Irish language revival

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

We're saying the same thing?



Genuine question. Are you bilingual to a day to day conversational level? (no, this isn't a trick question to catch you out with.)


Did I ever say anyone was or that was the reason?

1 - not if you think the curriculum is well designed (although in fairness, I'm not sure if that' what you were saying)
2 - not with Irish. Never was. Am with German, but then I live in Berlin so it's not really a fair answer
3 - my point being: it's either the syallbus/teaching, or it's the student. And it's not the student.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 - not if you think the curriculum is well designed (although in fairness, I'm not sure if that' what you were saying)
2 - not with Irish. Never was. Am with German, but then I live in Berlin so it's not really a fair answer
3 - my point being: it's either the syallbus/teaching, or it's the student. And it's not the student.

I think the curriculum is design to treat Irish as a subject just like the other subjects. I think teachers teach it to the best of thier ability but I do not think it's designed to create a nation of fluent Irish speakers. I guess teachers get a lot of the wrap for "it's taught badly, so I'm more defending them than anything. My Irish teacher was truely passionate for the language and I really regret that I hated Irish as much as most of the posters here do back then. I think if I had the same love then as now I'd have learnt some amazing Irish.

No, it's awesome your fluent in German, it makes the conversation easier as you'll have background and understanding to where I'm coming from with I truely don't believe a few hours here and there of Irish as a subject (i.e the current curriculum) is the way to produce fleunt speakers. Immersion tracks are in my opinion one of the best ways.

How long did it take to become fluent and in what context (via education or immersion or both?)

Ubbquittious

The Irish course on duolingo probably has done a lot more for reviving Irish than a the millions our overlords are spending on it. I find it is working a treat for me personally anyway but twill another while before I can have a conversation in Irish id say

Reati

blanch152 wrote: »

Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that Gaelscoileanna operate racist enrolment policies.

Good, because they simply don't.

blanch152 wrote: »

I am questioning the motivation of some parents that send their children to Gaelscoileanna.

Some people do it because Gaelscoil statistically have smaller classes and score higher in national testing. Some do it for the love of the Irish language. Some do it because they have big GAA heads on them. Some do it because they live next door to it. I'm sure there is lots of differnet motivations just like every parent has for picking the schools they pick.

This is some great gatekeeping on the Gaelscoileanna though folks. I'm glad to see you so concerned about the reasons parents have for sending thier own kids to the school of thier choice.

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem is the statistics show that Gaelscoileanna do not enrol non-nationals, travellers or pupils with special needs in anything like the numbers that mainstream English schools do. And rather than address the statistics, you attack the posters that point out the statistics. To be fair though, you are not the worst at it.

You posted this before and I addressed both aspects as best as possible.

1. Without the numbers for people who apply you can't actually draw any conclusion bar there is less of those categories of students. One basic thing you learn in statistics is correlation is not always equal to causation. You simply do not have the full data set to claim they do not enroll certain segments.

2. I gave you a pretty likely answer. I'd say the majority of parents of foreign kids, who don't speak English as a home language would want their kids to be educated through the primarily used language. Let's not forget this is one way how Irish went into decline in the 1800's. Families sent kids to be educated through English as in those days it offered more financial chances to a better live like moving to America. Its hardly a leap to think the same would apply here.

Reati

Ubbquittious wrote: »

The Irish course on duolingo probably has done a lot more for reviving Irish than a the millions our overlords are spending on it. I find it is working a treat for me personally anyway but twill another while before I can have a conversation in Irish id say

Duolingo is great! You'll be there before long and will have no end of ways to talk about portán! That ulchabhán loves him some portán!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

I think the curriculum is design to treat Irish as a subject just like the other subjects. I think teachers teach it to the best of thier ability but I do not think it's designed to create a nation of fluent Irish speakers. I guess teachers get a lot of the wrap for "it's taught badly, so I'm more defending them than anything. My Irish teacher was truely passionate for the language and I really regret that I hated Irish as much as most of the posters here do back then. I think if I had the same love then as now I'd have learnt some amazing Irish.

No, it's awesome your fluent in German, it makes the conversation easier as you'll have background and understanding to where I'm coming from with I truely don't believe a few hours here and there of Irish as a subject (i.e the current curriculum) is the way to produce fleunt speakers. Immersion tracks are in my opinion one of the best ways.

How long did it take to become fluent and in what context (via education or immersion or both?)

Fair enough on most points, but just to clarify: I said the time spent in school should be enough to get people conversationally sound - not necessarily fluent. Fluency, I agree, would take immersion, but I think most people would happily accept a nation of people who can speak the language reasonably well and hold conversations in it.

Wanting everyone to be fluent is a bit selfish.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough on most points, but just to clarify: I said the time spent in school should be enough to get people conversationally sound - not necessarily fluent. Fluency, I agree, would take immersion, but I think most people would happily accept a nation of people who can speak the language reasonably well and hold conversations in it.

Wanting everyone to be fluent is a bit selfish.

It's semantics but I use fluency in the terms of the scale of fluency. It's more of an American terminology thing but its easier to type on a phone that getting to a conversational level of language proficiency!

But let's go down that old lane for a stroll. Fluency is defined as “being able to speak easily in a given language". How do you see conversationly sound vs fluent?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

It's semantics but I use fluency in the terms of the scale of fluency. It's more of an American terminology thing but its easier to type on a phone that getting to a conversational level of language proficiency!

But let's go down that old lane for a stroll. Fluency is defined as “being able to speak easily in a given language". How do you see conversationly sound vs fluent?

Strength of the conversation.

I'm can hold conversations in German about most things, but I'm not fluent. By that, I mean that I make a lot (and I do mean a lot) of grammatical mistakes, but people know what I'm talking about. I also need help translating business and official documents.

Edgware

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Strength of the conversation.

I'm can hold conversations in German about most things, but I'm not fluent. By that, I mean that I make a lot (and I do mean a lot) of grammatical mistakes, but people know what I'm talking about. I also need help translating business and official documents.

Vot is your name?

feargale

Quote: janfebmar
"It's an ugly dead language and a waste if taxpayers money."

That kind of comment adds nothing constructive to the discussion.
Firstly you need to learn to distinguish between fact and subjective perception. What is ugly to you is not necessarily so to others.
Secondly you need to educate yourself on the universally accepted definition of language death, which is easily googled. Irish is an endangered language, not a dead one. You need to stick to the facts. And being uninterested in the language doesn't exempt one from the basic requirements of good manners and showing the minimum of respect that one might show to any community. There have been some references here to racist attitudes. Remember that there is a community along the west coast whose mother tongue this is, many of whom are left to wonder if they will be the last in their place to speak it. They don't need ill-informed jibes on top of that.
Your post underlines what another poster (I-love-your-vibes) said here earlier, that these discussions simply bring out the extremists on both sides. Talking of ugliness, they also seem to bring that out in alot of people.
These are pointless threads. Irish language enthusiasts would be better off communicating with each other in the Gaeilge forum. As for trying to evangelise among the unconverted you may as well try to start a decade of the rosary in a brothel.

janfebmar

feargale wrote: »

. Irish language enthusiasts would be better off communicating with each other in the Gaeilge forum. As for trying to evangelise among the unconverted you may as well try to start a decade of the rosary in a brothel.

Correct. The fact the Gaeilge forum / thread only gets a few posts a month show how few people actually use Irish. Maybe in needs a 100% gaeltacht grant or something.

ohnonotgmail

feargale wrote: »

Quote: janfebmar
"It's an ugly dead language and a waste if taxpayers money."

That kind of comment adds nothing constructive to the discussion.

To be fair you could have said that about any of their posts in this thread.

Hamsterchops

Irish revival = groundhog day!

Every other year since the foundation of the state there has been talk of an Irish language revival, and yet nothing ever happens (in any substantial way), and I would expect this to continue. give it another three or four or ten years and there will be "talk" of yet another Irish language revival.

The reality is that sadly we left Irish behind us a long long time ago, long before this state was formed. speaking Irish as our 1st language is from our past, but it's not our future . . . . . .

Reati

Sardonicat wrote: »

So no. I'm not buying the 'we watch it on tv' line. If that was the case we could all sit in front of TG4 for a few weeks and be fluent.

So I've asked 2 Swedes, 1 Turkish, 1 Greek person separately.

"How did you learn to speak and communicate in English"

Every one said they learn basics in school but that TV, films, internet and video games where how they learned to speak and communicate. The shows are all in English, many with their language subtitled on the bottom. They all said that gave them a good base and they improved when they moved here.

So, take what you will from that. It's purely anecdotal and a small sample. One thing they all said which I think a good few of us alluded too is they all wanted to speak it and speak it well. They see it as a good thing to have for a variety of reasons.

[edit: Added many]

ohnonotgmail

Reati wrote: »

So I've asked 2 Swedes, 1 Turkish, 1 Greek person separately.

"How did you learn to speak and communicate in English"

Every one said they learn basics in school but that TV, films, internet and video games where how they learned to speak and communicate. The shows are all in English with their language subtitled on the bottom. They all said that gave them a good base and they improved when they moved here.

So, take what you will from that. It's purely anecdotal and a small sample. One thing they all said which I think a good few of us alluded too is they all wanted to speak it and speak it well. They see it as a good thing to have for a variety of reasons.

They have the advantage of a lot of english language media so learning is almost incidental. You cant say the same about irish. There just isn't enough irish language media for that approach to be as successful here.

Reati

feargale wrote: »

Irish language enthusiasts would be better off communicating with each other in the Gaeilge forum.

Some posters seem to think there is no world outside boards. There is bigger groups that Irish speakers use. There is one such group I use with over 10 thousands of speakers, not a word of English is used. It has plenty of topics posted a day.

feargale wrote: »

As for trying to evangelise among the unconverted you may as well try to start a decade of the rosary in a brothel.

I came here to dispel myths and lies that some posters were declaring as facts. I'm not in the converting business (though If I was I hear religion is more profitable than a language).

feargale

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct. The fact the Gaeilge forum / thread only gets a few posts a month show how few people actually use Irish. Maybe in needs a 100% gaeltacht grant or something.

And let's hope you take the other points made as well.

feargale

Reati wrote: »

Some posters seem to think there is no world outside boards. There is bigger groups that Irish speakers use. There is one such group I use with over 10 thousands of speakers, not a word of English is used. It has plenty of topics posted a day.

I doubt that you encounter any of the evangelists in such groups. Rather than speak Irish some of them would prefer to speak about it to people who are not interested.

Reati wrote: »

I came here to dispel myths and lies that some posters were declaring as facts. I'm not in the converting business.

And more power to you for that. I have done the same myself in these threads, not just to dispel myths but to remind gob****es who know nothing about language that good manners don't cost anything and that gratuitous insults to a language community are as boorish as similar insults to a religious or ethnic community for instance.
My remarks were not directed against posters such as you. However, if you look at the opening post and post no. 22 I think you will see exactly what I mean, and will appreciate that such nonsense, making people's lives subservient to somebody's hobby horse, (where did we eee that before?) simply brings the language and its speakers and enthusiasts into disrepute,

ohnonotgmail

feargale wrote: »

I doubt that you encounter any ofvthe evangelists in such groups. Rather than speak Irish some of them would prefer to speak about it to people who are not interested.




And more power to you for that. I have done the same myself in these threads, not just to dispel myths but to remind gob****es who know nothing about language that good manners don't cost anything and that gratuitous insults to a language community are as boorish as similar insults to a religious or ethnic community for instance.
My remarks were not directed against posters such as you. However, if you look at the opening post and post no. 22 I think you will see exactly what I mean, and will appreciate that such nonsense simply brings the language and its speakers and enthusiasts into disrepute,

to be fair both of those posts are by a rereg troll so i dont see them as indicative of anything at all.

feargale

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

to be fair both of those posts are by a rereg troll so i dont see them as indicative of anything at all.

Ok, but he/she is not alone.

Let me also say that I have no problem with people decrying the policies of government or language organisations. What is objectionable is the yob jibing of a language community, in particular of those born into the language.

blanch152

_blaaz wrote: »

For this to be a valid critism,there would need to be evidemce of gaelscoils deliberately persueing the enrollement policy your suggesting??


I know plenty people with little to no irish who have kids in/places booked in gaelscoils??

Again, I am not accusing gaelscoileanna of deliberately pursuing a policy of exclusion.

I am addressing the motivations of parents that send their children to gaelscoileanna.

ohnonotgmail

feargale wrote: »

Ok, but he/she is not alone.

Well the first post is harmless enough but i really haven't seen anybody else support the points in post #22

blanch152

Reati wrote: »

Good, because they simply don't.



Some people do it because Gaelscoil statistically have smaller classes and score higher in national testing. Some do it for the love of the Irish language. Some do it because they have big GAA heads on them. Some do it because they live next door to it. I'm sure there is lots of differnet motivations just like every parent has for picking the schools they pick.

This is some great gatekeeping on the Gaelscoileanna though folks. I'm glad to see you so concerned about the reasons parents have for sending thier own kids to the school of thier choice.



You posted this before and I addressed both aspects as best as possible.

1. Without the numbers for people who apply you can't actually draw any conclusion bar there is less of those categories of students. One basic thing you learn in statistics is correlation is not always equal to causation. You simply do not have the full data set to claim they do not enroll certain segments.

2. I gave you a pretty likely answer. I'd say the majority of parents of foreign kids, who don't speak English as a home language would want their kids to be educated through the primarily used language. Let's not forget this is one way how Irish went into decline in the 1800's. Families sent kids to be educated through English as in those days it offered more financial chances to a better live like moving to America. Its hardly a leap to think the same would apply here.

My sole point is that some parents pick Gaelscoileanna because they know that their Johnny or their Mary won't be sitting beside a non-national or a traveller child. Like it or not, that is a reality.

No reflection on the school, or its enrollment policy, no reflection on people like you who have a love of the language.

_blaaz

blanch152 wrote: »

My sole point is that some parents pick Gaelscoileanna because they know that their Johnny or their Mary won't be sitting beside a non-national or a traveller child. Like it or not, that is a reality.

If its such a reality....perhaps you have irrefutable evidence to support your assertion

blanch152

_blaaz wrote: »

If its such a reality....perhaps you have irrefutable evidence to support your assertion

If you are asking me to produce racist people who admit that they are racist, well you know the answer. The statistics tell an uncomfortable story and the abundance of new Gaelscoileanna in relatively wealthy parts of Dublin complete the story. It is an uncomfortable truth for those who love the language, but ignoring it or pretending it isn't there isn't the answer.

I would say something. Given the evidence, the onus should be on Gaeilscoileanna to reach out to those groups unrepresented in their schools. There are schemes in the public service to increase the number of women in senior posts to reduce the gender inequality. That is an example of an organisation acting to ensure that there is no inequality in its ranks.

_blaaz

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are asking me to produce racist people who admit that they are racist, well you know the answer. The statistics tell an uncomfortable story and the abundance of new Gaelscoileanna in relatively wealthy parts of Dublin complete the story. It is an uncomfortable truth for those who love the language, but ignoring it or pretending it isn't there isn't the answer.

I would say something. Given the evidence, the onus should be on Gaeilscoileanna to reach out to those groups unrepresented in their schools. There are schemes in the public service to increase the number of women in senior posts to reduce the gender inequality. That is an example of an organisation acting to ensure that there is no inequality in its ranks.

So in other words you have nothing to support your theory that your trying to pass off as a fact.....and infact it has no basis in any reality beyond your peraonal opinon....your mad craic



Tbh on a serious note all schools should be garlscoils anyway...its way of the future

feargale

@

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well the first post is harmless enough but i really haven't seen anybody else support the points in post #22

_blaaz wrote: »

Tbh on a serious note all schools should be garlscoils anyway...its way of the future

Well here's a poster who would apparently deny people educaution in their native language if that is their choice.

Reati

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are asking me to produce racist people who admit that they are racist, well you know the answer. The statistics tell an uncomfortable story and the abundance of new Gaelscoileanna in relatively wealthy parts of Dublin complete the story. It is an uncomfortable truth for those who love the language, but ignoring it or pretending it isn't there isn't the answer.

I would say something. Given the evidence, the onus should be on Gaeilscoileanna to reach out to those groups unrepresented in their schools. There are schemes in the public service to increase the number of women in senior posts to reduce the gender inequality. That is an example of an organisation acting to ensure that there is no inequality in its ranks.

I'll get back to your other post but this one needs to be nipped in the bud.

The statistics do not show the whole picture. You are continually ignoring this to prove your point of view. Unless you are going to tell us your "evidence" for how you are proving causation you are presenting a statistical fallacy as fact and that's simply you showing you either have 1)an agenda or 2)unfamiliarity with how statistical analysis works. Numbers can be massaged to tell any message pushed by an agenda. We don't have to look far to see example of that.

If you don't think Gaelscoileanna are racist why do you keep trying to attach a racial stigma to them? If you truly think this is the case and you seem deeply concerned about it, raise it with the department of education? Amazing how many make this racist claim don't feel enough civic pride to report it to the department either.

Badly Drunk Boy

blanch152 wrote: »

I would say something. Given the evidence, the onus should be on Gaeilscoileanna to reach out to those groups unrepresented in their schools. There are schemes in the public service to increase the number of women in senior posts to reduce the gender inequality. That is an example of an organisation acting to ensure that there is no inequality in its ranks.

Why? If the people involved in the Gaeilscoileanna are happy where they are (the students and their parents), and these 'unrepresented' groups aren't being denied entry and don't particularly want to go to Gaeilscoileanna...then what's the problem?

Or do you have evidence that certain ethnicities are denied places in these schools because of 'what' they are, other than the fact that they don't go to them?

Simple_Simone

feargale wrote: »

you may as well try to start a decade of the rosary in a brothel.

Are we talking Joyful, Sorrowful or Glorious Mysteries? (Or would that be an ecumenical matter?)