Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

nuac

[QUOTE=greencap;111130914]Just for the record, I don't really give a hoot about Taiwan, as far as I can tell they've got a better govt than China.

Or Mao. Or Zhongnanhai. Google my ass.

And yeah, HK will be fully re-integrated. Your idea of 'soon' probably differs from Beijing's quite a bit.

For all you know this could be but the preface for stage 1 of 100, completion scheduled for 2025 or 2035, you know how they do it over there.

Anyway, hope you beat Darwins odds a little longer, and get to see it. Do think of this thread for me.[/QUOTE]

Do you agree therefore that China should let Taiwan develope independently?

Odhinn

greencap wrote: »

Or Westerners who feel they know better than the vast majority of Chinese.

night on the piss i tells ya.

The opinion of "the vast majority of Chinese" are an unknown, as its a one party state. The facts are that these protests have a possibility of the Chinese Government intervening directly, and jaysus help them then.

BlackandGreen

I've been absent from this thread but still have been following the HK issue closely on other platforms.
Just dropping in to post this 3 minute video of HK police incident today where they chased protestors into an MTR station full of civilians and well.

This is a hard watch. NOT SAFE FOR WORK
https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cxz64b/300_uncut_footage_of_the_hk_police_terrorist/

greencap

nuac wrote: »

Do you agree therefore that China should let Taiwan develope independently?

no opinion, dont really care. different topic.

Odhinn wrote: »

The opinion of "the vast majority of Chinese" are an unknown, as its a one party state. The facts are that these protests have a possibility of the Chinese Government intervening directly, and jaysus help them then.

All references to mainland Chinese opinions I've seen have been anti-separatist or anti-protest.

Like in this link, but elsewhere too. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/chinese-military-police-poised-for-action-over-hong-kong-protests-shenzen

Yurt2

greencap wrote: »

no opinion, dont really care. different topic.



All references to mainland Chinese opinions I've seen have been anti-separatist or anti-protest.

Like in this link, but elsewhere too. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/chinese-military-police-poised-for-action-over-hong-kong-protests-shenzen

That's because if you had actual Chinese friends or colleagues from the mainland, you'd know that many actually privately have either reservations about the party, or outright dislike them. As opposed to letting YouTube or the Google search bar doing your 'thinking' for you.

The social, professional and legal concequences of sharing these opinions either online or among peer groups are dangerous in a real way.

For instance, sharing content supportive of the protest in the mainland will at the least get you fired, and probably arrested on trumped up charges of sedition.

So what would you know about 'the vast majority of Chinese' anyway? It's not a free marketplace of opinions there, if you even knew a cursory amount about the place (which you don't).

greencap

Yurt! wrote: »

That's because if you had actual Chinese friends or colleagues from the mainland, you'd know that many actually privately have either reservations about the party, or outright dislike them. As opposed to letting YouTube or the Google search bar doing your 'thinking' for you.

The social, professional and legal concequences of sharing these opinions either online or among peer groups are dangerous in a real way.

For instance, sharing content supportive of the protest in the mainland will at the least get you fired, and probably arrested on trumped up charges of sedition.

So what would you know about 'the vast majority of Chinese' anyway? It's not a free marketplace of opinions there, if you even knew a cursory amount about the place (which you don't).

The opinions came from anonymous individuals in western based media.
If you have better sources, or figures for the Chinese public then please go ahead.

Your post is full of presumption and pretense. There are more people collectively inside and outside of HK who identify HK as part of China than these recent trend protesters.

I don't see any justification why China should just let them isolate and separate a piece of the 'one country' from the rest of China and the Chinese people.

One day you're Chinese and can go to any place throughout your country, the next day you can't go to HK because a tiny minority have decided its theirs now. Fck that.

Yurt2

greencap wrote: »

The opinions came from anonymous individuals in western based media.
If you have better sources, or figures for the Chinese public then please go ahead.

Your post is full of presumption and pretense. There are more people collectively inside and outside of HK who identify HK as part of China than these recent trend protesters.

I don't see any justification why China should just let them isolate and separate a piece of the 'one country' from the rest of China and the Chinese people.

One day you're Chinese and can go to any place throughout your country, the next day you can't go to HK because a tiny minority have decided its theirs now. Fck that.

It's a one party state with limited freedom of association and press you dummy. Of course there is no figures for mainland China.

Pretense and presumption? Your interactions with Chinese culture is limited to ordering a spice-bag at 2am after Weatherspoons.

The percentage numbers of Hong Kongers identifying as Chinese is at an all time low btw, and next to no HK young people identify as Chinese (go use your search bar again).

You're a waste of time, you know next to nothing on this topic, 'Brits out' 'China stronk' blah blah blah.

Someone put up a reading list earlier - go on Amazon and educate yourself instead of Cat in The Hat or whatever has turned your brain to mush.

greencap

Yurt! wrote: »

The percentage numbers of Hong Kongers identifying as Chinese is at an all time low btw, and next to no HK young people identify as Chinese (go use your search bar again).

So because theres only a small pro-Chinese minority within HK these people should simply be 'sidelined' by the majority??

Maybe the people living in the rest of China feel the same way about the protesters.

I see no reason for any kind of separate statehood in these protests. Its an internal Chinese issue.

If the protesters actually could achieve separation it would be with disregard to the minority within who wish to stay as part of China.

As such China has the right to treat the protesters the same way as the protesters would treat the pro-Chinese within HK.

Sorry lads, no private island for you.

(as for wasting time, I think you'll find in the not too distant future that all your piss and vinegar and name calling and snark were just that, a waste of your time, fighting the tide.)

Yurt2

greencap wrote: »

So because theres only a small pro-Chinese minority within HK these people should simply be 'sidelined' by the majority??

Maybe the people living in the rest of China feel the same way about the protesters.

I see no reason for any kind of separate statehood in these protests. Its an internal Chinese issue.

If the protesters actually could achieve separation it would be with disregard to the minority within who wish to stay as part of China.

Sidelined? Chinese people of all stripes could do with the grip of 'the party' being loosened. Universal suffrage will produce the results that the people want, which will inevitably look different to what the party wants, to which is why the independent thought alarms are sounding in Beijing.

The protestors (bar a very small minority of them) and the people in this thread have not been calling for independence. Once again, you have not been paying attention.

The 5 demands do not include formal constitutional independence. Start actually paying heed to the detail of things Greencap.

If there were not immigration restrictions between mainland and HK. Cantonese culture would disappear within half a generation. If you had any appreciation for the nuances of Chinese culture (and I don't think you do) and the ersatz homogeneous culture handed down from on high by cadres in Beijing , you'd know that would be a very very sad thing indeed.

greencap

Yurt! wrote: »

Sidelined? Chinese people of all stripes could do with the grip of 'the party' being loosened. Universal suffrage will produce the results that the people want, which will inevitably look different to what the party wants, to which is why the independent thought alarms are sounding in Beijing.

The protestors (bar a very small minority of them) and the people in this thread have not been calling for independence. Once again, you have not been paying attention.

The 5 demands do not include formal constitutional independence. Start actually paying heed to the detail of things Greencap.

If there were not immigration restrictions between mainland and HK. Cantonese culture would disappear within half a generation. If you had any appreciation for the nuances of Chinese culture (and I don't think you do) and the ersatz homogeneous culture handed down from on high by cadres in Beijing , you'd know that would be a very very sad thing indeed.

Ironic, telling me to pay attention to the detail, while this whole time the only thing I've been commenting on is separation/independence (and the lack of a case for it).

Although good to see you at least concede that some of the protesters are trying to co-opt the democracy issues with independence.

Now rant about the cat in the hat and wetherspoons you complete ...

ILoveYourVibes

greencap wrote: »

Or Westerners who feel they know better than the vast majority of Chinese.

night on the piss i tells ya.

People with a free media know more than people without one.

Chinese who are taught fairytale history and can't access non state media?

Chinese people who are taught in school that the UK has a mild climate and that palm trees grow there and in scotland?

That the English word 'Chinese' pertaining to the language is an insult.

In China everything is censored. Its not even just some things. Its everything. You don't get a version of the truth. They scrap the truth and make something totally new up.

They don't know 30 million people died from famine under Mao.

That is why anyone who leave china and returns is monitored so much.

Yes these people have a totally valid view of the situation based on truthful information. And they are TOTALLY FREE to express their opinions. I mean they would never lie to avoid trouble their friendly govt.

Ask chinese living in the west what they think about it.

snotboogie

Yurt! wrote: »

Sidelined? Chinese people of all stripes could do with the grip of 'the party' being loosened. Universal suffrage will produce the results that the people want, which will inevitably look different to what the party wants, to which is why the independent thought alarms are sounding in Beijing.

The protestors (bar a very small minority of them) and the people in this thread have not been calling for independence. Once again, you have not been paying attention.

The 5 demands do not include formal constitutional independence. Start actually paying heed to the detail of things Greencap.

If there were not immigration restrictions between mainland and HK. Cantonese culture would disappear within half a generation. If you had any appreciation for the nuances of Chinese culture (and I don't think you do) and the ersatz homogeneous culture handed down from on high by cadres in Beijing , you'd know that would be a very very sad thing indeed.

Cantonese culture is alive and well in Guangzhou, while Hong Kong is Cantonese it doesn't have a monopoly on the language or the culture.

Yurt2

snotboogie wrote: »

Cantonese culture is alive and well in Guangzhou, while Hong Kong is Cantonese it doesn't have a monopoly on the language or the culture.

Been there many times, it's now a majority non-Cantonese speaking city with migrant labour. Even native youngsters elect to speak Mandarin. It's basically an old persons' language. The last time I was there the government were making moves to shut down the Cantonese-medium local TV station. Don't know where it went from there.

And in case you don't believe me...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136237/why-has-cantonese-fallen-out-favour-guangzhou-youngsters

Basically, one of the heartlands of Cantonese (Guangzhou) is in terminal decline, and in another generation (if not sooner) will almost certainly be a Mandarin speaking city. The other heartland's future (HK) is very much up in the air.

biko

https://twitter.com/ariahychen/status/1167996538762625027

Yurt2

biko wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ariahychen/status/1167996538762625027

Even the RUC would wince at that carry-on. They're certainty not after hearts and minds. All trust in the police force seems to have evaporated.

biko

Chinese police don't give a ****.
They are just further along the progress towards 1984 than we are.

snotboogie

Yurt! wrote: »

Been there many times, it's now a majority non-Cantonese speaking city with migrant labour. Even native youngsters elect to speak Mandarin. It's basically an old persons' language. The last time I was there the government were making moves to shut down the Cantonese-medium local TV station. Don't know where it went from there.

And in case you don't believe me...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136237/why-has-cantonese-fallen-out-favour-guangzhou-youngsters

Basically, one of the heartlands of Cantonese (Guangzhou) is in terminal decline, and in another generation (if not sooner) will almost certainly be a Mandarin speaking city. The other heartland's future (HK) is very much up in the air.

I was there 6 months ago, 80%+ of what I heard on the street was Cantonese

Yurt2

snotboogie wrote: »

I was there 6 months ago, 80%+ of what I heard on the street was Cantonese

Given that well over half of the population of the city are from elsewhere in China I'd doubt that. Mandarin predominates in the public and professional realm there now.

Do you actually speak a dialect of Chinese to any level? How do you know you weren't hearing Cantonese accented Mandarin (which is more common than Cantonese in the city)?

There are districts of 'old' Guangzhou in the where you hear more Canto than putonghua, but pay attention to who is speaking it, people over 40 for the most part).

Had an ex from GZ so I'm actually very familiar with the town. She was fairly typical of her generation. Parents spoke to her in Canto, she replies in Mandarin. No Canto was allowed in school when she was growing up and she spoke to her peers in Mandarin when there.

To say Cantonese culture is 'alive and well' in GZ (or the mainland) is fairly bogus. It's government policy to overturn it as the lingua franca in Guangdong, and they're having success at it.

ILoveYourVibes

Cantonese culture is alive and well in Guangzhou, while Hong Kong is Cantonese it doesn't have a monopoly on the language or the culture.

I understand. But Hong kong is the one place where its the primary language.

89% of HongKongese speak cantonese at home daily.

There are over 68 million native cantonese speakers. Its not going to die etc. That would be impossible.

But the cantonese film industry is in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is where cantonese is used in administration and broadcasting.

You get speakers in Guangzhou but the schools etc admin broadcasting is in Standard mandarin.

I was there 6 months ago, 80%+ of what I heard on the street was Cantonese

On the street yes. But the Chinese govt won't say that. They will say everyone speaks mandarin. And they will broadcast that message in mandarin all over china.

ILoveYourVibes

It is stating what has been the obvious for about three months now.

Denise Ho: Hong Kong has reached 'a point of no turning back'

Cantopop star says city has become a police state as young people fight for their lives

There is no turning back now. They won't back down.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/02/denise-ho-hong-kong-has-reached-a-point-of-no-turning-back

ILoveYourVibes

Hong Kong police are just storming the streets beating random people now. Foreigners and Hong Kongers.

Yurt2

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

On the street yes. But the Chinese govt won't say that. They will say everyone speaks mandarin. And they will broadcast that message in mandarin all over china.

Except that it's not the case. Anyone who says that 80 percent of observed conversations in GZ were in Cantonese either...

a. Can't tell the difference between Cantonese and Putonghua

or...

b. Has never been there.

It's ok not being able to tell the difference. Most people can't unless they've studied Chinese or have spent a significant amount of time in China. But telling porkies about having been to a city to try to win an argument is silly.

Canto native speakers probably don't even make up 50 percent of the city's population at this stage, and even among the 'old GZ' populace, the language is in inter-generational decline. So it's simply not true that 80 percent of daily interactions in what is now a Mandarin majority city could be in Cantonese; a city where the language of media, business and education is putonghua.

Yurt2

Double post

ILoveYourVibes

Yurt! wrote: »

Except that it's not the case. Anyone who says that 80 percent of observed conversations in GZ were in Cantonese either...

a. Can't tell the difference between Cantonese and Putonghua

or...

b. Has never been there.

It's ok not being able to tell the difference. Most people can't unless they've studied Chinese or have spent a significant amount of time in China. But telling porkies about having been to a city to try to win an argument is silly.

Canto native speakers probably don't even make up 50 percent of the city's population at this stage, and even among the 'old GZ' populace, the language is in inter-generational decline. So it's simply not true that 80 percent of daily interactions in what is now a Mandarin majority city could be in Cantonese; a city where the language of media, business and education is putonghua.

It doesn't really matter its not got anything to do with this.

creeper1

I have a limited amount of experience in Hong Kong and when I was there Cantonese was definitely more widely spoken. In Macao there are a lot of workers from mainland China and they speak Putonghua.

They seem quite comfortable in English and I notice Carrie Lam squirming when not answering a question roared at her in English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbHXwjCLnBc

dwayneshintzy

creeper1 wrote: »

I have a limited amount of experience in Hong Kong and when I was there Cantonese was definitely more widely spoken. In Macao there are a lot of workers from mainland China and they speak Putonghua.

They seem quite comfortable in English and I notice Carrie Lam squirming when not answering a question roared at her in English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbHXwjCLnBc

It is, it's the first language of the people, government, schools, etc.


Yurt! is saying that it's not the main daily language in Guangzhou, and I'd agree with him (based on my own experience).

snotboogie

Yurt! wrote: »

Except that it's not the case. Anyone who says that 80 percent of observed conversations in GZ were in Cantonese either...

a. Can't tell the difference between Cantonese and Putonghua

or...

b. Has never been there.

It's ok not being able to tell the difference. Most people can't unless they've studied Chinese or have spent a significant amount of time in China. But telling porkies about having been to a city to try to win an argument is silly.

Canto native speakers probably don't even make up 50 percent of the city's population at this stage, and even among the 'old GZ' populace, the language is in inter-generational decline. So it's simply not true that 80 percent of daily interactions in what is now a Mandarin majority city could be in Cantonese; a city where the language of media, business and education is putonghua.

I speak conversational Mandarin and can easily recognize it being spoken. I spent a year in Shenzhen where Mandarin is the Lingua Franca, huge difference one hour up the road in Guangzhou. Even in Shenzhen, you still have Cantonese on all public transportation and massive a Cantonese media presence, on that topic the Guangdong media is still primarily in Cantonese, I have no idea why you are saying it isn't; GZBN is about 90% Cantonese, GRT is about 70% and closed three of it's Mandarin Channels in the last few years.

clever user name

I would say Cantonese is definitely not the daily language in Guangzhou anymore, I'm actually there right now. You'll hear some locals speaking it to each other, but go anywhere commercial and you'll only hear mandarin. As someone has pointed out, most of the people I have met here aren't actually from Guangzhou. Though in saying that, I've only been here a month and will only be here another month so I certainly haven't been to all corners of the city.

Anyway, I'm planning on going to Hong kong on the 13th, hopefully the s**t doesn't completely hit the fan before then.

Muahahaha

How important is this 70th anniversary of the CCP taking power? It sounds like it could be a perfect storm with military parades in the mainland and a simultaneous uprising in HK

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

A pretty big deal. The communists will be pissed if someone ruins their parade.