Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

dwayneshintzy

Jimmy Lai arrested and Apple Daily offices raided

Terrible sign of the way things are going in Hong Kong....

biko

At least they (the HK protesters) really tried. Standing up to China isn't easily done and since no country stepped in (or could step in) they are now pretty much ****ed in a democratic sense.

Gatling

biko wrote: »

At least they (the HK protesters) really tried. Standing up to China isn't easily done and since no country stepped in (or could step in) they are now pretty much ****ed in a democratic sense.

Everyone is afraid to speak against China they own half the world at this rate ,
I'd still love to see the HK citizens declare independence and really rattle the cage but I get the feeling the Chinese would turn HK into a shooting range rather quickly with no hope of any outside help,

Taiwan has to be worried at this stage , Chinese long range bombers have being regularly seen carrying out practice bombing runs in the south China sea , suggesting there getting ready for something

TheValeyard

Yeah, Hong Kong is dead.


But the world can do something about China. Refuse to buy their goods force Western companies to relocate, maybe India, sure it has its problems but at least its a democracy.

Bar wealthy Chinese from travel to Western nations. Basically turn China into a pariah. The government might change their mind when the elite in society have assets striped, frozen or removed from powerful party members.

James Brown

TheValeyard wrote: »

Yeah, Hong Kong is dead.


But the world can do something about China. Refuse to buy their goods force Western companies to relocate, maybe India, sure it has its problems but at least its a democracy.

Bar wealthy Chinese from travel to Western nations. Basically turn China into a pariah. The government might change their mind when the elite in society have assets striped, frozen or removed from powerful party members.

As with Putin. Once there's money to be made human rights and doing the right thing take a back seat.
China should be penalised for how it treats it's own.

Muahahaha

Id say it wont be long before they lock up Joshua Wong as well. What a brave young man, he knows prison is coming but he refuses to leave HK

briany

If people can't be bothered to get some unified action on climate change going, I don't see how they'll do anything about China. Just replace the argument about whether climate change is even real to 'I don't earn enough to afford a significant markup on my consumer goods.' If money talks, that's a winning argument.

Manach

If the Irish Government had the courage of its professed convictions on human rights, it would switch recognistion to Taiwan. I read the book "The big stick" by Eliot Cohen. In that, it posited that for soft power to work (as opposed to military options) there has to be the moral impetus to make the sacrifice to uphold the choice of human rights over economic gain. As a theoritical neutral power, Ireland could have made an impact by such a move. But like the usual governmental posturing, the appearence of morality/wokeness is preferred to acting.

Bonniedog

Manach wrote: »

If the Irish Government had the courage of its professed convictions on human rights, it would switch recognistion to Taiwan. I read the book "The big stick" by Eliot Cohen. In that, it posited that for soft power to work (as opposed to military options) there has to be the moral impetus to make the sacrifice to uphold the choice of human rights over economic gain. As a theoritical neutral power, Ireland could have made an impact by such a move. But like the usual governmental posturing, the appearence of morality/wokeness is preferred to acting.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Irish state to take any moral stand!

The obsequiousness towards China is almost total. Only 12 TDs and Senators signed a letter protesting over the Uighur genocide. 12 out of over 200, and I think just 3/4 from the govt parties and not one Shinner - the great human rights advocates.

Just noticed your quote from Scruton. Wasn't it he who described Chinese economic system as "gangland capitalism."? Marxist totalitarianism and robber baron capitalism are not a good combination.

It is a state that V.M Vargas would love!

Infini

Bowie wrote: »

As with Putin. Once there's money to be made human rights and doing the right thing take a back seat.
China should be penalised for how it treats it's own.

It probably will in the long run. The chinese people themselves are no different from anyone else in the world, the problem in all of this is and always has been the CCP. Some probably thought that by helping China become more properous that they would become more like the rest of the world but sadly XI and co pretty much have other ideas. Until they realise they'll stagnate or struggle to advance beyond their current position with their current attitude towards other nations and countries and are forced to change somewhat the only thing that realistically can be done is to limit and restrict trade with them and become far less dependant on them for things.

HK was always going to suffer a loss of freedoms because of it being part of china, I just don't think those back then thought the CCP would move to dismantle them as quick as they have. That being said China under the CCP has become a major liability in international terms in part because of their handling of the Coronavirus, had they not supressed thing's so early on thing's might not have gotten out of hand as they have. This has ironically focused alot of international attention on them and long term wise will lead to changes to tolerate less of their carryon.

Only thing that can really be done in the long term is to quite simply relocate any manufacturing and such away from back towards either the west or to places more alligned with modern democratic values. The CCP has to be given the message that as long as they continue with their currrent behaviour that they'll find themselves limited in economic and diplomatic terms as they're pissing off alot of other countries with their behaviour.

Rodney Bathgate

Bonniedog wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Irish state to take any moral stand!

The obsequiousness towards China is almost total. Only 12 TDs and Senators signed a letter protesting over the Uighur genocide. 12 out of over 200, and I think just 3/4 from the govt parties and not one Shinner - the great human rights advocates.

Just noticed your quote from Scruton. Wasn't it he who described Chinese economic system as "gangland capitalism."? Marxist totalitarianism and robber baron capitalism are not a good combination.

It is a state that V.M Vargas would love!

There is an ongoing thread giving out about us losing out on Chinese investment for a new meat processing factory.

We should be thankful the deal has fallen through.

dwayneshintzy

TheValeyard wrote: »

Yeah, Hong Kong is dead.


But the world can do something about China. Refuse to buy their goods force Western companies to relocate, maybe India, sure it has its problems but at least its a democracy.

Bar wealthy Chinese from travel to Western nations. Basically turn China into a pariah. The government might change their mind when the elite in society have assets striped, frozen or removed from powerful party members.

Things are getting bad in HK, and have been getting bad for a while now. But I don't agree with the bolded bit; not saying it's how you meant it personally, but it's very common for people to say this and it comes across as quite flippant. There are more than 7 million people in Hong Kong, there are still so many amazing things to the region, and I wouldn't say the people have given up. Hong Kong isn't dead yet.

Yurt2

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Things are getting bad in HK, and have been getting bad for a while now. But I don't agree with the bolded bit; not saying it's how you meant it personally, but it's very common for people to say this and it comes across as quite flippant. There are more than 7 million people in Hong Kong, there are still so many amazing things to the region, and I wouldn't say the people have given up. Hong Kong isn't dead yet.

Beijing is strangling what's wonderful about the place.

A few mainland Chinese I know when pressed had deep antipathy towards Hong Kongers who they felt looked down on mainlanders.

The CCP treats places like Hong Kong / Xinjiang / Tibet like real estate opportunities rather than places where humans live that hold values and opinions of their own.

The other day I was speaking to a British girl who was born and raised in HK. Her parents are retired there and had intended to live out the rest of their lives in a place they considered home. Now they are uprooting in the winter of their lives to go back to Blighty such is the level of rapid and negative change.

It's not just British or other Europeans that have been there a long time. Many ethnicities call HK home. Indians, Sikhs, Nepalese etc. Now it's just a target of thin-skinned red nationalists.

dwayneshintzy

Yurt! wrote: »

Beijing is strangling what's wonderful about the place.

They're trying to, yes. They haven't succeeded yet, though the arrest of opposition media is one of the worst signs yet.

ilkhanid

Bonniedog wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Irish state to take any moral stand!

Nor, apparently, are Sinn Fein willing to take a stand. They take their compass from the attitude of the British Government. If Downing Street goes one way, Mary Lou will go the opposite way.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/sinn-fein-faces-questions-as-mep-abstains-from-condemnation-of-hong-kong-crackdown-39445591.html

Gatling

Nice to know sf supports such self determination