Irish language revival

Fourier

I do agree with Reati, I doubt more people in Ireland (who aren't immigrants from Francophone countries obviously) can actually speak French than can speak Irish. You can see that in exam statistics at both 2nd and 3rd level. Which is surprising as Irish is harder than French.

Not that massive numbers speak Irish, we're just bad all round at languages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

I call BS. I will gladly FOI request for the results of that school and post here come August. PM the name.

You seem to be doing that a lot.

How about adressing the issue: secondary school does nothing to garner a revival of the language, instead being happy to just force itself onto Irish students and maintain the status quo.

Reati

Sardonicat wrote: »

I can order a beer in French. I can't in Irish.

An féidir liom beoir a fháil

ILoveYourVibes

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Is anyone doubting Irish is taught badly? And is in need of serious reinvigorating?

nope

Sardonicat

Reati wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

I can order a beer in French. I can't in Irish.

An féidir liom beoir a fháil

Tis a pity no one thought to teach students how to order food and drink in Irish instead of getting us to learn stuff off by heart when I was at school. I think that's the point people are trying to make. Of I could have conversed in Irish I would have given it a shot but was never given the tools to do that.

Do I hate the language? No!
But I will say it again, I do not regard it as some fundamental facet if my identity because it's not.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You seem to be doing that a lot

I do and when people actually present facts I won't.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How about adressing the issue: secondary school does nothing to garner a revival of the language, instead being happy to just force itself onto Irish students and maintain the status quo.

I'd love too but that's not what the conversation has been about for the last 24hrs. Let's do a short recap of the last few pages.

1. Billions are "wasted" on Irish. No they are not. Figures provided refuting.
2. Yeah but that doesn't account for billions in education. Figures provided refuting.
3. Yeah but Irish is taught badly. We produce better more fluent French / German / Mongolian speakers. Figures provided refuting.

Repeat point 3 Ad nauseam with a sprinkling of 1 and 2.

RobMc59

An outside view is you seem to beat yourselves up about this.I live in England near the border with Wales and if you travel into mid Wales and beyond Welsh is quite common but the Welsh don`t seem obsessed with whether it`s spoken or not.

Reati

Sardonicat wrote: »

But I will say it again, I do not regard it as some fundamental facet if my identity because it's not.

I've seen this comment a few times. What really interesting to me, as an Irish speaker, is I've never heard another genuine Irish speaker (i.e not a troll online) say an Irish monglot English speaker is less Irish because they can't speak the language.

I genuinely only see non Irish speakers feel the need to actually reinforce this.

I will glady echo You absolutely are not less Irish because you haven't got Irish as a spoken language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

I do and when people actually present facts I'll won't.



I'd love too but that's not what the conversation has been about for the last 24hrs. Let's do a short recap of the last few pages.

1. Billions are "wasted" on Irish. No they are not. Figures provided refuting.
2. Yeah but that doesn't account for billions in education. Figures provided refuting.
3. Yeah but Irish is taught badly. We produce better more fluent French / German / Mongolian speakers. Figures provided refuting.

Repeat point 3 Ad nauseam with a sprinkling of 1 and 2.

1 and 2 - The amounts are irrelevant: it's it 48 euro, 48 million or 48 billion; if it's not doing nothing to enhance the image of Irish amongst skeptical teenagers, it's being wasted (and the number was specific to education, I believe)
3 - The numbers are irrelevant - If it's not creating more Irish speakers, SOMETHING is wrong.

Again - you're getting so caught up with facts and figures (or hiding behind them), you're not see the whole picture: reviving Irish.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 and 2 - The numbers are irrelevant: it's it 48 euro, 48 million or 48 billion; if it's not doing nothing to enhance the image of Irish amongst skeptical teenagers, it's being wasted (and the number was specific to education, I believe)
3 - If it's not creating more Irish speakers, SOMETHING is wrong.

Again - you're getting so caught up with facts and figures, you're not see the whole picture: reviving Irish.

Course I am more aware of the whole picture but I'm not the one coming in rat-holing on education. I'm simply refuting the BS as people wade in, drop a "fact" and float back out so the conversation is stuck.

Now your back doing the same thing again. The numbers are irrelevant because Irish isn't cool with skeptical teenagers? Seriously that's the argument now? I suppose French is a ride of a language to teenagers?

The numbers are relevant for two reasons. 1. They are the first thing out of people's mouths. 2. People believe replacing Irish with a different language will see us produce fluent speakers of that language. Both refuted to death. Flogging the dead horse.

If you want to move the conversation along, just present your case on why revival can or can't happen (without a big rehash of the last couple of pages) and I'll gladly discuss that.

Edit: see you edited to throw a snide little dig in about hiding behind facts. Getting down to the personal comments now?

astrofool

cjmc wrote: »

It’s probably been mentioned but the way Irish is taught in school is awful. We have all grabbed the basics of the grammar in national school and all we get fed in secondary school is peig and more ****e.
No conversational Irish or buying stuff , getting directions etc . Most people I know have said they knew more useful french / German than Irish when they left school.. when I did my leaving if I was dropped in the Gaeltacht I couldn’t have looked for food or directions and I still got a B at pass level
Conversational Irish and repetition would make it easier to go into somewhere , shop , pub whatever and ask for stuff in Irish and meaning more places would have staff to reciprocate.

And yet apparently people score higher points in Irish on average than other subjects, almost like they want to try and make it relevant for people applying to college (because there's f'all chance they'll need it again there).

Reati

astrofool wrote: »

And yet apparently people score higher points in Irish on average than other subjects, almost like they want to try and make it relevant for people applying to college (because there's f'all chance they'll need it again there).

Welcome back! Thanks for wading in with more tired opinion again.

There is no apparently. The facts show they score higher.

I asked you already for proof Irish is marked easier if you are going to make that claim.

Anyway we're trying to move on to discuss revival I think now. I hope!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

Course I am more aware of the whole picture but I'm not the one coming in rat-holing on education. I'm simply refuting the BS as people wade in, drop a "fact" and float back out so the conversation is stuck.

Now your back doing the same thing again. The numbers are irrelevant because Irish isn't cool with skeptical teenagers? Seriously that's the argument now? I suppose French is a ride of a language to teenagers?

This depends - do you want to see a revival in Irish or French amongst Irish teenagers?

The numbers are relevant for two reasons. 1. They are the first thing out of people's mouths. 2. People believe replacing Irish with a different language will see us produce fluent speakers of that language. Both refuted to death. Flogging the dead horse.


If you want to move the conversation along, just present your case on why revival can or can't happen (without a big rehash of the last couple of pages) and I'll gladly discuss that.

1 and 2 - the relevancy is in the results.

Presenting my case (again) - it can't happen because people nit-pick on numbers and refuse to accept that the money (whatever the amount) is being wasted and the system is failing, as there is little to no increase in the amount of everyday Irish being spoken around the country. I put it to you that you are unconcerned by this.

Edit: see you edited to throw a snide little dig in about hiding behind facts. Getting down to the personal comments now?

"Hiding behind"? I think you'll notice I said "caught up with". Merely an observation, take it as you wish.

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Presenting my case (again) - it can't happen because people nit-pick on numbers and refuse to accept that the money (whatever the amount) is being wasted and the system is failing, as there is little to no increase in the amount of everyday Irish being spoken around the country.

So we should do...?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

"Hiding behind"? I think you'll notice I said "caught up with". Merely an observation, take it as you wish.

No, you edited and add in the bold part.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?[/quote

Missed your edit. 'Afraid I asked first will happily answer next reply to you.

Snow Garden

We somehow found an English version of Peig - it was like golddust! The book got passed around the class so that people could finally grasp what she was rabbiting on about, the moany yoke.

Reati

Snow Garden wrote: »

We somehow found an English version of Peig - it was like golddust! The book got passed around the class so that people could finally grasp what she was rabbiting on about, the moany yoke.

I said way back at the start Peig both linguisticly and content wise is a tough read in English let alone Irish. It really didn't do anyone any favors.

She did have a way with words though. Far too much God and Devil talk for my liking but guess that's part of their living history through the language.

Snow Garden

Reati wrote: »

I said way back at the start Peig both linguisticly and content wise is a tough read in English let alone Irish. It really didn't do anyone any favors.

She did have a way with words though. Far too much God and Devil talk for my liking but guess that's part of their living history through the language.

I don't remember any of it to be honest. She lived on an island and I think a lot of her relations died by drowing but I might have that mixed up with some other island story. All I do remember is that it was bleak stuff and great to be able to cram it with the English version. This was in the 80s when we had no internet or bananas or pasta or café lattes or croque monsieurs etc

astrofool

Reati wrote: »

Welcome back! Thanks for wading in with more tired opinion again.

There is no apparently. The facts show they score higher.

I asked you already for proof Irish is marked easier if you are going to make that claim.

Anyway we're trying to move on to discuss revival I think now. I hope!

The fact that the average score is higher means it's being marked easier.

Unless you don't realise how exams get marked and marking schemes are created.

But, sure, pedal the line that people try harder in Irish, rather than any of the other subjects they take.

Crusty Jocks

Snow Garden wrote: »

I don't remember any of it to be honest. She lived on an island and I think a lot of her relations died by drowing but I might have that mixed up with some other island story. All I do remember is that it was bleak stuff and great to be able to cram it with the English version. This was in the 80s when we had no internet or bananas or pasta or café lattes or croque monsieurs etc

quit your moaning and thank your blessings you had no on demand porn during any exam period. I have used up my recommended lifetime **** quota to avoid prostate cancer on the few weeks before my first junior cert exam alone.

Snow Garden

Crusty Jocks wrote: »

quit your moaning and thank your blessings you had no on demand porn during any exam period. I have used up my recommended lifetime **** quota to avoid prostate cancer on the few weeks before my first junior cert exam alone.

We had some very hairy porn. Very hairy. I hope there's no revival for that.

We also had Christian brothers who wanted to bugger us, possibly as gaeilge. I was fast so they never caught me. I think. Might have blocked it out along with Peig.

BTW, its called the Inter Cert.

I could also kick off both feet.

Crusty Jocks

Snow Garden wrote: »

We had some very hairy porn. Very hairy.

We also had Christian brothers who wanted to bugger us, possibly as gaeilge. I was fast so they never caught me. I think. Might have blocked it out along with Peig.

BTW, its called the Inter Cert.

The aul Bráthair De Barra running after you with his love truncheon poking out of his black cape looking for some 'buaileadh craiceann'?

astrofool

I looked up the list of highest grades by subject, I'm guessing Reati is looking at an article from the Irish Times that lists Irish as the second easiest subject?

If the goal is maximum points, then Russian, followed by Latin, Music, Ancient Greek, Italian, Applied Maths (one that I did back in the day ) and agricultural economics all have higher average grades than Irish, Irish being below average for the highest grades this year.

https://careersportal.ie/school/lc_marks_distribution.php?ed_sub_cat_id=243#Subjects%20and%20Grades

Snow Garden

astrofool wrote: »

I looked up the list of highest grades by subject, I'm guessing Reati is looking at an article from the Irish Times that lists Irish as the second easiest subject?

If the goal is maximum points, then Russian, followed by Latin, Music, Ancient Greek, Italian, Applied Maths (one that I did back in the day ) and agricultural economics all have higher average grades than Irish, Irish being below average for the highest grades this year.

https://careersportal.ie/school/lc_marks_distribution.php?ed_sub_cat_id=243#Subjects%20and%20Grades

Wow, people do much better in Irish than English.
Nearly twice as many H1s and H2s in Irish.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

I wonder why.

astrofool

Snow Garden wrote: »

Wow, people do much better in Irish than English.
Nearly twice as many H1s and H2s in Irish.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

I wonder why.

Well, it clearly means, using statistics and facts and figures and all, that LC students are able to speak to each other better in Irish than in English, and we should start worrying about reviving the English language instead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

So we should do...?

As presented before:
1 - Set a time table of three years whereby the subject will become optional after junior cert. This gives the education board and interested parties a time-frame by which to make the subject interesting and get it to a point where people want to learn it. If you see this as makeing it "cool for skeptical teenagers" and have a problem with I'd have to ask why.
2 - Drop it as an exam subject (idea's not mine - was presented by iloveyourvibes. I didn't like it initially, but am warming to it now)
3 - Ask the students what they want. What would work for them. They ARE the target audience, after all. Again, if you have a problem with this (and bear in mind, I'm NOT saying let them set up the entire syallabus!) why?

No, you edited and add in the bold part.

If that's the case why does the quote in your post read "caught up with"? And why is there no edit history under mine?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?[/quote

Missed your edit. 'Afraid I asked first will happily answer next reply to you.

You asked second. But no matter, my ideas are listed above. Now again: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

Snow Garden

astrofool wrote: »

Well, it clearly means, using statistics and facts and figures and all, that LC students are able to speak to each other better in Irish than in English, and we should start worrying about reviving the English language instead.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

Yeah it certainly shows that Irish is graded much softer than English which doesn't surprise me to be honest. As I said before, the Irish lobby is extremely strong. I didn't think H1/H2s would be twice as frequent for Irish though - that's a considerable promotion. You would think the Dept of Education would investigate such an anomaly.

Hamsterchops

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

Reati

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

It means all marching on the Glorious 12th will need to be done through Irish.

ohnonotgmail

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

Only over the dead bodies of most of the DUP.

Reati

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Only over the dead bodies of most of the DUP.

The gas thing is a set of their ancestors were the saviours of the Irish language in a way. They took it, spoke it and preserved it before it become weaponized. I read a great book on it years ago that's name escapes me.

Edit: Found a article about it.
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/presbyterians-and-the-irish-language-roger-blaney-ulster-historical-foundationthe-ultach-trust-6-50-isbn-0-901905-75-5/