Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 11:02pm

Gatling wrote: »

Tell that to the citizens of Hong Kong it's seem the citizens want actual democracy not Chinese rule

All i see is protestors fighting with police officers and smashing cars and property. If they want democracy protest peacefully. The crowds don't look huge to me despite what people are saying on here- 2 million protestors can you show me these pictures please?

Yurt2 · 13-08-2019 11:04pm

mzungu wrote: »

Hopefully the protests continue. Once China gets its claws fully into Hong Kong there will be no option for protest. The Chinese would be very silly to go in heavy handed. They may have been able to get away with Tiananmen but that kind of thing will not go down well these days. Although, I couldn't see a western intervention if they did.

How they handle this will have implications with cross-straight relations as well, which are already at their poorest for decades. If they enter HK, you can expect a further hardening of attitudes in Taipei, can kiss the Kuomintang goodbye (probably for good) and a re-ignition of the Taiwanese independence movement, which would probably have a lot more international sympathy if the PRC get a HK intervention wrong.

Yurt2 · 13-08-2019 11:10pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

All i see is protestors fighting with police officers and smashing cars and property. If they want democracy protest peacefully. The crowds don't look huge to me despite what people are saying on here- 2 million protestors can you show me these pictures please?

Are you kidding me? These are some of the largest political protests of all time (if not the largest, I can think of few that would top it, perhaps India during their independence movement). Various news sites including the South China Morning Post (which has a softish editorial stance towards Beijing in recent years) estimated one march at about 2 million. As for photos, there are plenty online should you care to look.

BlackandGreen · 13-08-2019 11:11pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

All i see is protestors fighting with police officers and smashing cars and property. If they want democracy protest peacefully. The crowds don't look huge to me despite what people are saying on here- 2 million protestors can you show me these pictures please?

Have you your head buried in the sand or just an ignorant PRC sympathizer that cherry picks your news? Why should we spoon feed you information that is widely available all over the internet.

And how many times does it have to be said...PROTESTING PEACEFULLY HAS NOT WORKED AND WILL NOT WORK (anymore), against an authoritarian regime.

Hong Kongers have been driven to this out of sheer desperation. Peaceful routes have failed consistently. ALL of their protests have started out peaceful until the police invoked the violence and taunted protestors.

Do you have any idea how ruthless china is? They don't give two shíts about peaceful protests.
Not to mention all legal and peaceful protest means have now essentially been outlawed.

Jesus wept.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 11:15pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Are you kidding me? These are some of the largest political protests of all time (if not the largest, I can think of few that would top it, perhaps India during their independence movement). Various news sites including the South China Morning Post (which has a softish editorial stance towards Beijing in recent years) estimated one march at about 2 million. As for photos, there are plenty online should you care to look.

Mass peaceful protest in Hong Kong against a controversial extradition bill. Now is something else, and what left is aggressive protestors trying to destroy the Hong Kong government. The disrupting the country and bringing it to a stand still. Hong Kong has nearly 8 milllion people, have they a say?

BlackandGreen · 13-08-2019 11:20pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Hong Kong has nearly 8 milllion people, have they a say?

No. They don't. That's the whole issue.
If the government served their people and listened to their cries and weren't simply PRC puppets then all of this would calm.

Yurt2 · 13-08-2019 11:25pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

. Hong Kong has nearly 8 milllion people, have they a say?

They are having it. When over a quarter of a population are on the streets I think it's a fairly mild statement to say that a political tipping point has been reached. Speak to someone from Hong Kong, the vast vast majority are on-board with the movement. The minority who aren't would typically large commercial interests who have to tow the Beijing line because dirty mainland money is in their business, people who emigrated from the mainland (usually filthy wealthy) and the politically connected.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 11:27pm

BlackandGreen wrote: »

No. They don't. That's the whole issue.
If the government served their people and listened to their cries and weren't simply PRC puppets then all of this would calm.

Hong Kong citizens did not come out in force to change the government, the came out to protest against a controversial extradition bill. Thats why the protestors numbers have dropped off, they are not demanding a change of government.

Chinese government and Hong Kong government response. You trying to tell me they not listening?

On June 16th hundreds of thousands of protesters marched across Hong Kong Island to call for the permanent withdrawal of the extradition bill and the resignation of the region’s chief executive, Carrie Lam. At the day’s end the government issued a statement confirming that there was no timetable for restarting the passage of the bill. Mrs Lam also used the statement to apologise to the people of Hong Kong and “pledged to adopt a most sincere and humble attitude to accept criticisms and make improvements in serving the public.”

Carrie Lam, announced the indefinite shelving of a proposed law that would allow the extradition of criminal suspects to mainland China

https://www.economist.com/china/2019/06/15/hong-kongs-leader-backs-down-over-controversial-extradition-bill

TheValeyard · 13-08-2019 11:38pm

Its disturbing to see posters here defending the Chinese government.

The same government that has more than a million Muslims in concentration camps, the same government where if you disagree with the State, you vanish.
The same government that is illegally harvesting the organs of people to give them to the super rich. The same government that is claiming territory in the ocean, building weapons bases and airfields.

The Chinese government is a backward, authoritarian, despotic regime.

BlackandGreen · 13-08-2019 11:39pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You trying to tell me they not listening?

Absolutely. The bill is still there. It has not been withdrawn.

Your article is from early June. It's been heavily discussed and debated by Hong Kongers since and they're not satisfied.

https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/bills/bill_1620.htm

Lam is stalling, that quote is laughable and shelving it is just kicking the can down the road to silence protestors. Again, She's a puppet.

Also, the protests are for far more than just the extradition bill at this stage. Have you not been reading this thread? You don't seem to know much about these protests at all.

You're using the weakest arguments to try discredit protests too. Burning cars? Hasn't happened.

The protestors love their city and country. They've regularly cleaned up after themselves and lent a helping hand such as tonight after the airport occupation.

Yurt2 · 13-08-2019 11:42pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Hong Kong citizens did not come out in force to change the government, the came out to protest against a controversial extradition bill. Thats why the protestors numbers have dropped off, they are not demanding a change of government.

Chinese government and Hong Kong government response. You trying to tell me they not listening?

On June 16th hundreds of thousands of protesters marched across Hong Kong Island to call for the permanent withdrawal of the extradition bill and the resignation of the region’s chief executive, Carrie Lam. At the day’s end the government issued a statement confirming that there was no timetable for restarting the passage of the bill. Mrs Lam also used the statement to apologise to the people of Hong Kong and “pledged to adopt a most sincere and humble attitude to accept criticisms and make improvements in serving the public.”

Carrie Lam, announced the indefinite shelving of a proposed law that would allow the extradition of criminal suspects to mainland China

https://www.economist.com/china/2019/06/15/hong-kongs-leader-backs-down-over-controversial-extradition-bill

You realize the bolded statement was almost certainly written by the Hong Kong Liason Office (essentialy the Lord-lieutenant from Beijing)? If you know anything about China, you'd recognize that language as coming directly from the pen of a party cadre and not a Cambridge educated woman that Lam is. The movement has been calling for Lam's head, political reform and a popular elected goverment (instead of the bizzare electoral college dominated by special interests) from the get-go.

13-08-2019 11:48pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Mass peaceful protest in Hong Kong against a controversial extradition bill. Now is something else, and what left is aggressive protestors trying to destroy the Hong Kong government. The disrupting the country and bringing it to a stand still. Hong Kong has nearly 8 milllion people, have they a say?

By any chance, do you work for the PRC because you are peddling propaganda? The extradition bill has only been shelved.

BlackandGreen · 13-08-2019 11:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

By any chance, do you work for the PRC because you are peddling propaganda? The extradition bill has only been shelved.

Wumao!

paid .50c per comment.

Beanntraigheach · 14-08-2019 12:16am

It's a pity there wasn't some way that the UK could have ceded Honk Kong to Taiwan/The Republic of China.
I understand that the reaction from the PRC to any such attempt might have been an all out military invasion, but if it had been possible it surely would have been massively better for the people of Hong Kong.

Noo · 14-08-2019 1:40am

BlackandGreen wrote: »

Hong Kong is one of the most amazingly diverse, free and beautiful countries in the world. The people are amazing, and it's such a melting pot of culture and diversity.
It really is miles ahead of mainland China, but unfortunately its being erroded at an alarming rate. The HK now is very VERY different to the HK of 10 or 5 years ago. For the worse.

This.
What you essentially have is a free, democratic country slowing being taken over by a communist regime, with the public aware of an official Chinese takeover in 50 years (less than 30 years at this stage, and even less at the rate the Chinese are moving in).

This revolt was always going to happen, just a matter of when.
When I was there going through their history museums my thoughts were "are they really just gonna let that happen? Surely they'd fight for their independence before allowing a full communist takeover over?"
It was so cruel to think that the people there had to submit to a chinese takeover of their way of life just because of some deal between Britain and china years ago.

I really hope that they achieve their goals, with minimal bloodshed (although that's looking less likely).

joseywhales · 14-08-2019 4:58am

The terrorist rhetoric from China is laughable, true terrorism is not a bunch of kids dragging railings around and fighting off riot police.

God help them , if they do create an environment for organised terrorism with their authoritarianism.

The protesters need to not escalate violence and be patient, continue to frustrate and cost the government and business money and reputation, do not react to the police infiltration tactics, the goal should be to get the pla to invade and create a massive international incident, that will fuel discontent with the central power for years. They need to win the PR battle and grow their support for further uprising in the future.

weldoninhio · 14-08-2019 8:08am

joseywhales wrote: »

The terrorist rhetoric from China is laughable, true terrorism is not a bunch of kids dragging railings around and fighting off riot police.

God help them , if they do create an environment for organised terrorism with their authoritarianism.

The protesters need to not escalate violence and be patient, continue to frustrate and cost the government and business money and reputation, do not react to the police infiltration tactics, the goal should be to get the pla to invade and create a massive international incident, that will fuel discontent with the central power for years. They need to win the PR battle and grow their support for further uprising in the future.

In reality, the PLA could march in at any time and absolutely destroy the protestors. There’d be a bit of whinging in the western media, a few statements of condemnation from western politicians and within a week or two another story would be dominating the news cycle.

realitykeeper · 14-08-2019 10:23am

Gatling wrote: »

Tell that to the citizens of Hong Kong it's seem the citizens want actual democracy not Chinese rule

Hong Kong is part of China. If the Brits hadn`t been drug pushers we probably would never have heard of Hong Kong, it would just be a little bit of China that never warranted mention in the news or the history books. In a hundred years from now, most people in Hong Kong will not even know the territory was ever ruled by the Brits and those who do won`t care.

Yurt2 · 14-08-2019 10:32am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Hong Kong is part of China. If the Brits hadn`t been drug pushers we probably would never have heard of Hong Kong, it would just be a little bit of China that never warranted mention in the news or the history books. In a hundred years from now, most people in Hong Kong will not even know the territory was ever ruled by the Brits and those who do won`t care.

Hong Kong is the least Chinese part of China you could think of. It has many people of South-Asian / European descent living there since birth as well as the Cantonese Chinese majority. It's outlook and cultural dna is a million miles from the CCP. Just because the people look Chinese, doesn't mean they think the same as them. Since the handover deal, a conflict like this, while not inevitable, was likely if Beijing didn't tread carefully. Xi has screwed the pooch - I don't think this genie is going back in the bottle. Xi has staked his political future on the handling of this; if he gets it wrong, you can be sure he has enemies in the party that will move against him. From my vantage point, he has gotten it badly wrong, he has lost a whole generation of Hong Kongers over the course of a few short years and it will be difficult to repair the damage. It's astonishing to see people here mount a defense of Beijing. But, this is boards.

Similarly, it could be just as likely in a hundred years time, people will be saying: "Did you know China was ruled by a one-party communist government once upon a time?"

Mancomb Seepgood · 14-08-2019 10:39am

Someone mentioned the lack of response from the hard-left in the West - looking at the article about it on the Morning Star website they are definitely pushing the Chinese government line,just as their predecessors did during the Hungarian revolution in 1956 (which was a genuine workers uprising) and on Poland in the early 1980s (a trade union led mass movement).Principle and truth always take a back seat where Stalinists are concerned.

I do hold out some hope that this may end peacefully,Hong Kong is not Xinjiang where brutal repression can be carried out away from the glare of the international media.I imagine that is the only thing giving Xi pause at the moment.

Tasfasdf · 14-08-2019 10:48am

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Someone mentioned the lack of response from the hard-left in the West - looking at the article about it on the Morning Star website they are definitely pushing the Chinese government line,just as their predecessors did during the Hungarian revolution in 1956 (which was a genuine workers uprising) and on Poland in the early 1980s (a trade union led mass movement).Principle and truth always take a back seat where Stalinists are concerned.

I do hold out some hope that this may end peacefully,Hong Kong is not Xinjiang where brutal repression can be carried out away from the glare of the international media.I imagine that is the only thing giving Xi pause at the moment.

That's because the hard left is made up of communists and socialists.

Yurt2 · 14-08-2019 10:54am

Tasfasdf wrote: »

That's because the hard left is made up of communists and socialists.

I wouldn't be so sure it's exclusively the hard-left defending Beijing. People on the right, and particulary pro-large business economic liberals have had a hard-on for PRC authoritarianism ever since Henry Kissinger shook hands with Zhou Enlai.

Mancomb Seepgood · 14-08-2019 11:00am

Yurt! wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure it's exclusively the hard-left defending Beijing. People on the right, and particulary pro-large business economic liberals have had a hard-on for PRC authoritarianism ever since Henry Kissinger shook hands with Zhou Enlai.

Agreed,many on the left have been supportive of the protests.The issue is with those "tankies" in the traditionally Stalinist groups who defend any government proclaiming itself to be "socialist",regardless of how repressive it is.

Big business would probably like nothing more than business as usual and for a lid to be put on this.

Cheerful Spring2 · 14-08-2019 1:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

By any chance, do you work for the PRC because you are peddling propaganda? The extradition bill has only been shelved.

Express a different opinion, your suddenly some state hired goon pretending to be a real poster.

Hong Kong protestors can demonstrate peacefully and act civilised. All they doing here is tempting fate. China will crack down hard if continues to escalate to violence. By the way no country in the west would tolerate civil unrest and violence. Its only a headline, when its China or Russia. France has had civil unrest for nearly 5 months, and do you see the news broadcasts? Is there posters claiming the France police are bad people? The Yellow Vests are demanding the French President resign.

Gatling · 14-08-2019 1:15pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Express a different opinion, your suddenly some state hired goon pretending to be a real poster.

................ :O

Repeating state propaganda

Elmer Blooker · 14-08-2019 1:40pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Express a different opinion, your suddenly some state hired goon pretending to be a real poster.

Hong Kong protestors can demonstrate peacefully and act civilised. All they doing here is tempting fate. China will crack down hard if continues to escalate to violence. By the way no country in the west would tolerate civil unrest and violence. Its only a headline, when its China or Russia. France has had civil unrest for nearly 5 months, and do you see the news broadcasts? Is there posters claiming the France police are bad people? The Yellow Vests are demanding the French President resign.

Good point.
It should be remembered that the EU and the rest of the world looked the other way when the Guardia Civil heavies attacked peaceful protesters in Catalunya.

Gatling · 14-08-2019 1:51pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Oh look it's another one.

West bad ,
Russia good ,not having a great few weeks protests more regular now explosions at military facilities , nuclear weapons accidents not for the first time either,

jam_mac_jam · 14-08-2019 2:38pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Good point.
It should be remembered that the EU and the rest of the world looked the other way when the Guardia Civil heavies attacked peaceful protesters in Catalunya.

Not quite Tiananmen Square though is it?

jam_mac_jam · 14-08-2019 2:41pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Express a different opinion, your suddenly some state hired goon pretending to be a real poster.

Hong Kong protestors can demonstrate peacefully and act civilised. All they doing here is tempting fate. China will crack down hard if continues to escalate to violence. By the way no country in the west would tolerate civil unrest and violence. Its only a headline, when its China or Russia. France has had civil unrest for nearly 5 months, and do you see the news broadcasts? Is there posters claiming the France police are bad people? The Yellow Vests are demanding the French President resign.

I have seen loads of reports on France, I would question what newspapers you are reading. There is not a single western country that would threaten armored vehicles in retaliation to peaceful protest as China is doing at the moment.

I would suggest you investigate the recent human rights abuses in China before you equate it to France, which is frankly a joke. The reason that Russia and China are singled out more is that they have a very bad record, China much worse of human rights abuses.

Muahahaha · 14-08-2019 3:07pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

All i see is protestors fighting with police officers and smashing cars and property. If they want democracy protest peacefully. The crowds don't look huge to me despite what people are saying on here- 2 million protestors can you show me these pictures please?

Authoritarian dictatorships dont fall because of peaceful protest, this is well documented in history and its naive to believe otherwise.

In any case these protests were peaceful up until the point that the Triads started beating the sh1t out of protestors in the subway station a few weeks ago. The police didnt show up for 45 minutes and Hong Kongers now believe they are in cahoots with agent provocateurs whose goal is to make the protests violent. Once the subway attacks happened all bets were off.

Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

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