Fine Gael TD sues Dublin Hotel after falling off swing

Yurt2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This 'sending a message' syndrome is just a childish lashout though. You must vote for the best available, and curb any frustration and desire to vote for lesser candidates just to 'punish' the best you've got. It's silly. It's the syndrome that brings, Trump, Brexit, and flirting with national front type nonsense.
Resist anti-voting. Vote responsibly. Vote correctly. Don't make things worse by voting for independents who just screw up the workings of politics.

I won't dispute that the standard of our political class is low, but some of the grandest morons to spring forth from this soil manage to carve out high-level political careers in parties through patronage and having a brass neck. People like Mary Mitchell O'Connor make me want to weep they're so thick. You wouldn't put a person like that in charge of a tuck shop, never mind a government department. The only conceivable reason she landed in Leinster House, and frighteningly, in a ministerial post, is under the political sponsorship of a party.

This is not competence, you know it, I know it, and everybody who's reading this knows it.

hatrickpatrick

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This 'sending a message' syndrome is just a childish lashout though. You must vote for the best available, and curb any frustration and desire to vote for lesser candidates just to 'punish' the best you've got. It's silly. It's the syndrome that brings, Trump, Brexit, and flirting with national front type nonsense.
Resist anti-voting. Vote responsibly. Vote correctly. Don't make things worse by voting for independents who just screw up the workings of politics.

The very reason to vote independents is because they screw up the workings of politics. The workings of politics are utterly broken in the current status quo, as evidenced by this and many other issues and incidents. Politics, and how we do politics in Ireland, needs to change.

Also, if people are voting to "send a message" as you put it, it means they're voting that way because they disagree with how a politician has behaved or which policy ideals that politician represents. Surely that's the very core of democracy?

Kivaro

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The very reason to vote independents is because they screw up the workings of politics. The workings of politics are utterly broken in the current status quo, as evidenced by this and many other issues and incidents. Politics, and how we do politics in Ireland, needs to change.

Also, if people are voting to "send a message" as you put it, it means they're voting that way because they disagree with how a politician has behaved or which policy ideals that politician represents. Surely that's the very core of democracy?

It's called disruption Pat.
And it's a good thing in a very stale environment; any environment, whether it is in business, education, ........ or politics.

hatrickpatrick

I've just finished plotting out my ballot paper before going to the polls later and I have to say, the Dun Laoghaire ward is a feckin' nightmare this time around with a ridiculously low candidate to seat ratio - just 13 candidates vying for 7 seats! Very hard to avoid gobsh!tes getting in with this scenario. John Bailey's getting my #13 anyway, although in fairness FG were always going to be bottom of the pile in this election for me so it's not a big change.

How's everyone else's ballot plotting going?

lawred2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This 'sending a message' syndrome is just a childish lashout though. You must vote for the best available, and curb any frustration and desire to vote for lesser candidates just to 'punish' the best you've got. It's silly. It's the syndrome that brings, Trump, Brexit, and flirting with national front type nonsense.
Resist anti-voting. Vote responsibly. Vote correctly. Don't make things worse by voting for independents who just screw up the workings of politics.

Forgive me if I've conflated you with someone else but I'm sure that you're pro Brexit?

VinLieger

Kivaro wrote: »

It's called disruption Pat.
And it's a good thing in a very stale environment; any environment, whether it is in business, education, ........ or politics.

Disruption is good when its being performed by people who are more competant than those that need to be disrupted, many of the gombeens people are voting for as protest votes are at least as bad as our current politicians if not worse, ie gemma, gilroy, casey et al, they are either conspiracy theorists, freemen wackjobs or self interested trumpesque business men.

Im by no means saying FG are worth a vote right now, ive voted for them up until now but am seriously conflicted at the moment. I didnt vote for them in europe today due to article 13 and i really don't know what im going to do for the next GE. I did throw 1-2 votes for local FGers thought as they do good work in my constituency, I even voted for 1 FFer (first time ever i think) as they are the one candidate dealing with a specific issue i feel strongly on.

Hoboo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've just finished plotting out my ballot paper before going to the polls later and I have to say, the Dun Laoghaire ward is a feckin' nightmare this time around with a ridiculously low candidate to seat ratio - just 13 candidates vying for 7 seats! Very hard to avoid gobsh!tes getting in with this scenario. John Bailey's getting my #13 anyway, although in fairness FG were always going to be bottom of the pile in this election for me so it's not a big change.

How's everyone else's ballot plotting going?

Don't give 1-13, just vote for your top 3 or 4. It might be 13, but it's still a vote.

ILoveYourVibes

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This 'sending a message' syndrome is just a childish lashout though. You must vote for the best available, and curb any frustration and desire to vote for lesser candidates just to 'punish' the best you've got. It's silly. It's the syndrome that brings, Trump, Brexit, and flirting with national front type nonsense.
Resist anti-voting. Vote responsibly. Vote correctly. Don't make things worse by voting for independents who just screw up the workings of politics.

May I ask you if you support FG?

Why not vote FF?

McMurphy

lawred2 wrote: »

Forgive me if I've conflated you with someone else but I'm sure that you're pro Brexit?

He's vehemently Pro/Anti many things.

It just depends what thread he does dip into, and what he thinks will wind the majority up the most with.


He's a wee rascal at the trolling so he is.

**Ruffles TRoLs hair**

salmocab

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've just finished plotting out my ballot paper before going to the polls later and I have to say, the Dun Laoghaire ward is a feckin' nightmare this time around with a ridiculously low candidate to seat ratio - just 13 candidates vying for 7 seats! Very hard to avoid gobsh!tes getting in with this scenario. John Bailey's getting my #13 anyway, although in fairness FG were always going to be bottom of the pile in this election for me so it's not a big change.

How's everyone else's ballot plotting going?

If you give him 13 your giving him a possible vote. You don’t have to go all the way down the sheet, you can stop at any time

JohnnyFlash

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've just finished plotting out my ballot paper before going to the polls later and I have to say, the Dun Laoghaire ward is a feckin' nightmare this time around with a ridiculously low candidate to seat ratio - just 13 candidates vying for 7 seats! Very hard to avoid gobsh!tes getting in with this scenario. John Bailey's getting my #13 anyway, although in fairness FG were always going to be bottom of the pile in this election for me so it's not a big change.

How's everyone else's ballot plotting going?

FG 1 and 2, Labour 3 and Greens 4. Don’t bother with the rest of the alphabet. Voted at quarter past 7 this morning

I’ll vote the exact same later when I head down to the home place.

hatrickpatrick

Hoboo wrote: »

Don't give 1-13, just vote for your top 3 or 4. It might be 13, but it's still a vote.

Common misconception - if you do this, then every candidate after your top 3 or 4 (assuming all of your top choices don't get in, which requires a lot of luck but does happen) has a reduced quota to get elected on whichever count your vote runs out of numbers on. So if there are one or two people you truly despise, it really is better to vote all the way down and give them the last numbers. If you despise everyone equally after a certain point, you're absolutely right. But in this particular case, I want to see John Bailey getting his f*cking ass kicked, and if someone from FG is going to get in, I'd rather it be either of the other two candidates.

The quota is calculated based on the total number of valid ballots on each count. If you're on the sixth count and you only put down six numbers, then assuming none of your six are still in contention (either already elected or already eliminated), your vote stops being counted as a "valid ballot" once you get to the seventh count.

Not a huge issue on an individual basis, but definitely a huge issue if enough people do it, which unfortunately seems to be the case. I've always thought that the quota system we use should be taught as part of CSPE or something, I only know about it because my dad used to cover the elections for RTE back in the '90s and thus he's something of a political encyclopedia for this kind of stuff

hatrickpatrick

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I’ll vote the exact same later when I head down to the home place.

Yurt2

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

FG 1 and 2, Labour 3 and Greens 4. Don’t bother with the rest of the alphabet. Voted at quarter past 7 this morning

I’ll vote the exact same later when I head down to the home place.

Out of curiosity, is it actually legal to vote in two different wards in local elections?

If you pick up two referendum ballots and use them, you'd almost certainly be voting unlawfully.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've just finished plotting out my ballot paper before going to the polls later and I have to say, the Dun Laoghaire ward is a feckin' nightmare this time around with a ridiculously low candidate to seat ratio - just 13 candidates vying for 7 seats! Very hard to avoid gobsh!tes getting in with this scenario. John Bailey's getting my #13 anyway, although in fairness FG were always going to be bottom of the pile in this election for me so it's not a big change.

How's everyone else's ballot plotting going?

Try Dundalk. 2 areas. One is 9 candidates for 6 seats, Other is 11 for 7 seats.
Dundalk North is 3 FF, 3 SF, 2 FG 1 GP. Pretty dire.

The Rape of Lucretia

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

May I ask you if you support FG?

Why not vote FF?

Both equally. They are the same party. So both at the top of the ballot paper according to my view of the individual. Labour next. Greens next. Indos next. IRA last.
This is the correct answer to the test.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've always thought that the quota system we use should be taught as part of CSPE or something,

The electoral quota was taught in CSPE when I was in school, I hope it's still taught today.

I think most schools do mock elections, where they learn how to calculate the quota, and how to apply it to a count.

Scoundrel

Hopefully the actions of this money grabbing fraudster will lead to a swing against FG today.

jmayo

Birneybau wrote: »

Sure, she's from a family with necks like jockey's bollockses. This is part of the index for her father's Wikipedia entry:

Peruse at your own will, I take no responsibility for raised blood pressure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bailey_(Irish_politician)

Jaysus I didn't know the family history. I was right, complete fooking chancers.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This kind of thing is actually why I've never liked him. Kenny was hopeless at PR and somehow when Leo came in, even more sh!t hit the fan and made you actually miss Kenny to an extent.

Kenny was underrated.
Yes he was shyte in media and I do hold him to account for not moving sooner on Callinan - whole Garda thing, Irish water setup debacle and ethnic status for another bunch of chancers, but he wasn't all about the spin like the current gobshyte.

Kenny was totally on the ropes when most of the cabinet and front bench moved against him.
The same ones that are now at the top of the party.
And he handed them their ar**es.
That says something about the calibre of people we are talking about.

Leo made pronouncements about looking after the early risers, the ordinary workers and what has he gone and done since.
He is more interested in photo ops, playing at being a mini me of that Canadian spanner than actually doing anything meaningful.
Every time there is major wastage of money, huge cost overruns, he just glosses if off and boldy states that they will find the money no problem.

Yeah sure he comes across a lot better on TV, but it is image over substance.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's like Eoghan Murphy's reaction to the Tenement 2.0 proposal for Dun Laoghaire - the fact that he's reacting the way he is despite very clear and widespread public anger over that case and the housing situation in general, is indicative of either (a) FG not actually listening to the public's mood or to public opinion, or (b) FG not giving a f*ck about the public's mood or opinion, despite their job literally being to represent the people when making policy decisions.

Speaking of that eejit Murphy, just listened to guy representing petrol filling stations on radio with Pat Kenny.
The valuation office has decided that filling station rates, and it is only filling stations, will now be based on turnover.
Now I have no love for prices filling stations charge on convenience articles but this is joke and will probably result in rate increases of over 100% and put a fair few out of business.

Turnover for filling stations can be huge, but just remember 60% of fuel prices already goes in taxes to the government.

The genius that came up with the formula based it on extensive analysis of 6 filling stations in Tipperary.
I kid you not and valuation office will not budge.

And the gobshyte in charge of that organisation is none other than Murphy who claims it has nothing to do with him.

Now this is yet another example of how fooked up this country is when someone comes up with a very flawed proposal and no one in power is willing to cop on and stop it.

hatrickpatrick

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Both equally. They are the same party. So both at the top of the ballot paper according to my view of the individual.

Astonishing - TRoL speaking the truth!

This can only mean one thing: Winter is coming.

Yurt2

jmayo wrote: »

Kenny was underrated.
Yes he was shyte in media and I do hold him to account for not moving sooner on Callinan - whole Garda thing, Irish water setup debacle and ethnic status for another bunch of chancers, but he wasn't all about the spin like the current gobshyte.

Kenny was totally on the ropes when most of the cabinet and front bench moved against him.
The same ones that are now at the top of the party.
And he handed them their ar**es.
That says something about the calibre of people we are talking about.

Leo made pronouncements about looking after the early risers, the ordinary workers and what has he gone and done since.
He is more interested in photo ops, playing at being a mini me of that Canadian spanner than actually doing anything meaningful.
Every time there is major wastage of money, huge cost overruns, he just glosses if off and boldy states that they will find the money no problem.

Yeah sure he comes across a lot better on TV, but it is image over substance.

Kenny will never be rated as an all-time-great Taoiseach, but apparently, he was an extremely tough customer. From what I've heard from people who have worked in proximity to him throughout the years, if you crossed him - be it 20 minutes or 20 years ago - he'd never forget it. He'd keep you close if you were useful, but your card was marked from then on. I guess you pick up a few tricks being in Leinster House for 40+ years.

Not his biggest fan, and I don't think he had any grand ideas to address some fundamental problems we have in the country, but he obviously knew how to marshall a cabinet.

hatrickpatrick

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The electoral quota was taught in CSPE when I was in school, I hope it's still taught today.

I think most schools do mock elections, where they learn how to calculate the quota, and how to apply it to a count.

Wow, I'm fairly certain we never went into that kind of detail - we learned it on the more vague "you rank the candidates in the order of who you like the most to the least", but the actual mathematics of what comes afterwards wasn't really gone into as far as I can remember. Of course, it may simply have been that I was dossing at the time. As a political junkie since the age of 7 or 8, I'm pretty sure I would remember this as I'd have feckin' loved doing a mock election in school! I did miss a large swathe of both 4th and 5th year due to medical issues, so maybe we did it in one of those years.

Among people I know, and many of these would be extremely well educated folks with a huge interest in current affairs and politics, people seem to understand the American Electoral College system more thoroughly than they understand our own PR-STV system. This has led to repeated media debates in recent years as to whether we should simplify it, which in my view would be a real shame - it's a beautiful system of electing candidates, it just needs a bit of extra instruction in order to understand it.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

.

Among people I know, and many of these would be extremely well educated folks with a huge interest in current affairs and politics, people seem to understand the American Electoral College system more thoroughly than they understand our own PR-STV system. This has led to repeated media debates in recent years as to whether we should simplify it, which in my view would be a real shame - it's a beautiful system of electing candidates, it just needs a bit of extra instruction in order to understand it.

I think I only remember it because I fancied the civics teacher. But it is indeed a beautiful system. I knew the Brits were losing their marbles when they rejected preferential voting in 2011.

Even if some people don't know how the quota is calculated, the main thing, as you say, is to enter all preferences right until the end.

And vote!

The Rape of Lucretia

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I
And vote!

Correctly!

And no self indulgent cutting off your nose to spite you face protest voting. That just delivers the dregs to power.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Correctly!

And no self indulgent cutting off your nose to spite you face protest voting. That just delivers the dregs to power.

So, Workers' Party?

Got it.

Yurt2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Correctly!

And no self indulgent cutting off your nose to spite you face protest voting. That just delivers the dregs to power.

There's an argument to be made we're dealing with the dregs as it stands. I rate two members of the cabinet as capable at handling their brief - the rest are no-hopers and chancers, led around by the nose by senior civil servants and their media advisors, reading from speeches written by others put under their nose. There's also very little talent in the FG parliamentary party waiting in the wings. We'd be getting an extremely poor return from our political system voting as you suggest.

JohnnyFlash

Yurt! wrote: »

Out of curiosity, is it actually legal to vote in two different wards in local elections?

If you pick up two referendum ballots and use them, you'd almost certainly be voting unlawfully.

I don’t know why I get two voting cards. One is in Dublin and the other is down the sticks. I suppose I’ve just gotten used to voting twice at this stage. Pay enough fricking tax anyway to deserve a 2nd.

padd b1975

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Even if some people don't know how the quota is calculated, the main thing, as you say, is to enter all preferences right until the end.

I don't agree with this at all.

If you don't like the candidate, don't give them any preference whatsoever.
Because if they manage to avoid elimination, that #7 or #8 becomes the same value as a #1.

Yurt2

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don’t know why I get two voting cards. One is in Dublin and the other is down the sticks. I suppose I’ve just gotten used to voting twice at this stage. Pay enough fricking tax anyway to deserve a 2nd.

No you don't. One man one vote. That's democracy.

kenmc

So the next question is when will we know the results. Eu can't be announced til Sunday I think I read, so all other countries can get theirs done too. Referendum first I guess, as it's a binary choice so easiest to do? Then we see how much damage the tennements2.0 policy and the swing state has done to fine gale. Plenty, hopefully.