Irish language revival

ILoveYourVibes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If course a language is a living organism. It's alive not where two or more people congregate to speak it, and long may that continue. I'm all for policies that promote its use, because it is a language that is phonetically beautiful with a rich linguistic and literary identity. But I don't think it should be compulsory throughout the educational system.

But I care as much about forcing people to use it as I care about forcing people to engage with the works of Joyce or Rimbaud or Geri Haliwell, or any of the other greats. I don't get off on whether most of the Public engages with it or not, although I think it would we be well worth their time. That's all.

Neither am I.

What do you think of my other posts?

Anteayer

I think we need to look at what we are trying to achieve by teaching it the way we do. I would rather see Irish taught in a much more positive, fun and conservational way. It's absolutely destroyed by the dry way most of us are taught. Also most primary teachers don't seem to have very good Irish, so they teach it like Latin - a dry technical exercise. It might be better having an Irish language teacher in a primary school who went class to class, rather than a jack of all trades who doesn't really have much of a grasp of the language pretending that they do.

I think though in general Irish schools so a very poor job at teaching languages. We don't generally gain much ability to use French, German, Spanish etc and they're not started in primary school either which is very poor by European standards.

Also the comparison with Welsh is possibly unfair as there was a more active Welsh speaking community but also in Wales, because it's so lacking in genuine political independence, the language has become much more of a symbol of identity than Irish has and both even more so than Scots Gaelic / Gàighlig.

Hamsterchops

so this attempt to revive the Irish language has been ongoing since the 1930s, and we're still trying to find a way to revive it as our 1st spoken language, but still coming up short .....

Maybe we just don't want to speak it?

ILoveYourVibes

Anteayer wrote: »

I think we need to look at what we are trying to achieve by teaching it the way we do. I would rather see Irish taught in a much more positive, fun and conservational way. It's absolutely destroyed by the dry way most of us are taught. Also most primary teachers don't seem to have very good Irish, so they teach it like Latin - a dry technical exercise.

I think though in general Irish schools so a very poor job at teaching languages. We don't generally gain much ability to use French, Geeman, Spanish etc and they're not started in primary school either which is very poor by European standards.

Also the comparison with Welsh is possibly unfair as there was a more active Welsh speaking community but also in Wales, because it's so lacking in genuine political independence, the language has become much more of a symbol of identity than Irish has and both even more so than Scots Gaelic / Gàighlig.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/outrage-over-bbc-debate-asking-13458385

They have the exact same problems.

The census determined that 19.01% of the population could speak Welsh and 14.57% could speak, read and write in the language.


That is lower than us.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Neither am I.

What do you think of my other posts?

I think i agree with much of what you say, although I don't agree that Irish should be taught without examination. Then it just becomes like Transition Year, a programme where even the most able of students often see it as a doss. With the inevitable pressure on school-going students, investment in Irish education (by both students and schools) will be crowded out.

I think Irish should be entirely optional after the age of 12 or 15, and prior to that the focus should be on basic language skills (including grammar!), and thereafter let it be a literary pursuit like English.

I do agree with you that Gaeilgeoirí need Irish speakers, but that should happen organically by fostering the language in communities, especially in areas that are currently monolingual. Why are there not subsidised, or free, basic conversation classes in monolingual areas, for example?

I mentioned earlier that my own Dad only learned Irish after he retired, and I reckon lots of people at that stage of their lives would love to invest some time in improving their gcuid Gaeilge.

ILoveYourVibes

Hamsterchops wrote: »

so this attempt to revive the Irish language has been ongoing since the 1930s, and we're still trying to find a way to revive it as our 1st spoken language, but still coming up short .....

Maybe we just don't want to speak it?

EXACTLY THAT IS ALL IT IS WE DON'T WANT TO SPEAK IT

YOU ARE A GENIUS

THAT IS THE PROBLEM

SO THE SOLUTION IS YOU HAVE TO MAKE US WANT TO!

ILoveYourVibes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think i agree with much of what you say, although I don't agree that Irish should be taught without examination. Then it just becomes like Transition Year, a programme where even the most able of students often see it as a doss. With the inevitable pressure on school-going students, investment in Irish education will be crowded out.

I think Irish should be entirely optional after the age of 12 or 15, and prior to that the focus should be on basic language skills (including grammar!), and thereafter let it be a literary pursuit like English.

I do agree with you that Gaeilgeoirí need Irish speakers, but that should happen organically by fostering the language in communities, especially in areas that are currently monolingual. Why are there not subsidised, or free, basic conversation classes in monolingual areas, for example?

I mentioned earlier that my own Dad only learned Irish after he retired, and I reckon lots of people at that stage of their lives would love to invest some time in improving their gcuid Gaeilge.

You would kill it off entirely. I am telling you. In like 20 yrs. Fewer than 10% would take it.

janfebmar

Kids should not be forced to learn dead old languages which nobody speaks in real life (only a few posts a month are in Irish on boards.ie for example).

Hamsterchops

often wondered what percentage of people choose the Gaeilge option on bank cashpoint (ATM) machines?

would be interesting to see data on the figures.

d8491prj5boyvg

briany wrote: »

Welsh never died out to the same extent as Irish did. For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

By the early 20th century, Welsh was still spoken by about half the population of Wales, whereas Irish was already on life support in Ireland. The efforts to preserve Welsh started from a broader base and a viable community of speakers, while in Ireland, the language was ever more diminished by wave after wave of emigration, and the government making only a token effort to stop this.

DeValera wasn't at the treaty negotiations.

janfebmar

ATM machine transactions in Irish would probably be as low as the posts in the Irish language section on boards.ie
00.00001%

ILoveYourVibes

Hamsterchops wrote: »

often wondered what percentage of people choose the Gaeilge option on bank cashpoint (ATM) machines?

would be interesting to see data on the figures.

Less than 1%

And only 9000 complete the census in Irish.

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by briany View Post
Welsh never died out to the same extent as Irish did. For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

By the early 20th century, Welsh was still spoken by about half the population of Wales, whereas Irish was already on life support in Ireland. The efforts to preserve Welsh started from a broader base and a viable community of speakers, while in Ireland, the language was ever more diminished by wave after wave of emigration, and the government making only a token effort to stop this.

Once again Irish now has a higher percentage of Irish speakers than wales has welsh speakers.

We are more successful at getting people to speak our language than they are theirs.

21.4% ( and that is the LOWEST possible there are probably more) Irish speakers versus 19% welsh speakers (and that is the HIGHEST possible and according to info they cannot write in Welsh).

Snow Garden

Hamsterchops wrote: »

often wondered what percentage of people choose the Gaeilge option on bank cashpoint (ATM) machines?

would be interesting to see data on the figures.

I am sure some do it to look cool

Franz Von Peppercorn II

astrofool wrote: »

I'm flat out saying that the marks achieved in Irish are due to a desire to inflate the grades and keep it attractive as a subject for students, who would drop it in a second were it not for it's compulsory nature.

As you asked, not that it's relevant, I studied 8 subjects at hons level, used 4 of them directly during uni and then work, and use three more indirectly through daily life, take a wild guess which the odd one out is.

Good for you. However Education is not vocational training.

(And you could use Irish if you cared to of course).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Please do not do this. I appreciate the sentiment.

But think about it....if you give someone an opportunity to drop something JUST after the first state exam they ever have they WILL drop it.

Think about this and ask yourself.... why?

Solution Irish revolution ..get rid of exams in Irish.

They HAVE to learn it ..but there are NO exams. You are NEVER tested not even in primary school in Irish.

Think about it.

My point is that there is that most students are learning it for the wrong reason. Your point is to make them learn it for NO reason.

Ultimately, you will have the same issue: wasted time and no desire to speak it after they leave school.

There has to be a reason, and - just as importantly - it has to be the right reson.

It sets in the right value space. Its about community and culture. You are not judged on what you get.

So as a subject its compulsory ..but you take no exams ...and no homework.
Here is your slogan.
'Irish ...IS A JOURNEY. Not a destination'

YOUR culture and community, perhaps - but teenagers have vastly different cultures and communities to that.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Also be honest with kids.

They don't need to learn Irish for any reason practical or spiritual.and they don't want to on the whole.........however the language and it's community in this country NEED THEM to learn it. Tell them that its reason enough.

That's abusive. Teenage students are not there to be used as tools to further someone else's agenda.

Its ok to need people. Gaelgoirs NEED people to learn and be interested in Irish. They do whatever they say ..THEY DO.

Maybe kids might find that alone compelling.

Its nice to be needed.

Needing something from someone does not mean they HAVE to give it to you, and nor does it give YOU the right to forcefully take it from them.

This just sounds arrogant: it's important to you and to your community, therefore everyone has to give...?

And you expect this to graner respect and create a revival...?

Franz Von Peppercorn II

If this anti Irish policy, which is so popular on the internet, were widely popular then where are the politicans advocating for it?

As I’ve said before this would probably need a constitutional change.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Once again Irish now has a higher percentage of Irish speakers than wales has welsh speakers.

We are more successful at getting people to speak our language than they are theirs.

21.4% ( and that is the LOWEST possible there are probably more) Irish speakers versus 19% welsh speakers (and that is the HIGHEST possible and according to info they cannot write in Welsh).

To be fair that’s probably nonsense. People really do speak Welsh in Wales, people just say they do here. That said it shows there’s a desire to learn the language rather than ban it.

Snow Garden

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

If this anti Irish policy, which is so popular on the internet, were widely popular then where are the politicans advocating for it?

As I’ve said before this would probably need a constitutional change.

Don't be under any illusions - there is a massive Irish language lobby in Ireland. They are very powerful and vocal. Big money and grants being made to 'promote' the Irish language. Very few will speak against that lobby and get away with it.

Money talks

ILoveYourVibes

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

To be fair that’s probably nonsense. People really do speak Welsh in Wales, people just say they do here. That said it shows there’s a desire to learn the language rather than ban it.

Umkay no idea how many actually speak it here. I have only heard it once outside of school in my life time.

Stop moaning ffs

Slightly tangential but it came up earlier. Lovely video about the GAA and growing diversity in Ireland

https://youtu.be/ex78dBceVV8

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Snow Garden wrote: »

Don't be under any illusions - there is a massive Irish language lobby in Ireland. They are very powerful and vocal. Big money and grants being made to 'promote' the Irish language. Very few will speak against that lobby and get away with it.

Money talks

A few government grants isn’t Big Money.

And by and large people protest about paying more taxes - see the water charges. Big money involved there, for real.

Yet there has never been any politican, even a local politician who has run on this platform and we’ve seen local politicans run on many single issues like pot holes, access to British TV and many other things.

Reati

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

A few government grants isn’t Big Money.

Its amazing how this thread (and conversation in general) goes around in circles. I gave figures for how much the government spends on Irish each year. I break down the cost to education budget (albeit a best guessimate) yet here we are again with another clever poster taking about the big big money the all powerful Irish language lobby gets.

I've been wrong in my career. I really may quit my boring office job, move into teaching Irish in a Gaelscoil in the Gaeltacht while doing some translation on the side. Can't wait to be given my gold plated house and endless grants.

Snow Garden

Reati wrote: »

Its amazing how this thread (and conversation in general) goes around in circles. I gave figures for how much the government spends on Irish each year. I break down the cost to education budget (albeit a best guessimate) yet here we are again with another clever poster taking about the big big money the all powerful Irish language lobby gets.

I've been wrong in my career. I really may quit my boring office job, move into teaching Irish in a Gaelscoil in the Gaeltacht while doing some translation on the side. Can't wait to be given my gold plated house and endless grants.

No no, that's for little people. The clever ones go to places like Udaras or Udaras funded/incentivised businesses to make easy money. Or Brussels.

Reati

Snow Garden wrote: »

No no, that's for little people. The clever ones go to places like Udaras or Udaras funded/incentivised businesses to make easy money. Or Brussels.

Awesome. Can't wait. Which jobs should I focus on and how much money will I get?

janfebmar

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Umkay no idea how many actually speak it here. I have only heard it once outside of school in my life time.

Once is more than many other people heard it.

ILoveYourVibes

janfebmar wrote: »

Once is more than many other people heard it.

I suppose.

It was at my Dentists weirdly. It was a Grandad to his Grandaughter.

James Brown

You can make the same argument against Irish as you can the arts, museums, art galleries etc. There comes a point when you have to ask yourself are we only about money and if so to what end? Yes less money to Irish could be better spent elsewhere, but it doesn't work like that. The policy makers have a view on how certain things are run and funded. No money going to the Irish language just means more money to waste on ill-thought out sh*te.
They are quite content with the myriad crises ticking along nicely, as borne out by sticking to policies that exacerbate them.
Culture is something worth spending money on even if it's some stupid art installation I don't get or like.

cj maxx

It’s probably been mentioned but the way Irish is taught in school is awful. We have all grabbed the basics of the grammar in national school and all we get fed in secondary school is peig and more ****e.
No conversational Irish or buying stuff , getting directions etc . Most people I know have said they knew more useful french / German than Irish when they left school.. when I did my leaving if I was dropped in the Gaeltacht I couldn’t have looked for food or directions and I still got a B at pass level
Conversational Irish and repetition would make it easier to go into somewhere , shop , pub whatever and ask for stuff in Irish and meaning more places would have staff to reciprocate.

Reati

cjmc wrote: »

It’s probably been mentioned but the way Irish is taught in school is awful. We have all grabbed the basics of the grammar in national school and all we get fed in secondary school is peig and more ****e.
No conversational Irish or buying stuff , getting directions etc . Most people I know have said they knew more useful french / German than Irish when they left school.. when I did my leaving if I was dropped in the Gaeltacht I couldn’t have looked for food or directions and I still got a B at pass level
Conversational Irish and repetition would make it easier to go into somewhere , shop , pub whatever and ask for stuff in Irish and meaning more places would have staff to reciprocate.

This myth has been covered and debunked at length.