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Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

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    #692
    iamgroot
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭iamgroot


    Yurt! wrote: »
    The KMT were/are Chinese nationalists and were part of the great wave of nationalist movements of the 20th century.

    *Chinese* nationlism, not Taiwanese. You know the history of the KMT right? Sun Yay Sen etc? And that there is an (ersatz) KMT on the mainland also?

    yea of course. All I was doing was pointing out that the 'nationalists' in this context refers to the KMT. Noone refers to the DPP as the 'nationalists' because that would be confusing.


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    #693
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    iamgroot wrote: »
    yea of course. All I was doing was pointing out that the 'nationalists' in this context refers to the KMT

    There is a Taiwanese nationalism. It was clear that was what he was referring to.


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    #694
    iamgroot
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭iamgroot


      Yurt! wrote: »
      There is a Taiwanese nationalism. It was clear that was what he was referring to.


      Ok so from now on ill be referring to sinn fein as the 'unionist party' and that will be really clear when I do that. It wont be confusing at all. Obviously they are Irish unionists you see.


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      #695
      Yurt2
      Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


      iamgroot wrote: »


        Ok so from now on ill be referring to sinn fein as the 'unionist party' and that will be really clear when I do that. It wont be confusing at all. Obviously they are Irish unionists you see.

        If you like. But there is a very obvious contemporary Taiwanese nationalism. And the KMT is a legacy party of the Chinese nationalist movement, hence their name. I think you may be the one getting confused here.

        He/she didn't refer to them as *the* nationalist party. He/she said 'the more nationalist-inclined' referencing Taiwanese nationalism/independence.


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        #696
        iamgroot
        Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭iamgroot


        Yurt! wrote: »
        If you like. But there is a very obvious contemporary Taiwanese nationalism. And the KMT is a legacy party of the Chinese nationalist movement, hence their name. I think you may be the one getting confused here.

        He/she didn't refer to them as *the* nationalist party. He/she said 'the more nationalist-inclined' referencing Taiwanese nationalism/independence.

        Ok so I'll refer to sinn fein as 'the more unionist inclined party'. As there clearly is a contemporary Irish unionisim.

        I dont see why I am confused when I point out that the party that are called 'the nationalists' are the nationalists, thats what they are called.


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        #697
        Yurt2
        Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


        iamgroot wrote: »
        Ok so I'll refer to sinn fein as 'the more unionist inclined party'. As there clearly is a contemporary Irish unionisim.

        I dont see why I am confused when I point out that the party that are called 'the nationalists' are the nationalists, thats what they are called.

        He/she never called the DPP *the nationalist party*, he said that they were more 'nationalist inclined party', which in the Taiwanese context is completely accurate.

        The early-20th century Chinese nationalist tradition from which KMT name derives doesn't correlate to the Taiwanese nationalist / soft-independance stance of the DPP.

        You were playing gotcha, when they were actually pretty on the button with what they posted.

        As for Sinn Fein, you can call them the winged-pink elephant party if you like, it has nothing to do with Taiwan and you're dancing on the head of a pin.


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        #698
        iamgroot
        Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭iamgroot


        Yurt! wrote: »
        He/she never called the DPP *the nationalist party*, he said that they were more 'nationalist inclined party', which in the Taiwanese context is completely accurate.

        The early-20th century Chinese nationalist tradition from which KMT name derives doesn't correlate to the Taiwanese nationalist / soft-independance stance of the DPP.

        You were playing gotcha, when they were actually pretty on the button with what they posted.

        As for Sinn Fein, you can call them the winged-pink elephant party if you like, it has nothing to do with Taiwan and you're dancing on the head of a pin.


        Yes you are totally correct. The DPP - who don't refer to themselves as the nationalists - and who don't tend to wave the national flag so much when election campaigning, are the 'more nationalist inclined party'. Meanwhile the KMT who do refer to themselves as the nationalists, and who wave the national flag prominently at their election rallies are less nationalistically inclined. Its all so clear now. Thank you.


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        #699
        Yurt2
        Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


        iamgroot wrote: »
        Yes you are totally correct. The DPP - who don't refer to themselves as the nationalists - and who don't tend to wave the national flag so much when election campaigning, are the 'more nationalist inclined party'. Meanwhile the KMT who do refer to themselves as the nationalists, and who wave the national flag prominently at their election rallies are less nationalistically inclined. Its all so clear now. Thank you.

        Taiwanese nationalism. Google. Learn.


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        #700
        iamgroot
        Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭iamgroot


        Yurt! wrote: »
        Taiwanese nationalism. Google. Learn.

        Irish unionism, duck duck go, cleverise yourself


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        #701
        Yurt2
        Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


        iamgroot wrote: »
        Irish unionism, duck duck go, cleverise yourself


        "The Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) is a Taiwanese nationalist and liberal political party in Taiwan.."

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party


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        #702
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3085412/two-sessions-2020-how-far-will-beijing-go-push-article-23

        Massive escalation from Beijing on the cards


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        #703
        Yurt2
        Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


        One country two systems well and truly dead if this gets imposed, which it likely will.


        Another cycle of mass-protests is on the way. The current iteration of the CCP truly are world class dunderheads.


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        #704
        Muahahaha
        Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


        Pretty serious move by Beijing, they'll basically label any protester as a terrorist and lock them up


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        #705
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        Pompeo has announced that the US no longer considers HK autonomous from China


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        #706
        Muahahaha
        Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


        Just saw Pompeos move, Beijing supposed to be furious.

        Things are escalating quickly in Hong Kong, footage today of police taking school children away and now the legislature is trying to ram through a new law to force schoolchildren to sing the Chinese national anthem every day. Any mocking or booing of the Chinese national anthem now in Hong Kong will attract a 3 year prison sentence.


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        #707
        4068ac1elhodqr
        Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


        There was talk of the uk considering offering refuge for many over there, might'nt be a bad idea considering historic factors.




        The funniest thing about HK is that (along with the various Arab springs): 'technology' (social media, secure messaging) was seen as a welcome aid - to freedom and expression.

        As of now, in HK and across the Arab world, even China itself, that is starting to look like the opposite. 180 degree role reversal. Technology will become their oppressor.


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        #708
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        The anthem law doesn't deal with forcing students to sing it daily, only with punishments for causing offense to it.


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        #709
        kowloonkev
        Registered Users Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


        Police have been well prepared for the new waves of protests. Blocking off access to areas where large gatherings are likely and where government is meeting. If this is going to be the police strategy in preventing protests, and giving no outlet for demonstrations, then I dread to think of the only alternatives left for the pro-dems to show their discontent.


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        #710
        2u2me
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


        ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
        A lot of people couldn't believe they were just abandoned.

        Dominic Raab offers to welcome in Hong Kong residents if Beijing doesn't scrap new security laws for the territory.

        Foreign secretary unwilling to let a trade deal with soon to be biggest economy get in the way with standing up for British principles and values.

        Good on him. China furious.



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        #711
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        As far as I can tell, it's not a very practical solution from the UK and seems to be more of a PR exercise than anything. Could be wrong, but it seems it will actually be a renewable 12 month visa (that may prove costly), and Hong Kongers coming over may not even be free to work.

        Also, tonight's vigil will be available online; https://hka8964.wordpress.com/2020/06/02/6431clv/


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        #712
        2u2me
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


        dwayneshintzy wrote: »
        As far as I can tell, it's not a very practical solution from the UK and seems to be more of a PR exercise than anything.

        That just seems odd considering they have brexit to deal with and a trade deal to strike with China. Why poke the bear unnecessarily?

        If this is true they have a lot to lose and little to gain.


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        #713
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        I'm not sure, but the way it's being reported by some is as a "path to citizenship". If you look into it, that path is quite convoluted and costly.


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        #714
        pauldla
        Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


        dwayneshintzy wrote: »
        I'm not sure, but the way it's being reported by some is as a "path to citizenship". If you look into it, that path is quite convoluted and costly.


        A very interesting article from Foreign Policy, describing the situation and its intricacies.

        https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/03/hong-kong-british-citizenship-bno-empire-nationality/


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        #715
        2u2me
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


        Yuan Yi Zhu's article is not without bias. He says this is about the 'legacy of empire' when in fact, I believe it may just be the UK applying whatever pressure they can, willing to bite the bullet and stand up for what's right.

        Something they eventually did with the Ugandan Asians, as much as he makes out they didn't want to help (You could argue the same thing before this week with the UK). Any Ugandan Asians that didn't emigrate to the UK found home in Canada, Kenya or India.

        The US are also furiously scrambling to see what political pressure they can apply to Hong Kong given this new security bill, aren't they considering removing the special trade status of Hong Kong?


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        #716
        suicide_circus
        Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


        how much looting was involved in the hong kong ptotests


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        #717
        2u2me
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


        They 'looted' their parliament, removed the Chinese flag and raised the British flag.


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        #718
        Muahahaha
        Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


        dwayneshintzy wrote: »
        I'm not sure, but the way it's being reported by some is as a "path to citizenship". If you look into it, that path is quite convoluted and costly.

        From what Ive read the Foreign Office are playng a game of brinkmanship with Beijing. One statement said that around 800,000 would be entitled to a passport, another said it could be up to three million. London wants to make Beijing stop and think about their actions and one tool is a perceived or potential threat of a brain drain and a mass exodus of citizens from HK to the UK.

        I cant see it happening in any case especially against the backdrop of Brexit and the populace there tired of constant immigration plus the Covid economic fall out on top. Domnic Raab is just posturing in floating these ideas, there will be little to no follow through.

        The situation in the US at the moment also gives Beijing political cover to do as they please in HK with these sedition laws. Nonetheless Trump is under pressure so Id expect some lash outs at China to be incoming very soon, it riles up his base.


      27. Options
        #719
        dwayneshintzy
        Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


        suicide_circus wrote: »
        how much looting was involved in the hong kong ptotests
        Very little, a few isolated cases just. Lots and lots of businesses smashed up though, there was just a point made to take nothing.

        And 2u2me, think we'd just have to agree to disagree on the motives of Johnson, Raab, Patel, et al in any path to citizenship. I don't think they'll do anything out of the goodness of their hearts.


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        #720
        2u2me
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


        dwayneshintzy wrote: »
        And 2u2me, think we'd just have to agree to disagree on the motives of Johnson, Raab, Patel, et al in any path to citizenship. I don't think they'll do anything out of the goodness of their hearts.

        That's fair enough. In the beginning of this thread people were complaining that the UK were not offering citizenship for the HongKongers, I was merely adding that this has now changed.

        Our opinions on why surely can differ.


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        #721
        pauldla
        Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


        2u2me wrote: »
        Yuan Yi Zhu's article is not without bias. He says this is about the 'legacy of empire' when in fact, I believe it may just be the UK applying whatever pressure they can, willing to bite the bullet and stand up for what's right.

        Something they eventually did with the Ugandan Asians, as much as he makes out they didn't want to help (You could argue the same thing before this week with the UK). Any Ugandan Asians that didn't emigrate to the UK found home in Canada, Kenya or India.

        The US are also furiously scrambling to see what political pressure they can apply to Hong Kong given this new security bill, aren't they considering removing the special trade status of Hong Kong?

        It's this 'legacy of empire' that allows the UK a mechanism to offer eventual citizenship for BN(O), is it not? I'm not clear what bias you are referring to?


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