Irish language revival

Reati

Snow Garden wrote: »

Says the top poster on the thread that will not allow any criticism.

I didn't know I was given a mod position that I could tell people how to post? Cheers for the promo!

Snow Garden

blanch152 wrote: »

I have a problem with gaeilscoileanna because of the statistics:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-speaking-schools-far-less-likely-to-have-overseas-students-1.3296113

"A Department of Education analysis of school enrolment for 2015/2016 shows non-Irish nationals accounted for 10.6 per cent of pupils in primary education. By contrast, among all-Irish primary schools, this fell to 1.6 per cent. A similar pattern is repeated at second level."

From this academic study:

http://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/8563/1/Immigration%20and%20school%20composition%20in%20Ireland.pdf

"Immigrants are also less highly represented in Gaelscoileanna than in English-medium schools"

When you look into it and you see that Gaelscoileanna have less non-national pupils, less special needs pupils and less traveller children than English-medium schools, you have to wonder sometimes about the motivations of some of the parents.

Not a bit surprised by those figures.

And it does make sense that non-nationals would prefer English speaking schools for their children to help them integrate. However that is EXACTLY why the gaelscoils became so popular all of a sudden. Many Irish parents during the boom knew that the non-nationals would be put off directly or indirectly by strict All Irish schools and started pressurising politicians to build brand new gaelscoils to segregate their pure children. It certainly wasn't from a love of the language. Now there are too many gaelscoils and too many primary schools overall leading to stretched education costs. The gaelscoils are over-subscribed by snobby/precious parents and the existing schools are under capacity.

Trust me, when the next recession comes the love for the Irish language will wane again.

Fourier

Reati what do you think of the fact that Gaelscoileanna students don't come out with a command of the language that close to natives? Particularly in phonology.

Igotadose

Snow Garden wrote: »

And it does make sense that non-nationals would prefer English speaking schools for their children to help them integrate.

Every parent I know with children in the gaelscoil and in the national schools, without exception, says the children in the gaelscoil get a better education.

Perhaps that's why parents want them? Because they're perceived as doing a better job? Rather than some anti-immigrant racial purity thing like you're so certain of?

Reati

Fourier wrote: »

Reati what do you think of the fact that Gaelscoileanna students don't come out with a command of the language that close to natives? Particularly in phonology.

I assume you're referring to what's known as the Gaelscoil dialect (though I think that's debatable) or Gaelscoilish.

Urban Irish is indeed influenced by grammar structures and sound of English (much in the way our English was heavily influenced by Irish). Languages evolve all the time so it's hard to say it's a good or bad thing but I'm not a native speaker so it might be worth getting thier opinion.

An interesting thing I remember from the brief studies I've read the Gaeltachtaí were experiencing the same.

This doesn't seem to be unique to Irish though. Portuguese spoke in Portugal and Brazil is apperantly wildy different in the same way so a Portuguese girl I work with say. I haven't looked into it.

What's your opinion?

Fourier

Reati wrote: »

I assume you're referring to what's known as the Gaelscoil dialect (though I think that's debatable) or Gaelscoilish.

Urban Irish is indeed influenced by grammar structures and sound of English (much in the way our English was heavily influenced by Irish). Languages evolve all the time so it's hard to say it's a good or bad thing but I'm not a native speaker so it might be worth getting thier opinion.

An interesting thing I remember from the brief studies I've read the Gaeltachtaí were experiencing the same.

This doesn't seem to be unique to Irish though. Portuguese spoke in Portugal and Brazil is apperantly wildy different in the same way so a Portuguese girl I work with say. I haven't looked into it.

What's your opinion?

Hard to say.

There has been a reduction in traditional grammar in the Gaeltachtaí (read An Chonair Chaoch if you wish to know more). The dative collapsed around 1950, the genitive is largely gone from younger speakers and hasn't been used in Galway Irish extensively for years, relatives are restricted and so on. However aside from one or two points the phonology is largely the same.

However there are some studies showing Gaelscoil students have a hard time understanding natives or reading native novels. And formal studies show much greater influence from English in the grammar than for native speaking students. I don't know what to think if that is the case.

However the youngest cohort of Gaeltacht natives (< 10 years old) perform worse again. Not a pleasant picture.

Reati

Fourier wrote: »

Hard to say.

There has been a reduction in traditional grammar in the Gaeltachtaí (read An Chonair Chaoch if you wish to know more). The dative collapsed around 1950, the genitive is largely gone from younger speakers and hasn't been used in Galway Irish extensively for years, relatives are restricted and so on. However aside from one or two points the phonology is largely the same.

However there are some studies showing Gaelscoil students have a hard time understanding natives or reading native novels. And formal studies show much greater influence from English in the grammar than for native speaking students. I don't know what to think if that is the case.

However the youngest cohort of Gaeltacht natives (< 10 years old) perform worse again. Not a pleasant picture.

Again wouldn't be an expert so can't give more than the opinion I gave. Will give thet a read. Any links to the studies?

Edit. I wonder if English medium schools oral Irish has the same tendency.

Stop moaning ffs

‘In putting my little Sorcha and Jack in a school that teaches through a ‘dead language’ cos I want to keep them away from filthy immigrants’

Are you fvckin listening to yourselves?
The stupidity of it


Not to mention children taught bilingually have better development and brain development with other languages especially and
Class sizes are smaller in Gaelscoils.
And them ‘bloody immigrants’ don’t actually want to put their kids in a foreign language school cos a/common sense and b/neither do the majority of parents actually from here want to either.

Put the racist nonsense away you’re makihg fools of yourselves.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How do you say O Captain my Captain in Irish???

Open to correction here, but it should be as simple as

"O Chaptaein, mo chaptaen"

Jellybaby1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Only over the dead bodies of most of the DUP.

Reati wrote: »

The gas thing is a set of their ancestors were the saviours of the Irish language in a way. They took it, spoke it and preserved it before it become weaponized. I read a great book on it years ago that's name escapes me.

Edit: Found a article about it.
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/presbyterians-and-the-irish-language-roger-blaney-ulster-historical-foundationthe-ultach-trust-6-50-isbn-0-901905-75-5/

I'm finding it hard to continue reading this thread. However the above two posts stuck in my mind. #Reati you are correct and I watched this documentary, twice in fact, its excellently presented by Mary McAleese.

Mná na nGlinntí,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYa07V5Svlc

This also worth giving a minute to read:

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2015/11/09/news/linda-ervine-i-gained-so-much-from-learning-the-irish-language-318630/

The way I see it, the Irish language is for everyone and anyone who wants to learn it. No one should be forced to learn any language.

Junkyard Tom

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘
Are you fvckin listening to yourselves?
The stupidity of it

They start with a hatred of the language and then seek out excuses for it. It's the same names that cannot help but defend the actions of the British state in Ireland before and after partition - crypto-unionists.

PeadarCo

Junkyard Tom wrote:

They start with a hatred of the language and then seek out excuses for it. It's the same names that cannot help but defend the actions of the British state in Ireland before and after partition - crypto-unionists.

So what you are saying is if you don't actively speak Irish or support it a person is British and not Irish? Which basically rules out the majority of Irish citizens, who at best pay lip service to the language. I know with the Brexit debate we have seen some clueless comments about Ireland. However calling Irish people British because they don't speak the language or support it is right up there.

_blaaz

PeadarCo wrote: »

So what you are saying is if you don't actively speak Irish or support it a person is British and not Irish? Which basically rules out the majority of Irish citizens, who at best pay lip service to the language. I know with the Brexit debate we have seen some clueless comments about Ireland. However calling Irish people British because they don't speak the language or support it is right up there.

He didnt say anything close to this??


You can be anti-irish and not pro-british.....but it seems that same posters who pop.up mocking and demonising all thing irish (gaelscoils=racism...wtf)....are nearly always pro british from what i red so far

Junkyard Tom

PeadarCo wrote: »

So what you are saying is if you don't actively speak Irish or support it a person is British and not Irish?

I don't actively speak it or support it. Am I calling myself British?

However calling Irish people British because they don't speak the language or support it is right up there.

I didn't call them British. I described them as 'crypto-unionists'. I have no idea what their nationality is. I think they're Irish but you'd have to ask them.

PeadarCo

_blaaz wrote:

He didnt say anything close to this??

I took the proto unionist comment to mean British or at least non Irish. I don't see any reason to raise this in a discussion on the Irish langauge as most Irish people pay lip service and don't/can't converse regularly in the language.

With regard to Gaelscoils. I'm aware they do have a good reputation which has a big attraction of its own. Do some parents sent their children there because lower amount of immigrants etc yes some probably do. Is that a reflection of the Gaelscoils themselves no, they are set up to provide an education through Irish. That naturally is selective in an English speaking country. No different to if it was another language other than English. Is it an area Gaelscoils could improve probably but I imagine when you look at numbers of migrant children, special needs children etc in any school there would be many more factors aside from the language of education to consider.

PeadarCo

Junkyard Tom wrote:

I didn't call them British. I described them as 'crypto-unionists'. I have no idea what their nationality is. I think they're Irish but you'd have to ask them.

What is crypto unionist and how does it apply to the Irish langauge? I took that word to mean British/non Irish. Obviously I'm wrong in the meaning you used based on what you've said.

Junkyard Tom

PeadarCo wrote: »

What is crypto unionist

A person whose sympathies lie with Unionism (and/or the British state) but they're not exactly forthcoming about it.

and how does it apply to the Irish langauge?

It's a general hatred of Irish nationalism/republicanism which they consider the language a major pillar of. This shit has been going on for centuries - they're still at it in the north.

I took that word to mean British/non Irish. Obviously I'm wrong in the meaning you used based on what you've said.

Unionism doesn't necessarily imply British although it doesn't exclude it either. You can be politically British (want to reverse Irish independence and reestablish British rule) and be Irish (see JanFebMar) there who hates the language.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They start with a hatred of the language and then seek out excuses for it. It's the same names that cannot help but defend the actions of the British state in Ireland before and after partition - crypto-unionists.

If people were opposed to exclusive schools they would be demanding the closure of the private school system. Or in favour of busing children from rich areas to poor and vice versa. Gaelschollana are hardly that exclusive in comparison to what goes on across society.

Stop moaning ffs

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They start with a hatred of the language and then seek out excuses for it. It's the same names that cannot help but defend the actions of the British state in Ireland before and after partition - crypto-unionists.

I had noticed that alright. It’s always almost like they search the words Irish or ireland (or Sinn Fein) and turn up to commence thread derailment. And are allowed to somehow.

*arent all the posh rugby schools in d4 predominantly Protestant?
No complaints about them if so. The financial cost to attend being a massive barrier to anyone except that smal subset who send their kids there.

Stop moaning ffs

How long do you have to be here before you’re from here? Why does every conversation about this language set off such a huge backlash. From people apparently from here?

astrofool

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

How long do you have to be here before you’re from here? Why does every conversation about this language set off such a huge backlash. From people apparently from here?

Unfortunately, Irish has hit the taxi syndrome, where so many people remember queuing and not getting taxi's up to the end of regulation, that they still have disdain for any complaints the taxi drivers make even today, compulsory Irish for those without an aptitude for the language is generating that disdain on a daily basis for every kid going through education, so it's no surprise to see the visceral reactions to it when it's mentioned.

I also think that teachers of other subjects are missing a beat by not wanting education to be through their medium of choice, English through mathematics, Home Ec through the medium of Geography, Religion as defined by physics, I would be gung ho about reviving history, but Brexit is already proving that the past cannot drive the future, no matter how much a little Englander wants it to.

bobbysands81

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A person whose sympathies lie with Unionism (and/or the British state) but they're not exactly forthcoming about it.



It's a general hatred of Irish nationalism/republicanism which they consider the language a major pillar of. This shit has been going on for centuries - they're still at it in the north.



Unionism doesn't necessarily imply British although it doesn't exclude it either. You can be politically British (want to reverse Irish independence and reestablish British rule) and be Irish (see JanFebMar) there who hates the language.

Ahhh, JanFebMar who is slating Irish names elsewhere on boards. A special type of self-loathing.

bobbysands81

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I had noticed that alright. It’s always almost like they search the words Irish or ireland (or Sinn Fein) and turn up to commence thread derailment. And are allowed to somehow.

*arent all the posh rugby schools in d4 predominantly Protestant?
No complaints about them if so. The financial cost to attend being a massive barrier to anyone except that smal subset who send their kids there.

Most private schools are of the Catholic ethos.

PeadarCo

Junkyard Tom wrote:

A person whose sympathies lie with Unionism (and/or the British state) but they're not exactly forthcoming about it.

So what you are saying it was a lazy ad hominen attack instead of tackling the core issue issue of peoples dislike of the language. You don't need to have any perceived unionist sympathies to dislike the language. Look through the threads on the topic are there are lots of reasons aside from Northern Ireland tribal conflict/rabbit hole. Reducing the dislike of Irish to one reason that I'd argue is only present in a small section of the Island and ignores the vast majority of the 6 million on the island is lazy debating.

janfebmar

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ahhh, JanFebMar who is slating Irish names elsewhere on boards. A special type of self-loathing.

Some Irish names are fine, but not all of them. In the same way some English names are fine, but not all of them.
It takes a certain type of loathing, Bobby sands, for you to continually snipe and bully someone as not being fully Irish just because they do not subscribe to your version of Republican, Gaelic Irishness.

I also differ from you, Bobby Sands, in that I think children in your GaelScoil should not be taught the Pira were great lads, and your one sided, slanted version of history. Take down your poster of Bobby Sands. The Pira killed Gardai and were no people to be admired.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

If it's the will of the majority that all schooling and state business be done through Irish for example, then some set of people will be unhappy and feel forced. I'm not sure how one can get around that. Same for other more controversial topics like Abortion, Divorce, Gay Marriage etc etc.

The forcing that people are alluding to that I refute is the minority forcing the majority against their will.


Exactly. I re-learned Irish as an adult. It was bloody hard work and still is. I learn new concepts and words all the time. But it takes serious work.

If you want to look at the hardships a language revival involves, read up on the revival of Hebrew. That was a real struggle. The language was actually dead till one guy who had to re-write and modernise most of it took it upon himself to revival it. He dedicated his life to it. That said, it's a rash oversimplification there is a lot of other factors that played into it.




Yup - we're back to the will of the people. It takes an army to make a language shift otherwise you are right, we'll stay in the status quo we have.

Not necessarily re the referendums - as people who opposed and ultimately lost weren't personally ordered to make changes. Opposing same sex marriage for example didn't mean you had to get married! Whereas a majority rule in a referendum bringing about your changed would mean drastic changes in lifestyle, no matter what way you voted.

Democracy or majority rules doesn't mean you get to force people to do what you want them to do. It means giving the them option to do it - and they already have the option to do it

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not necessarily re the referendums - as people who opposed and ultimately lost weren't personally ordered to make changes. Opposing same sex marriage for example didn't mean you had to get married! Whereas a majority rule in a referendum bringing about your changed would mean drastic changes in lifestyle, no matter what way you voted.

Democracy or majority rules doesn't mean you get to force people to do what you want them to do. It means giving the them option to do it - and they already have the option to do it

Fair enough for those ones. I meant it as an analogy (and I'm not gonna try expand it for fear the thread will start debating those topics instead!) maybe Brexit would have been a better example of such a vote. There is probably others too.

I think in a practical sense of a majority voted for that style of shift, there would be a long period of transition, services contuine to be available in both languages but the focus given to Irish.

Could look towards Luxembourg as one model to follow. They have 3 languages that people use, schools spend 4 years per language as total immersion. Government debate in one langauge, draft some laws in French, others in German. I don't know huge amounts about it so may look into it more.

Sardonicat

I would leave the country!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

Fair enough for those ones. I meant it as an analogy (and I'm not gonna try expand it for fear the thread will start debating those topics instead!) maybe Brexit would have been a better example of such a vote. There is probably others too.

I think in a practical sense of a majority voted for that style of shift, there would be a long period of transition, services contuine to be available in both languages but the focus given to Irish.

Could look towards Luxembourg as one model to follow. They have 3 languages that people use, schools spend 4 years per language as total immersion. Government debate in one langauge, draft some laws in French, others in German. I don't know huge amounts about it so may look into it more.

Problem with Brexit is that it a very good example of a decision made based on lies and selfish incentives.

I think the best option where would be to make school's bilingual as much as possible so that at least irish-language teaching would be an option for those who wanted it. But it still doesn't address the issue of how do you get people to want it.

People want their kids to get the best (and most hassle-free) education for their kids in terms of getting them into college and the work force and while they might like the idea of a bilingual society, they aren't going to gamble on the possibility of their kid missing out on third-level education simply because they struggle with one subject which may well be superfluous to what they want to do.

bobbysands81

janfebmar wrote: »

Some Irish names are fine, but not all of them. In the same way some English names are fine, but not all of them.
It takes a certain type of loathing, Bobby sands, for you to continually snipe and bully someone as not being fully Irish just because they do not subscribe to your version of Republican, Gaelic Irishness.

I also differ from you, Bobby Sands, in that I think children in your GaelScoil should not be taught the Pira were great lads, and your one sided, slanted version of history. Take down your poster of Bobby Sands. The Pira killed Gardai and were no people to be admired.

What the hell are you talking about???