivals ( ref Ukraine , Bolivia in recent years )

pauldla

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

perhaps now is a good time for the citizens of HK to return to the golden era of British democracy.



Read up on the 1967 HK riots, long live democracy!

We're really getting into it now, if we are quoting Bruce Lee movies...

dwayneshintzy

youngrun wrote: »

More like US backed on one hand and Hong Kong citizens /China on the other hand

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1128/1095653-trump-hk-legislation/
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hk-protests-show-signs-of-colour-revolution-experts

Like so many other revolutions , the hand of the great power is there in the background ready to take over another country , or area of natural resources/oil etc, or just disrupt the hell out of its rivals ( ref Ukraine , Bolivia in recent years )

What absolute nonsense that is, these protests are popular. The idea that they're being fomented and led by US intervention isn't plausible. Carrie Lam and the eejits alongside her in Legco have done enough to give people legitimate grievances.

Not everyone will agree with the violence from some protestors, but the majority of people are most definitely not pro-police/pro-China. This is most recently shown in the absolute battering that pro-establishment parties took in the District Council elections.

ilkhanid

pauldla wrote: »

'Peking'...?

Yeah. We don't call it Beijing Duck, do we?

youngrun wrote: »

More like US backed on one hand and Hong Kong citizens /China on the other hand

Hong Kong citizens /China? Its pretty obvious that the citizens of Hong Kong are fundamentally opposed to China....unless the recent elections where the pro-"people's Republic" candidates were soundly trounced went under your radar.

Elmer Blooker

ilkhanid wrote: »

It is notable that many of the rioters in '67 were waving copies of Mao's Little Red Book, which indicates exactly where their sympathies lay. It is even more notable that, unlike the present disturbances, the riots were far from spontaneous considering that they ceased when ceased when Zhou en-Lai called a halt.

"Many" of the Catholics who took to the streets the following year were NOT waving Mao's little red book, in fact none of them were!
All they wanted was simply democracy, civil rights and one man, one vote (an end to 'gerrymandering') The British answer was internment without trial, letting Scottish regiments run riot in Catholic areas, shooting down unarmed protesters, torture, plastic and rubber bullets fired at point blank range at even children! I could go on and on.
The British have form and blaming Zhou & co sounds a bit too convenient for my liking, blaming 'outside' interference is an old tactic.

Hong Kong citizens /China? Its pretty obvious that the citizens of Hong Kong are fundamentally opposed to China....unless the recent elections where the pro-"people's Republic" candidates were soundly trounced went under your radar.

Good for them if they voted to destroy the economy of Hong Kong.
The tourists along with million they spend are gone, the hotels are empty.
(Reminding me a bit of Ukraine who thought their US and EU friends would come to their aid in 2014 - they didn't come and the country's economy collapsed)
Its worth noting that Hong Kong's water supply comes from the mainland, maybe Beijing should suggest that the citizens of Hong Kong source a more democratic water supply? I'm sure 'democracy' water tastes nicer too!

dwayneshintzy

Hotel business is down and rooms are definitely available at discounted rates. Hotels are not "empty".

Are you against democracy, Elmer Blooker? Which of the protestors 5 demands do you find unreasonable?

Elmer Blooker

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Are you against democracy, Elmer Blooker?

Is there such a thing as democracy anymore?
I can't tell the difference between right and left anymore, in fact I find the 'left' to be more to the right of the right these days! Confused? So am I.
Anyhow the outcome an election can easily be delegitimized by simply claiming 'Russian interference'. 'Democracy' isn't what it used to be.
edit: I should have mentioned the nauseating 'antiSemitism' campaign against Corbyn, he must have made some pro Palestinian comments?

Actually I find The Saudi Arabian brand of democracy to be very appealing.

joseywhales

youngrun wrote: »

More like US backed on one hand and Hong Kong citizens /China on the other hand

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1128/1095653-trump-hk-legislation/
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hk-protests-show-signs-of-colour-revolution-experts

Like so many other revolutions , the hand of the great power is there in the background ready to take over another country , or area of natural resources/oil etc, or just disrupt the hell out of its rivals ( ref Ukraine , Bolivia in recent years )

Oh so it is Russian interference, like in the sovereign nation of Ukraine?

Yurt2

youngrun wrote: »

More like US backed on one hand and Hong Kong citizens /China on the other hand

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1128/1095653-trump-hk-legislation/
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hk-protests-show-signs-of-colour-revolution-experts

Like so many other revolutions , the hand of the great power is there in the background ready to take over another country , or area of natural resources/oil etc, or just disrupt the hell out of its rivals ( ref Ukraine , Bolivia in recent years )

The CIA / MI6 hypnotizing millions of Hong Kongers with their Democracy Space Ray Gun again. The black hand of pernicious bourgeoisie spyscraft strikes once more. How dastardly.

I once saw a Mossad agent sitting next to me in Supermacs on O'Connell Street eating a garlic cheese chip. He had those eyebrows - you know the ones: spy-like.

ilkhanid

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"Many" of the Catholics who took to the streets the following year were NOT waving Mao's little red book, in fact none of them were!
All they wanted was simply democracy, civil rights and one man, one vote (an end to 'gerrymandering') The British answer was internment without trial, letting Scottish regiments run riot in Catholic areas, shooting down unarmed protesters, torture, plastic and rubber bullets fired at point blank range at even children! I could go on and on.
The British have form and blaming Zhou & co sounds a bit too convenient for my liking, blaming 'outside' interference is an old tactic.

I fail to see how bringing up Britain's poor record in Northern Ireland has any relevance to this topic. Might I remind you that Britain has long been absent from Hong Kong. Might I remind you also that if one seeks a comparison of the characters of the two states to try comparing Bloody Sunday and Tian'men Square. One the one hand we have the, admittedly belated-but still-Saville Inquiry, and on the other, a state where not 13, but many hundreds (other estimates run into the thousands) of people were shot down, a state where-never mind an impartial inquiry-one can get into trouble with the authorities for even discussing the events of June 1989.I don't doubt that the young people of Hong Kong are well aware of the differences too, and not the dupes and fools that you take them for.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Good for them if they voted to destroy the economy of Hong Kong.
The tourists along with million they spend are gone, the hotels are empty.
(Reminding me a bit of Ukraine who thought their US and EU friends would come to their aid in 2014 - they didn't come and the country's economy collapsed)
Its worth noting that Hong Kong's water supply comes from the mainland, maybe Beijing should suggest that the citizens of Hong Kong source a more democratic water supply? I'm sure 'democracy' water tastes nicer too!

What is this spiteful garbage? I'm sure you regard yourself as wiser then the people of Hong Kong. I recommend a holiday there to see the reception you'll get. I'm sure they'll be sorry they disappointed you. I'm reminded of the Western fans of despotism who used to pronounce on the backwardness of the benighted citizenry of places like Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Poland and who didn't appreciate the benefits of the "Socialism" imposed upon them at the point of a bayonet.

pauldla

ilkhanid wrote: »

Yeah. We don't call it Beijing Duck, do we?

...

Depends on if you're talking about a delicious meal of sliced roast duck or the capital city of the People's Republic of China.

And I've seen it on menus as Beijing Duck, for what it's worth.

But never mind, carry on. I'm sure you have your reasons.

ilkhanid

I do. I have a strong dislike of Pinyin and it's weird spellings and ubiquitous 'x's' (not that Wade-Giles didn't have problems)..and I'm not the only one. Even Taiwan didn't adopt the mainland version but a modified one and its still retains the old spelling for places where people were familiar with the old spelling: it's still 'Taipei' not 'Taibei'. I have an unpleasant memory of combing laboriously through my old copy of a standard history of Chinese Art, pencilling in the new spellings of all the people and places.

Elmer Blooker

ilkhanid wrote: »

What is this spiteful garbage? I'm sure you regard yourself as wiser then the people of Hong Kong. I recommend a holiday there to see the reception you'll get. I'm sure they'll be sorry they disappointed you.

No they haven't disappointed me, I don't have to live there as the autonomous region of Hong Kong enters recession and with the capital flight underway.
I have absolutely no doubt who are the big winners and who are the big losers here. Didn't I mention Ukraine yesterday?

By the way I see a direct connection between the way the British dealt with restless natives 50 years ago.

Chris_Heilong

ilkhanid wrote: »

I do. I have a strong dislike of Pinyin and it's weird spellings and ubiquitous 'x's' (not that Wade-Giles didn't have problems)..and I'm not the only one. Even Taiwan didn't adopt the mainland version but a modified one and its still retains the old spelling for places where people were familiar with the old spelling: it's still 'Taipei' not 'Taibei'. I have an unpleasant memory of combing laboriously through my old copy of a standard history of Chinese Art, pencilling in the new spellings of all the people and places.

But Pinyin is a lot more accurate to how the language is spoken, Taiwan just want to do things its own way, who could blame them. But anything is better than wade-Gilles.

dwayneshintzy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No they haven't disappointed me, I don't have to live there as the autonomous region of Hong Kong enters recession and with the capital flight underway.
I have absolutely no doubt who are the big winners and who are the big losers here. Didn't I mention Ukraine yesterday?

By the way I see a direct connection between the way the British dealt with restless natives 50 years ago.

OK Elmer, so how do you see this affecting the Hong Kong economy in the short to medium term?


You're predicting an economic collapse. What will that look like for civil servants, tax rates, property prices, etc, over the next year or two?

Elmer Blooker

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

OK Elmer, so how do you see this affecting the Hong Kong economy in the short to medium term?


You're predicting an economic collapse. What will that look like for civil servants, tax rates, property prices, etc, over the next year or two?

I said recession and not economic collapse.
The days of the big spender tourists from the main land are gone for starters. I also think its days as a major financial hub are gone too.
This bit from the BBC is interesting, you would wonder what the protests were really about especially after the extradition bill was withdrawn and the protests turned even more violent.

Hong Kong - a British colony until 1997 - is part of China under a model known as "one country, two systems".
Under this model, Hong Kong has a high degree of autonomy and people have freedoms unseen in mainland China.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50431614

dwayneshintzy

How much do you actually know about Hong Kong?

The lack of a democratically elected Chief Executive, functional constituencies rigging Legco in favour of pro-Beijing parties, encroachment of mainland rule which was only exemplified by the introduction of the extradition bill, ridiculously heavy handed and disproportionate force by the police .....that's what the protests are really about.

You're right that people in HK have more freedoms, and they don't want to lose them.

Chris_Heilong

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

How much do you actually know about Hong Kong?

The lack of a democratically elected Chief Executive, functional constituencies rigging Legco in favour of pro-Beijing parties, encroachment of mainland rule which was only exemplified by the introduction of the extradition bill, ridiculously heavy handed and disproportionate force by the police .....that's what the protests are really about.

You're right that people in HK have more freedoms, and they don't want to lose them.

Well it was always going to go that way as they slowly transition back to full Chinese control which is inevitable. In 30 years time Hong Kong will be very similar to Shanghai, a place with a lot of money floating around but with no electoral power or say over how they are ruled.

ilkhanid

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No they haven't disappointed me, I don't have to live there as the autonomous region of Hong Kong enters recession and with the capital flight underway.
I have absolutely no doubt who are the big winners and who are the big losers here. Didn't I mention Ukraine yesterday?

Indeed. such a perverse, delinquent, ungrateful and uncooperative people. God forbid they might do something as unreasonable and capricious as being willing to forgo the prosperity awaiting them as willing, obedient subjects of Lord Xi, instead wishing for something as impossible as a measure of democracy and the Rule of law. There's no accounting for people, is there?

seenitall

What they are wishing for (for their voice to be heeded in a democratic manner) is an impossibility, and they and their dreams will be quashed like so many bugs underfoot.

Still, it bouys up my spirit no end, and claws back a bit of my faith in humanity, to see all those young, hopeful, idealistic faces in the HK university.

Adversity does bring out the best and the most courageous in many people. Were it not so, I would find this world a most dreadful place (as I do often enough anyway).

pauldla

ilkhanid wrote: »

I do. I have a strong dislike of Pinyin and it's weird spellings and ubiquitous 'x's' (not that Wade-Giles didn't have problems)..and I'm not the only one. Even Taiwan didn't adopt the mainland version but a modified one and its still retains the old spelling for places where people were familiar with the old spelling: it's still 'Taipei' not 'Taibei'. I have an unpleasant memory of combing laboriously through my old copy of a standard history of Chinese Art, pencilling in the new spellings of all the people and places.

Funny, I had to do the opposite with Fung Yu-Lan's A Short History of Chinese Philosophy, and put in all the Pinyin version of the names in the margin in pencil. I suppose any attempt to Romanize Chinese is going to run into difficulties somewhere along the line. Might the Wade-Giles system have a different focus than Pinyin, in that Pinyin is more of a 'stepping stone' to learning Hanzi? I've never tried reading anything substantial in Wade-Giles, but long tracts of Pinyin are basically unreadable.

That aside, it's becoming unusual to see people referring to 'Peking'; from my experience it's usually those with some kind of agenda.