Irish language revival

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You asked second. But no matter, my ideas are listed above. Now again: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

I've put far more time into this that I wanted too, given this thread will lead to zero change in either education, the opinions of those with an ghráin for Irish or the prevalence of Irish so let me give you a tl:dr version.

It's not as simple as a yes or no. Language shifts are long term events that normally happen across about 2 generations. It takes proper planning and commitment to make it occur. It takes more than 3,5hrs in education. There needs to be economic drivers to it too. In our case there needs to be cultural shift to want to speak Irish in the home and English in the workplace.

So, how do most language shifts work to cause a language to become prominent?

I'd say 2 fold.

1. Schools become immersion schools running immersion tracks in the desired language. In our case we'd need a split 50/50 English and Irish system. We can remove the exams if you want but remaining subjects need to be taught through those mediums in parallel.

2. It becomes the used language of the state. All dealing with the state and all government business is done through the desired language (in our case Irish). Politics are done through Irish etc etc

This needs to be done across 20 years or so to allow for the change and for people to get irish to a level where it can actually work.

That's a very short answer to a very complex thing to achieve.

So is there a revival coming about soon? In a way, it's clear there is a grassroots revival occurring thanks to the Gaelscoileanna, social media, Pop up Gaeltacht, Duolingo etc What does that translate into long term for Irish in day to day Ireland? I'm honestly not sure.

A true bilingual state takes a lot of effort on the part of both the government and its people. You can decide for yourself if the will is there. This thread would say it's not, yet for some reason 1.7 million people (1 in 4) felt the need to claim they can speak Irish and 60% of the population believe it is important to use, promote and protect the Irish language according the the Red C poll done on election day.

Whether that's a romantic desire to want to speak the language or a real desire to become a bilingual state is also beyond me. I'd hazard a guess it's the former though.

Sardonicat

That's an excellent answer and I agree that would be the only way to make Ireland bilingual. I wouldn't want those measures to be taken, however and I'm not sure how many would actually want them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

I've put far more time into this that I wanted too, given this thread will lead to zero change in either education, the opinions of those with an ghráin for Irish or the prevalence of Irish so let me give you a tl:dr version.

It's not as simple as a yes or no. Language shifts are long term events that normally happen across about 2 generations. It takes proper planning and commitment to make it occur. It takes more than 3,5hrs in education. There needs to be economic drivers to it too. In our case there needs to be cultural shift to want to speak Irish in the home and English in the workplace.

So, how do most language shifts work to cause a language to become prominent?

I'd say 2 fold.

1. Schools become immersion schools running immersion tracks in the desired language. In our case we'd need a split 50/50 English and Irish system. We can remove the exams if you want but remaining subjects need to be taught through those mediums in parallel.

2. It becomes the used language of the state. All dealing with the state and all government business is done through Irish. Politics are done through Irish etc etc

Your problem there (as you later point out, to be fair) is desire. People want their kids educated in the kids' first language, which is more often than not, going to be English. It'll also mean a lot of intelligent kids struggling with a new format (I would have been one of them: I regularly posted top grades in every subject, except Irish). This would have destroyed me as a capable and active student, and I'm guessing I wouldn't have been alone.

Education needs to be as stress free as possible.

And ultimately: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

This needs to be done across 20 years or so to allow for the change and for people to get irish to a level where it can actually work.

That's a very short answer to a very complex thing to achieve.

It might work if it was gradual laterally as well. For example make some optional subjects (such as geography or history) available in either English or Irish and let the student decide which one they want to do.

Again: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

So is there a revival coming about soon? In a way, it's clear there is a grassroots revival occurring thanks to the Gaelscoileanna, social media, Pop up Gaeltacht, Duolingo etc What does that translate into long term for Irish in day to day Ireland? I'm honestly not sure.

Because these are optional to the parents as well as the students. Good initiatives, but the work because they are optional.

If you have to use force...

A true bilingual state takes a lot of effort on the part of both the government and its people. You can decide for yourself if the will is there. This thread would say it's not, yet for some reason 1.7 million people (1 in 4) felt the need to claim they can speak Irish and 60% of the population believe it is important to use, promote and protect the Irish language according the the Red C poll done on election day.

Whether that's a romantic desire to want to speak the language or a real desire to become a bilingual state is also beyond me. I'd hazard a guess it's the former though.

The first one, definitely. And this is where your ideas fall down: you haven't considered how are you going to market the language in such a way that people move into category two (which involves said people learning the language and wanting their kids to learn it via immersive techniques) of their own accord.

Because - again - if you have to force people, the idea - whatever idea it is - simply won't work.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

KathleenGrant wrote: »

The Anglo-irish treaty negotiations that de Velera didn't even attend you mean???

De Valera went to London before any of the other delegates and spoke with Lloyd George one on one. Maybe you should revise your junior cert history.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your problem there (as you later point out, to be fair) is desire. People want their kids educated in the kids' first language, which is more often than not, going to be English. It'll also mean a lot of intelligent kids struggling with a new format (I would have been one of them: I regularly posted top grades in every subject, except Irish). This would have destroyed me as a capable and active student, and I'm guessing I wouldn't have been alone.

Education needs to be as stress free as possible.

And ultimately: if you have to use force, you've already lost.


It might work if it was gradual laterally as well. For example make some optional subjects (such as geography or history) available in either English or Irish and let the student decide which one they want to do.

Again: if you have to use force, you've already lost.


Because these are optional to the parents as well as the students. Good initiatives, but the work because they are optional.

If you have to use force...

The first one, definitely. And this is where your ideas fall down: you haven't considered how are you going to market the language in such a way that people move into category two (which involves said people learning the language and wanting their kids to learn it via immersive techniques) of their own accord.

Because - again - if you have to force people, the idea - whatever idea it is - simply won't work.

You keep saying the word force. Not once in my post did I say force. It requires the will of the people to want truly a Bilingual state. It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal. That was exactly the last point I said I can't answer. If those 60% actually want the change and will put the effort in or just the romantic notion of it. Adding/Changing a primary language in a country is not easy. It actually needs a generation to take the hardship for the generation that comes after them. I don't think the current Irish generation are willing to do that.

edit: For clarification, I am not suggesting we replace English. I am suggesting we have both languages fluent and bilingual.

As an aside for discussions sake. With the benefit of hindsight and history the forcing of a language would win in the longer term. This is how English become dominant here and in India, how Spanish and Portuguese dominate South America and French in Africa for example. Those people didn't wake up one morning and say "jolly good, let's change our language." They were forced to through systemic changes to both education, governance and I guess ultimately economically. Now, that's a very big juicy carrot to attack me with so to be very very clear, that is not the approach I'm advocating or suggesting, but simply pointing out that it's how many countries went through language shifts.

whisky_galore

It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal.[/quote]

Sounds an awful lot like forcing to me, just phrasing it differently, almost like some diktat out of the former USSR.

Why can't language zealots accept that not everyone wants to learn it for whatever reason? Live and let live.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

You keep saying the word force. Not once in my post did I say force. It requires the will of the people to want truly a Bilingual state. It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal. That was exactly the last point I said I can't answer. If those 60% actually want the change and will put the effort in or just the romantic notion of it. Changing a primary language in a country is not easy. It actually needs a generation to take the hardship for the generation that comes after them. I don't think the current Irish generation are willing to do that.

I know I did - but in fairness you have hinted at opposition to compulsory Irish, which would indicate to me you truly haven't understood that force gets you nowhere.

Nor did you indicate HOW you'd swing attitudes towards being supportive of your ideas. Or what you would do in the face of mass opposition.

As an aside for discussions sake. With the benefit of hindsight and history the forcing of a language would win in the longer term. This is how English become dominant here and in India, how Spanish and Portuguese dominate South America and French in Africa for example. Those people didn't wake up one morning and say "jolly good, let's change our language." They were forced to through systemic changes to both education, governance and I guess ultimately economically. Now, that's a very big juicy carrot to attack me with so to be very very clear, that is not the approach I'm advocating or suggesting, but simply pointing out that it's how many countries went through language shifts.

And if it's not the approach you're advocating, it's irrelevant. The question again is: how do you swing attitudes in favour of your ideas?

Reati

whisky_galore wrote: »

It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal.

Sounds an awful lot like forcing to me, just phrasing it differently, almost like some diktat out of the former USSR.

Why can't language zealots accept that not everyone wants to learn it for whatever reason? Live and let live.

Even when you quote out of context like you have it doesn't.

Why do zealots find a need to attack Irish language and speakers constantly? Amazingly I don't go around ask people why they send they kids to English medium schools but people are more than happy to tell me when I shouldn't send my kids to a Gaelscoil.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know I did - but in fairness you have hinted at opposition to compulsory Irish, which would indicate to me you truly haven't understood that force gets you nowhere.

I hinted or did I state it? I'm too lazy to look back Feel free to score a point (as I think that's the end goal of this now) on whatever I might have typed while replying to many people across the posts in here as proof I'm wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nor did you indicate HOW you'd swing attitudes towards being supportive of your ideas. Or what you would do in the face of mass opposition.

You asked how a revival could be achieved. I answered your question and this question within it. It's not up to me to force people to find their internal value for Irish. The 60% of people in Ireland are claiming they have this desire have to show it's real. The same is said for the polls showing a United Ireland is desired yet I don't know that people actually want it when push comes to shove.

The opposition question is loaded. I imagine the status quo wouldn't change though. If there was such an opposition it would have been a platform ran on long ago I'd have thought.
[/QUOTE]

Sardonicat

Who here on this thread has attacked the Irish language or speakers? Some have said they don't want to learn it or speak it. That's not attacking it. Several, myself included, have recounted the abysmal (and, given the official standing of Irish crimina)l way it was taught to them. Criminal because they failed in their duty to teach a language that is an official language of the state, and insist is part of our heritage and culture, thereby denying me and thousands, if not millions over the years, that aspect of our heritage and culture. In response to that we get claims that Irish gets great marks, as though those of us who left school without it (despite obtaining a decent grade in the LC!) are either too stupid or lazy to learn it.

PeadarCo

Reati wrote:

You asked how a revival could be achieved. I answered your question and this question within it. It's not up to me to force people to find their internal value for Irish. The 60% of people in Ireland are claiming they have this desire have to show it's real. The same is said for the polls showing a United Ireland is desired yet I don't know that people actually want it when push comes to shove.

If people want to learn and speak Irish why don't they? The country has about 4.5 million people. The vast majority of those people spend more than a decade studying Irish with a significant number obtaining decent grades. However there are only 70-100k active speakers of the language. Irish has being in constant decline for at least 100 plus years. Do most people want the language to die no, however when push comes to shove most people have no desire to speak it themselves. The issues Irish langauge speakers have using government services(never mind the private sector) tells its own story.

whisky_galore

Reati wrote: »

Even when you quote out of context like you have it doesn't.

Why do zealots find a need to attack Irish language and speakers constantly? Amazingly I don't go around ask people why they send they kids to English medium schools but people are more than happy to tell me when I shouldn't send my kids to a Gaelscoil.

Clarify what you mean by "a few years of toughness" then. What does that entail? What is this context?

Btw I don't give a fiddler's fcuk what school people send children to.

Reati

PeadarCo wrote: »

If people want to learn and speak Irish why don't they?

Couldn't tell you. Throwing out a guess though Learning a language is hard and requires immersion among other things.. Without a place to immerse oneself which respects that people have lives to live are few and far in between outside the West.

PeadarCo wrote: »

The vast majority of those people spend more than a decade studying Irish with a significant number obtaining decent grades. However there are only 70-100k active speakers of the language.

The majority of which are in Irish language immersion areas where they can actually speak to their neighbors in the language.

PeadarCo wrote: »

Irish has being in constant decline for at least 100 plus years. Do most people want the language to die no, however when push comes to shove most people have no desire to speak it themselves.

We can't have it both ways though. We either pull the finger out, take on the challenge as a committed nation or we don't and we let it die off in a generation or two depending on the end of life approach we take.

Reati

whisky_galore wrote: »

Clarify what you mean by "a few years of toughness" then. What does that entail? What is this context?

Learning a language to a working level is tough. People will need to take lessons, immerse themselves in content that requires them to do homework to learn new words, translate documents between languages, struggle in conversations at the start as people get used to working in and speaking with government bodies for example.

whisky_galore wrote: »

Btw I don't give a fiddler's fcuk what school people send children to.

It's great that you don't but that not the experience I've personally had. In this thread alone others have said the only reason people send kids to a Gaelscoil is we're racist or elitist. That's sadly quite a common comment actually and here isn't the first place I've heard it.

Reati

Sardonicat wrote: »

Who here on this thread has attacked the Irish language or speakers?

There may be more but I've not time to go back through this entire thread.

Snow Garden wrote: »

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

janfebmar wrote: »

Parents usually send theirs kids to Gaelscoil not for Irish, but so that their kids are not the ones to mix with immigrants and blacks.

janfebmar wrote: »

It's an ugly dead language and a waste if taxpayers money.

whisky_galore

Reati wrote: »

We can't have it both ways though. We either pull the finger out, take on the challenge as a committed nation or we don't and we let it die off in a generation or two depending on the end of life approach we take.

So status quo then. Shovel more money at it and perhaps 'sex up' the school curriculum once a decade.

The vested interests won't see it die, it will continue on life support. A half-life, not quite living yet not quite dead.

Can't upset the people favourably disposed to the language, esp. the ones that can only ask permission to use the facilities in the medium after years of schooling.

Reati

whisky_galore wrote: »

So status quo then. Shovel more money at it and perhaps 'sex up' the school curriculum once a decade.

The vested interests won't see it die, it will continue on life support. A half-life, not quite living yet not quite dead.

Can't upset the people favourably disposed to the language, esp. the ones that can only ask permission to use the facilities in the medium.

Instead of snide little digs toward Irish speakers. What do you want to see happen? Present what you think we should do?

whisky_galore

Reati wrote: »

Instead of snide little digs toward Irish speakers. What do you want to see happen? Present what you think we should do?

Try not to be permanently butthurt.
Let's be realistic, people who pretend to be speakers by ticking a box in the Census but can't string a sentence together, but would rather someone else to keep the language alive. But not them, because they're far too busy.

I couldn't care less if people speak it or not. Languages died out before, so what?

Reati

whisky_galore wrote: »

Try not to be permanently butthurt.
Let's be realistic, people who pretend to be speakers by ticking a box in the Census but can't string a sentence together, but would rather someone else to keep the language alive. But not them, because they're far too busy.

I couldn't care less if people speak it or not. Languages died out before, so what?

If you couldn't care less, why are you constantly posting in the thread?

whisky_galore

Reati wrote: »

If you couldn't care less, why are you constantly posting in the thread?

What do you care?

Just pointing out hypocrisy, and a few truths that people like you find hard to swallow.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

I hinted or did I state it? I'm too lazy to look back Feel free to score a point (as I think that's the end goal of this now) on whatever I might have typed while replying to many people across the posts in here as proof I'm wrong.

Hinted at. You asked another poster why he's scrap compulsory Irish, so it was unclear. But my point remains: I'm not entirely convinced you believe you can bring your goals about without duress.

You asked how a revival could be achieved. I answered your question and this question within it. It's not up to me to force people to find their internal value for Irish. The 60% of people in Ireland are claiming they have this desire have to show it's real. The same is said for the polls showing a United Ireland is desired yet I don't know that people actually want it when push comes to shove.

Yeah, as long as they don;t have to put the work in! (But, to be fair, you've alluded to this yourself anyway)

The opposition question is loaded. I imagine the status quo wouldn't change though. If there was such an opposition it would have been a platform ran on long ago I'd have thought.

Fair enough. But if the status quo won't change, then THAT'S the biggest obstacle to a revival right there.

Reati

whisky_galore wrote: »

What do you care?

You have been following the thread right? I've been pretty constants in this. I learned the language as an adult (I was terrible at it in school btw!) I speak the language daily. I have kids educated through the language. I believe there is cultural value in the language as the living language of our ancestors. I believe in the benefits to bilingualism (no matter the language I might add).

whisky_galore wrote: »

Just pointing out hypocrisy, and a few truths that people like you find hard to swallow.

Which hypocrisy?

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Hinted at. You asked another poster why he's scrap compulsory Irish, so it was unclear. But my point remains: I'm not entirely convinced you believe you can bring your goals about without duress.

If it's the will of the majority that all schooling and state business be done through Irish for example, then some set of people will be unhappy and feel forced. I'm not sure how one can get around that. Same for other more controversial topics like Abortion, Divorce, Gay Marriage etc etc.

The forcing that people are alluding to that I refute is the minority forcing the majority against their will.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yeah, as long as they don;t have to put the work in! (But, to be fair, you've alluded to this yourself anyway)

Exactly. I re-learned Irish as an adult. It was bloody hard work and still is. I learn new concepts and words all the time. But it takes serious work.

If you want to look at the hardships a language revival involves, read up on the revival of Hebrew. That was a real struggle. The language was actually dead till one guy who had to re-write and modernise most of it took it upon himself to revival it. He dedicated his life to it. That said, it's a rash oversimplification there is a lot of other factors that played into it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough. But if the status quo won't change, then THAT'S the biggest obstacle to a revival right there.

Yup - we're back to the will of the people. It takes an army to make a language shift otherwise you are right, we'll stay in the status quo we have.

ohnonotgmail

Reati wrote: »

If it's the will of the majority that all schooling and state business be done through Irish for example, then some set of people will be unhappy and feel forced. I'm not sure how one can get around that. Same for other more controversial topics like Abortion, Divorce, Gay Marriage etc etc.

Do you think it is the will of the majority now? Do think it is ever likely to be the will of the majority?

Reati

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do you think it is the will of the majority now? Do think it is ever likely to be the will of the majority?

I feel like the chap on the mountain who supposedly knows everything.

I have no idea. The polls are all we have to correlate too and they say yes but do we believe them? I think, it's a yes in the romantic sense but the minute you put the hard work in front of it, people are like oh wait, there is effort? I have to do something. Na, grand speaking the old English.

What is your view?

ohnonotgmail

Reati wrote: »

I feel like the chap on the mountain who supposedly knows everything.

I have no idea. The polls are all we have to correlate too and they say yes but do we believe them? I think, it's a yes in the romantic sense but the minute you put the hard work in front of it, people are like oh wait, there is effort? I have to do something. Na, grand speaking the old English.

What is your view?

The majority who say yes are doing it for purely romantic reasons. If you told them they would have to do all business with the state through irish they would change their mind very quickly. I dont think there are many who want it to die away but forcing people to use it is not the answer.

whisky_galore

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont think there are many who want it to die away

Are the people who don't want to see it fade away prepared to use it?

If not, then they are the hypocrites.

It's like people whining that their local shop or post office closed, blaming the govt or Centra or An Post. No, wait. You closed down your shop because you didn't bother your arse using it.

blanch152

Reati wrote: »

Even when you quote out of context like you have it doesn't.

Why do zealots find a need to attack Irish language and speakers constantly? Amazingly I don't go around ask people why they send they kids to English medium schools but people are more than happy to tell me when I shouldn't send my kids to a Gaelscoil.

I have a problem with gaeilscoileanna because of the statistics:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-speaking-schools-far-less-likely-to-have-overseas-students-1.3296113


"A Department of Education analysis of school enrolment for 2015/2016 shows non-Irish nationals accounted for 10.6 per cent of pupils in primary education. By contrast, among all-Irish primary schools, this fell to 1.6 per cent. A similar pattern is repeated at second level."

From this academic study:

http://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/8563/1/Immigration%20and%20school%20composition%20in%20Ireland.pdf

"Immigrants are also less highly represented in Gaelscoileanna than in English-medium schools"


When you look into it and you see that Gaelscoileanna have less non-national pupils, less special needs pupils and less traveller children than English-medium schools, you have to wonder sometimes about the motivations of some of the parents.

Reati

blanch152 wrote: »

I have a problem with gaeilscoileanna because of the statistics:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-speaking-schools-far-less-likely-to-have-overseas-students-1.3296113


"A Department of Education analysis of school enrolment for 2015/2016 shows non-Irish nationals accounted for 10.6 per cent of pupils in primary education. By contrast, among all-Irish primary schools, this fell to 1.6 per cent. A similar pattern is repeated at second level."

From this academic study:

http://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/8563/1/Immigration%20and%20school%20composition%20in%20Ireland.pdf

"Immigrants are also less highly represented in Gaelscoileanna than in English-medium schools"


When you look into it and you see that Gaelscoileanna have less non-national pupils, less special needs pupils and less traveller children than English-medium schools, you have to wonder sometimes about the motivations of some of the parents.

The Irish time link contains conflicting studies and results depending on if Gaeltacht schools are included or not.

Now, to prove the underlying racism point you are trying to find. I'd argue you actually would need to have the information for people who apply and compare that to those actually accepted in Gaelscoileanna. I'm not sure if those figures would available for any school.

That said, it's hardly a leap to think non nationals would want their kids to be educated through English if that's not the language they use at home. Wouldn't you think?

I'm on the phone but will look at the larger 18 page study you provided and get back to you.

Snow Garden

Reati wrote: »

If you couldn't care less, why are you constantly posting in the thread?

Says the top poster on the thread that will not allow any criticism.