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Fierce whingeing
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I see I've wandered into the men's suffrage thread. Discrimination against men is generally based on outdated views of women, some of which are espoused here. People saying women are better at housework and minding kids then complaining about courts siding with women when it comes to divorce and custody. Complaining about men being in physical jobs with high risk while also talking about the difference between the sexes. Can't have it both ways.
I'd be delighted with a men's suffrage thread (well, a men's issues, concerns, rights thread) but unfortunately they all turn into bitching about women. Talking about having it both ways, they want to whinge and bitch and moan about how successful the women's rights movement has been over the last 100 years but also balk at the idea of actually doing anything to promote and address men's issues.
The classic example is when the big brave boys take exception to how International Women's Day has made it into the public consciousness. They whinge, "where's International Men's Day?". Then when IMD comes around in November, they say "meh" and wait for women's day to roll around so they can complain that women's day is bigger than men's day.
Whinging, bitching and moaning. But always ridicule the notion of actually doing something to address the problems. I'm riding it out until some other men actually support promoting men's issues without it turning into primarily a bitching session about women.0 -
What is it with men and their sudden fragility and fearing they’re threatened by women(or gays or Muslims etc etc)
If you’re secure in yourself, your masculinity shouldn’t feel threatened at all.
Is it women should just know their place and get back in the kitchen?
Can’t figure it out at all.
Snowflake generation indeed.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I'd be delighted with a men's suffrage thread (well, a men's issues, concerns, rights thread) but unfortunately they all turn into bitching about women. Talking about having it both ways, they want to whinge and bitch and moan about how successful the women's rights movement has been over the last 100 years but also balk at the idea of actually doing anything to promote and address men's issues.
The classic example is when the big brave boys take exception to how International Women's Day has made it into the public consciousness. They whinge, "where's International Men's Day?". Then when IMD comes around in November, they say "meh" and wait for women's day to roll around so they can complain that women's day is bigger than men's day.
Whinging, bitching and moaning. But always ridicule the notion of actually doing something to address the problems. I'm riding it out until some other men actually support promoting men's issues without it turning into primarily a bitching session about women.
I reckon a vast majority of women would be open to supporting (real) men’s issues as well, unlike the other way around.0 -
I see I've wandered into the men's suffrage thread. Discrimination against men is generally based on outdated views of women, some of which are espoused here. People saying women are better at housework and minding kids then complaining about courts siding with women when it comes to divorce and custody. Complaining about men being in physical jobs with high risk while also talking about the difference between the sexes. Can't have it both ways.
That's a completely separate issue.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about.
The child maintenance will still be sought though.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I'd be delighted with a men's suffrage thread (well, a men's issues, concerns, rights thread) but unfortunately they all turn into bitching about women. Talking about having it both ways, they want to whinge and bitch and moan about how successful the women's rights movement has been over the last 100 years but also balk at the idea of actually doing anything to promote and address men's issues.
The classic example is when the big brave boys take exception to how International Women's Day has made it into the public consciousness. They whinge, "where's International Men's Day?". Then when IMD comes around in November, they say "meh" and wait for women's day to roll around so they can complain that women's day is bigger than men's day.
Whinging, bitching and moaning. But always ridicule the notion of actually doing something to address the problems. I'm riding it out until some other men actually support promoting men's issues without it turning into primarily a bitching session about women.
Start one so. Itl he a success0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »By at least demonstrating that you lived with the child as the law says (according to the poster a few posts ago).
You could also demonstrate you're the father by biological tests.
Why would seeing the child help demonstrate to anyone that you're the father?
the point is that you have to go about proving your the father to get your rights. they should be automatic
as for living with the child. how would that work in a one night stand situation or where the relationship broke down or where the mother is a bit nuts and decides not to let you near your child0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »What is it with men and their sudden fragility and fearing they’re threatened by women(or gays or Muslims etc etc)
If you’re secure in yourself, your masculinity shouldn’t feel threatened at all.
Is it women should just know their place and get back in the kitchen?
Can’t figure it out at all.
Snowflake generation indeed.
You have misinterpreted it. It's not a fear of the above.
Gather the men one one side. The women , gays and Muslims on the other.
Draw up a list of events and competitions.
Men will win them all. Back to back all weight reigning champions since day 1.
(The Muslims and gays may not play well together)0 -
I reckon a vast majority of women would be open to supporting (real) men’s issues as well, unlike the other way around.
most men wouldnt have a problem supporting women on REAL issues. there are a few areas left that women can balance out a bit but nowhere near the levels reported.
most of us that hate the modern femanist movement take issue with the making up of non issues and the blatant lies and man hating0 -
You have misinterpreted it. It's not a fear of the above.
Gather the men one one side. The women , gays and Muslims on the other.
Draw up a list of events and competitions.
Men will win them all. Back to back all weight reigning champions since day 1.
(The Muslims and gays may not play well together)
We are talking about different things.
I’m wondering about certain men, a cohort of which are complaining about women and feminism etc.
You’re correct in your point men are just better at certain things. Physically.
Mentally though there’s a huge swathe now threatened by women.(and gays and Muslims) As evidenced by countless threads on this very forum.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I'd be delighted with a men's suffrage thread (well, a men's issues, concerns, rights thread) but unfortunately they all turn into bitching about women. Talking about having it both ways, they want to whinge and bitch and moan about how successful the women's rights movement has been over the last 100 years but also balk at the idea of actually doing anything to promote and address men's issues.
The classic example is when the big brave boys take exception to how International Women's Day has made it into the public consciousness. They whinge, "where's International Men's Day?". Then when IMD comes around in November, they say "meh" and wait for women's day to roll around so they can complain that women's day is bigger than men's day.
Whinging, bitching and moaning. But always ridicule the notion of actually doing something to address the problems. I'm riding it out until some other men actually support promoting men's issues without it turning into primarily a bitching session about women.
i have been toying with the idea for a thread for a while myself. but fear it would go the way of most others. i was thinking something along the lines of the bad parking thread or cool pics thread with a no chat rule but have a rule tht your claim must the backed up with facts
have a similar one for womens issues . i would like to see that list withut all the usuall crap pile on top.
as for the womans day v mens day.
womens day is now a 4-5 day event where all kind of fake stories and seudo science twist everything into men hating and twist one of stories into wholescale womens issues.
at the same time mens day is barely mentioned and only suicide or cancer stories are in the media.
i have mentioned in on the day and got shot down with a wave of femanist crap
all we want is balance.0 -
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Stop moaning ffs wrote: »We are talking about different things.
I’m wondering about certain men, a cohort of which are complaining about women and feminism etc.
You’re correct in your point men are just better at certain things. Physically.
Mentally though there’s a huge swathe now threatened by women.(and gays and Muslims) As evidenced by countless threads on this very forum.
most would not feel threatened by indevidual women .
men are under threat from the wider society ,media , SJW Types and radical femanists.
society is moving away from inocent until proven guilty to tial by racidal lunatics.
look at the belfast rape trial
look at johny depp and amber heard.
one acusation and a mans life is ruined.0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »We are talking about different things.
I’m wondering about certain men, a cohort of which are complaining about women and feminism etc.
You’re correct in your point men are just better at certain things. Physically.
Mentally though there’s a huge swathe now threatened by women.(and gays and Muslims) As evidenced by countless threads on this very forum.
Because men are the reigning champions and some might be feeling like that position is becoming threatened. But a few small victories here and there won't change that.
Men still run the place and always will. No doubt about it0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »most would not feel threatened by indevidual women .
men are under threat from the wider society ,media , SJW Types and radical femanists.
society is moving away from inocent until proven guilty to tial by racidal lunatics.
look at the belfast rape trial
look at johny depp and amber heard.
one acusation and a mans life is ruined.
All true.
But men generally have behaved appallingly all through history and continue to do so.
If Harvey Weinstein rapes loads of women and the whole me too movement thing, I as a man don’t feel threatened or under attack. Simply cos it wasn’t me and I wouldn’t do that.
There’s very good and legitimate reasons for the rise of all the movements and ideas you mentioned.
Certain men behave appallingly and make us all look bad.
That doesn’t men all men are being ‘attacked’.
Ps I don’t understand the term SJW as a pejorative. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a fair equal inclusive society. And fighting to bring that about. Those who use that term as a pejorative seem to want the kind of society we see in the Islamic world, those Muslims they’re so terrified of, where men rule and all else obey and they fail completely to see the laughable irony of that0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »All true.
But men generally have behaved appallingly all through history and continue to do so.
If Harvey Weinstein rapes loads of women and the whole me too movement thing, I as a man don’t feel threatened or under attack. Simply cos it wasn’t me and I wouldn’t do that.
There’s very good and legitimate reasons for the rise of all the movements and ideas you mentioned.
Certain men behave appallingly and make us all look bad.
That doesn’t men all men are being ‘attacked’.
Ps I don’t understand the term SJW as a pejorative. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a fair equal inclusive society. Those who use that term as a pejorative seem to want the kind of society we see in the Islamic world, those Muslims they’re so terrified of, where men rule and all else obey and they fail completely to see the laughable irony of that
A lot of the issue with Muslims is why are we accomodating them and their beliefs?
If as a society we are becoming more progressive then why accept a group who do not treat women and gays as equals?
What do people want? One one hand some complain about men (white men) and their behaviour to women but on the other hand want to bend over backwards to accommodate a religion who don't treat women and gays equally.
Makes no sense0 -
Church on Tuesday wrote: »That's a completely separate issue.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about.
The child maintenance will still be sought though.
It's not a different issue. Our legal system has developed around or societal beliefs and norms. Because of this it has evolved around women being the caregivers and home-makers and men being the earners. It also treats women as the damsel in other areas. Where do you think this norm comes from?0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »All true.
But men generally have behaved appallingly all through history and continue to do so.
If Harvey Weinstein rapes loads of women and the whole me too movement thing, I as a man don’t feel threatened or under attack. Simply cos it wasn’t me and I wouldn’t do that.
There’s very good and legitimate reasons for the rise of all the movements and ideas you mentioned.
Certain men behave appallingly and make us all look bad.
That doesn’t men all men are being ‘attacked’.
Ps I don’t understand the term SJW as a pejorative. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a fair equal inclusive society. Those who use that term as a pejorative seem to want the kind of society we see in the Islamic world, those Muslims they’re so terrified of, where men rule and all else obey and they fail completely to see the laughable irony of that
down through the years yes. on mass women were treated shockingly poor. raped,assaulted, controled, forced to get married etc
now not so much (at least in western society). nw its more one off cases rather than the norm.
some great femanists through history have the be given credit for that.
the problem i have is that if a woman does something horrible its a one off and only her fault, if a man does the same all men are to blame
media saying things like ;we need to teach men not to rape etc.
historicalt a SJW would have been a good thing , fighting for basic rights
SJW mightnt be the right term for what i meant. more perpetually offended might be better0 -
A lot of the issue with Muslims is why are we accomodating them and their beliefs?
If as a society we are becoming more progressive then why accept a group who do not treat women and gays as equals?
What do people want? One one hand some complain about men (white men) and their behaviour to women but on the other hand want to bend over backwards to accommodate a religion who don't treat women and gays equally.
Makes no sense
Here in Ireland specifically, you don’t and will never see anyone of that faith trying to campaign against or get into a position where they suddenly start preaching against women and gays etc. It just wouldn’t wash here and they wouldn’t try anyways. Whereas our own church has done it since the foundation of the state. Most Muslims here are here necosse they wanted to escape that hardline sharia nonsense in their country of origin.(anecdotal but true from the good fewxi inow personally)
So it’s stupid and hypocritical of us to fear any Muslims doing it here. That’s a different topic though.
I dont see us bending over backwards as you say to accommodate them. It’s a relatively tiny community of that faith and they’ve integrated and aren’t protesting about anything or trying to impose any of their beliefs on anyone.
Certain elements of the catholic regime here can’t say the same. Not to mention the bloody Scientologists.
All through the 70s and 80s you’d see hare Krishna’s on Grafton st very innocently and openly trying to get people involved in their faith. Harmlessly.
And we were all fine with it.
You don’t see that now. But if anyone of the Muslim faith or evangelical Christian faith tried the same, it just wouldn’t wash.
Irish people and as a society have been burned badly once and won’t fall for it again. Or the far right fear mongering and othering you are trying to gain traction on forums like these.0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »down through the years yes. on mass women were treated shockingly poor. raped,assaulted, controled, forced to get married etc
now not so much (at least in western society). nw its more one off cases rather than the norm.
some great femanists through history have the be given credit for that.
the problem i have is that if a woman does something horrible its a one off and only her fault, if a man does the same all men are to blame
media saying things like ;we need to teach men not to rape etc.
historicalt a SJW would have been a good thing , fighting for basic rights
SJW mightnt be the right term for what i meant. more perpetually offended might be better
Men or certain factions of men now seem to be the ones perpetually agrieved though. As I said, thinking they are being attacked for the fact that some other guy they’ve never met is being held to account. Paddy Jackson for instance.0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »Here in Ireland specifically, you don’t and will never see anyone of that faith trying to campaign against or get into a position where they suddenly start preaching against women and gays etc. It just wouldn’t wash here and they wouldn’t try anyways. Whereas our own church has done it since the foundation of the state. Most Muslims here are here necosse they wanted to escape that hardline sharia nonsense in their country of origin.(anecdotal but true from the good fewxi inow personally)
So it’s stupid and hypocritical of us to fear any Muslims doing it here. That’s a different topic though.
I dont see us bending over backwards as you say to accommodate them. It’s a relatively tiny community of that faith and they’ve integrated and aren’t protesting about anything or trying to impose any of their beliefs on anyone.
Certain elements of the catholic regime here can’t say the same. Not to mention the bloody Scientologists.
All through the 70s and 80s you’d see hare Krishna’s on Grafton st very innocently and openly trying to get people involved in their faith. Harmlessly.
And we were all fine with it.
You don’t see that now. But if anyone of the Muslim faith or evangelical Christian faith tried the same, it just wouldn’t wash.
Irish people and as a society have been burned badly once and won’t fall for it again. Or the far right fear mongering and othering you are trying to gain traction on forums like these.
Yes it's a small population at present. But it grows year on year as a percentage of total population. We will end up no different than England. We will end up with towns with a Muslim majority given enough time. Some people will say who cares. I would say who asked the Irish people as a whole if this is what they wanted. This goes for immigration as a whole.
How many is too many and why can we not have an opinion on this.
But that's neither here nor there at the minute and a bit of a deviation from this thread. But the conversation is definitely one sided at the moment0 -
I reckon a vast majority of women would be open to supporting (real) men’s issues as well, unlike the other way around.
Agree. The total dismissal of women's concerns coupled with Whinging about how some people dismiss men's issues. No willingness to listen to other's concerns.
This came up on men's day in November. Out in the pub after work. Someone mentioned men's day and one of the women said "shur isn't every day men's day?" There were a couple of lads who were ready to hit some of the main points like male suicide rates and mental health problems, father's rights and boys falling behind girls in education. It was all good humoured but the woman was actually a bit disappointed with herself that she had dismissed such serious issues as trivial. Now she knows.
That's all it takes. Being willing to raise the issues that matter to men without the main point being to bitch about women.0 -
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Stop moaning ffs wrote: »Men or certain factions of men now seem to be the ones perpetually agrieved though. As I said, thinking they are being attacked for the fact that some other guy they’ve never met is being held to account. Paddy Jackson for instance.
slight diferences though.
people like myself are talking about issues raise by others . its usually very reactionary and pointing out the lies or basic untruths of the story. people like myself dont go around making up crap and putting it in newspapers or on tv.
i would have no problem with anyone saying paddy jackson is a bit of a scumbag. he cannot hold his head up high and feel good about the situation.
but you cannot call him a rapist or simialr like the media did .0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »the point is that you have to go about proving your the father to get your rights. they should be automatic
as for living with the child. how would that work in a one night stand situation or where the relationship broke down or where the mother is a bit nuts and decides not to let you near your child
The rights should be automatic, without proving you're the father? Think about that's for a second. Any man could claim to be any child's father and have automatic rights to the child?
Think about it for a second. Of course you need to prove you're the father before you get the rights of a father.0 -
Yes it's a small population at present. But it grows year on year as a percentage of total population. We will end up no different than England. We will end up with towns with a Muslim majority given enough time. Some people will say who cares. I would say who asked the Irish people as a whole if this is what they wanted. This goes for immigration as a whole.
How many is too many and why can we not have an opinion on this
We’ve had a good conversation and you’ve made some interesting points but you seem to think ‘theyre Coming here to take over’ when in fact they’re not and you have no evidence to suggest or prove they are.
I haaaaaate what I’m about to say but it’s true. Millions of Irish people have infested(haha) every country in the world the past two centuries. We didn’t go to ‘take over and impose our Catholic dogma’ on anyone. Neither are these. In exactly the same way we got outa here to escape our culture being torn down and to escape hunger and oppression we escaped, this is exactly what they’re doing.
It’s fompletely hypocritical and utterly unirish of us to close the door on people currently suffering the same exact and worse conditions we did.
Ireland and Irish survived genocide war civil war famine the evil of the church and endless economic hardship. We thrived in fact despite these things.
We’ll survive immigrants no matter what faith or nationality coming here for a better life.
In fact it’s our duty given our history to make sure they can always come here and do what we can to make it happen for them.0 -
A lot of the issue with Muslims is why are we accomodating them and their beliefs?
If as a society we are becoming more progressive then why accept a group who do not treat women and gays as equals?
What do people want? One one hand some complain about men (white men) and their behaviour to women but on the other hand want to bend over backwards to accommodate a religion who don't treat women and gays equally.
Makes no sense
They think their generosity will gain sunshine lollipops and rainbow's, and the hardliners will melt and turn turn a new leaf...
I have friends who are Muslims and very moderate they say their 5 prayers a day.
Worship their God, but they read the part of the Koran which says when in Christian lands respect their culture and law's.
The Sharia law is Sharia law in the Islamic countries, it's their law and it's up to them.
But when they step out of it Muhammad suggested that they abide by Christian principles while in Christian lands.
But the people who are advocates for bringing in Muslims should explain to the hardliners we live in a different society, it's ok to pray,eat halal, have your place of worship.
But stick with our law's and morals, no beheading s or stoning down the local GAA field or crucifixion near the crossroads, treat your women properly too.
Actually I think the veil looks quite nice on women,not the postbox one but the face exposed is quite compatible.
Muslims are as ok I never had any problems with them, they're quite gentle and a true follower of Islam will abide by Muhammad's teachings while living or traveling through secular and Christian lands.
You have to do a lot of reading up on Islam to understand it...
A lot of people are ignorant of it.
A true Muslim would respect the teaching in the Book, a non Muslim wouldn't... according to the teachings anyhow...0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »The rights should be automatic, without proving you're the father? Think about that's for a second. Any man could claim to be any child's father and have automatic rights to the child?
Think about it for a second. Of course you need to prove you're the father before you get the rights of a father.
i would agree with that but how often would that happen. i would imagine more fathers would want out of the situation rather than men wanting to be the father to someone else child.
surely some comon ground could be met where if both parent say he is the father then it is taken as fact. if the woman refuses to answer or lies then he should have some mecanism to force a dna test realy fast and she should be charged with denying him his rights some way (assuming he is the father)0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »We’ve had a good conversation and you’ve made some interesting points but you seem to think ‘theyre Coming here to take over’ when in fact they’re not and you have no evidence to suggest or prove they are.
I haaaaaate what I’m about to say but it’s true. Millions of Irish people have infested(haha) every country in the world the past two centuries. We didn’t go to ‘take over and impose our Catholic dogma’ on anyone. Neither are these. In exactly the same way we got outa here to escape our culture being torn down and to escape hunger and oppression we escaped, this is exactly what they’re doing.
It’s fompletely hypocritical and utterly unirish of us to close the door on people currently suffering the same exact and worse conditions we did.
Ireland and Irish survived genocide war civil war famine the evil of the church and endless economic hardship. We thrived in fact despite these things.
We’ll survive immigrants no matter what faith or nationality coming here for a better life.
In fact it’s our duty given our history to make sure they can always come here and do what we can to make it happen for them.
its funny the think that we are that close to other cultures coming in given how so much of our ansesters emegrated and how many of our current generations are working all over the world.
i have cousins in canada, australia, middle east, africa,
and ancesters there to.
no one is outraged at the estimated 70 million irish living around the world
i do think we should have system like australia to keep criminals, and wasters out but allow in any good normal people0 -
It's not a different issue. Our legal system has developed around or societal beliefs and norms. Because of this it has evolved around women being the caregivers and home-makers and men being the earners. It also treats women as the damsel in other areas. Where do you think this norm comes from?
You do realise this is the 21st Century right?
The norm comes from the traditional nuclear family set up that both sexes back in the day were happy enough to fulfill.
Times change and there are plenty of men who are single parents or stay at home dads; whichever suits the set up, circumstances and income levels of that particular household.
A bit has been done about it but not nearly enough; it's completely wrong that a paternal father has no automatic rights to his child full stop.0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »We’ve had a good conversation and you’ve made some interesting points but you seem to think ‘theyre Coming here to take over’ when in fact they’re not and you have no evidence to suggest or prove they are.
I haaaaaate what I’m about to say but it’s true. Millions of Irish people have infested(haha) every country in the world the past two centuries. We didn’t go to ‘take over and impose our Catholic dogma’ on anyone. Neither are these. In exactly the same way we got outa here to escape our culture being torn down and to escape hunger and oppression we escaped, this is exactly what they’re doing.
It’s fompletely hypocritical and utterly unirish of us to close the door on people currently suffering the same exact and worse conditions we did.
Ireland and Irish survived genocide war civil war famine the evil of the church and endless economic hardship. We thrived in fact despite these things.
We’ll survive immigrants no matter what faith or nationality coming here for a better life.
In fact it’s our duty given our history to make sure they can always come here and do what we can to make it happen for them.
We are a small population in a small country. Australia is the size of Europe and Texas itself is ten times the size of Ireland. We can't open up and let anyone and everyone who decides to come here in because some of our citizens went to Australia or America.
How many Irish went to Nigeria or Pakistan for a better life. I get what you are saying but that argument makes no sense.
Nothing wrong with sensible immigration and quotas to fill shortages.0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »its funny the think that we are that close to other cultures coming in given how so much of our ansesters emegrated and how many of our current generations are working all over the world.
i have cousins in canada, australia, middle east, africa,
and ancesters there to.
no one is outraged at the estimated 70 million irish living around the world
i do think we should have system like australia to keep criminals, and wasters out but allow in any good normal people
Australia seems to have a good and rigourous way of doing that. And it’s blind to colour or faith. Many Irish annually turned away when they arrive and sent home. Then you look at America trying to the same but it’s hyperbolic hateful othering.
We don’t have huge crime waves Muslims or Africans running gangs etc.
We just don’t.
So this fearful nonsense and rampant othering is pointless in my view.0 -
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Hedgelayer wrote: »They think their generosity will gain sunshine lollipops and rainbow's, and the hardliners will melt and turn turn a new leaf...
I have friends who are Muslims and very moderate they say their 5 prayers a day.
Worship their God, but they read the part of the Koran which says when in Christian lands respect their culture and law's.
The Sharia law is Sharia law in the Islamic countries, it's their law and it's up to them.
But when they step out of it Muhammad suggested that they abide by Christian principles while in Christian lands.
But the people who are advocates for bringing in Muslims should explain to the hardliners we live in a different society, it's ok to pray,eat halal, have your place of worship.
But stick with our law's and morals, no beheading s or stoning down the local GAA field or crucifixion near the crossroads, treat your women properly too.
Actually I think the veil looks quite nice on women,not the postbox one but the face exposed is quite compatible.
Muslims are as ok I never had any problems with them, they're quite gentle and a true follower of Islam will abide by Muhammad's teachings while living or traveling through secular and Christian lands.
You have to do a lot of reading up on Islam to understand it...
A lot of people are ignorant of it.
A true Muslim would respect the teaching in the Book, a non Muslim wouldn't... according to the teachings anyhow...
How many should be allowed into the country?
100,000 or 10 million? Somewhere in between perhaps. This is for all immigrants not just Muslims in particular.
Nobody mentions numbers0
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