How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You see no irony in it whatsoever?
Fair enough. If you do not want to acknowledge the cognitive dissonance of ROI republicans saying 'we' for British teams and being immersed in British culture that is up to you. But that is the life of most 'republicans' I have met from Dublin.
It might as well be a biker gang they are voting for as far as they are concerned. They are just compensating and looking for a sense of belonging. Their Irishness has long gone.
Lines on a map gives them something to pretend to be Irish over.

How is 'following a British football team' a sign that you 'are immersed in British culture'?

If you follow an Italian team or Spanish one as many do, are you 'immersed' in Italian or Spanish culture?

What are you on about? Culture is more than a newspaper or football team.
The truth here is you haven't a clue what culture is, so how would you recognise it?
Your pathetic attempt to define a unique Unionist culture is more evidence if this.

Most SF ROI republicans would like increased social welfare and loads of social housing and so on. It is one the main reasons they vote SF. With the promise that taxing the rich will solve everything.

SF don't own Irish Unification.

jm08

20-30 years

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You mentioned Irish race. There is no Irish race.

What is there then?

Is there a point here because one was formed on the back of an Irish American, and the other is an aging Trad band.

Flatley is as Irish, as Wellington was British! Personally, I think its Bill Whelan's music that makes Riverdance.

In my view Ola Majekodunmi is much more of an Irish person than many of these faux ROI working class republicans I have seen in Dublin.

Are there degrees of Irishness?

Why?
Because she has not politicized the Irish language like SF have tried to do in NI. Which was disgusting in my view
She is immersed in Irish culture, and her sense of Irishness in not based on the removal of a line on a map in Ulster.

Ola lives in a place that provides an opportunity to learn the Irish language and immerse herself in Irish culture. Would she get that opportunity if living in Northern Ireland?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The outright refusal by Unionism, (who stamp their feet about going out of alignment with the UK in other matters) to accord the Irish language the same status as other languages in the UK, is what politicised it.

Come on it was a game. Michelle O'Neill and Gerry Kelly and the like hardly a word of Irish between them.
Foster made the very valid point about Polish I remember.

Plus rather than actually use the Irish language as a real language of communication it only gets used symbolically (for the most part) by SF.

So what sense of Irishness is left to give out about a flag or line on a map?
Pathetic.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Come on it was a game. Michelle O'Neill and Gerry Kelly and the like hardly a word of Irish between them.
Foster made the very valid point about Polish I remember.

Plus rather than actually use the Irish language as a real language of communication it only gets used symbolically (for the most part) by SF.

So what sense of Irishness is left to give out about a flag or line on a map?
Pathetic.

No surprise you have a onesided view.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How is 'following a British football team' a sign that you 'are immersed in British culture'?

If you follow an Italian team or Spanish one as many do, are you 'immersed' in Italian or Spanish culture?

Of course it is ROI working class people particularly identify with this aspect of British culture.

The Spanish and Italian support is a by product of supporting thier main British team. But most do not learn Spanish or Italian and immerse in thier media as a result of such support. It just goes as far as a brand name unlike the English/Brit teams.

What are you on about? Culture is more than a newspaper or football team.
The truth here is you haven't a clue what culture is, so how would you recognise it?
Your pathetic attempt to define a unique Unionist culture is more evidence if this.

It is the basis of culture if pastimes and media are foreign - that means the mindset of those immersed in it, is to the detriment of thier lost culture.

Changing a line on a map will not free such minds.

Currently Unionists can read in thier own language - the language of the mainland.
They can read British papers and hear their British queen speak thier language.
Representing thier religion. In the UK.

SF don't own Irish Unification.

No, but they appropriated it. Much as they have done with the tricolour and it is also the reason many do not wear the fainne. Because SF sullied it with negative connotations.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

The polls have been done. The fact you don't like that one of the things agreed upon is likely to happen is immaterial.

Quite my whole postbirvdin quite me at all.
I put up the results of the most recent poll I could find which was the Belfast Telegraph pole and it only had 29% in favour of a UI.

FrancieBrady wrote:

If you want to change the GFA, then work away at finding political representation to achieve that. Then you'll need another referendum to change the GFA terms.

I wasn't talking about the GFA and I made it very clear that I was after information. If the information leads us to believe that the GFA does not suit the people of Northern Ireland then it has to be changed.
Just so you know, if you part quote me again our conversations are over as I'm putting you on ignore. Have a bit of respect for other posters and quote them in full.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course it is ROI working class people particularly identify with this aspect of British culture.

The Spanish and Italian support is a by product of supporting thier main British team. But most do not learn Spanish or Italian and immerse in thier media as a result of such support. It just goes as far as a brand name unlike the English/Brit teams.

People of all ages and classes watch football. Why does that mean the 'are immersed in British culture'? Please explain this.

It is the basis of culture if pastimes and media are foreign - that means the mindset of those immersed in it, to the detriment of thier lost culture.

Changing a line on a map will not free such minds.

Unionists can read in thier own language the language of the mainland.
They can read British papers and here a British queen speak thier language.

Bully for them.

Have you ever given any thought to why British people see no commonality with those Unionists in the north?
Why poll after poll shows that they have diverged away from them a long time ago and why when they did their little deal with The Tories, the trending topic on Google was 'Who are the DUP'?

That would be because some Unionists 'Britishness' comes from an era similar to the one where you think Irish culture stopped and judge it from.

No, but they appropriated it. Much as they have done with the tricolour and it is also the reason many do not wear the fainne. Because SF sullied it with negative connotations.

But they don't own it, the conversation about a UI involves everybody on this island. And everyone from the last two Taosigh to the Unity Unit proposed by the putative coalition is thinking about it and it's possibilities.

You can continue to live in denial about that, partitionists are part of our culture too.

jm08

20-30 years

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course it is ROI working class people particularly identify with this aspect of British culture.

The Spanish and Italian support is a by product of supporting thier main British team. But most do not learn Spanish or Italian and immerse in thier media as a result of such support. It just goes as far as a brand name unlike the English/Brit teams.

It is the basis of culture if pastimes and media are foreign - that means the mindset of those immersed in it, is to the detriment of thier lost culture.

Changing a line on a map will not free such minds.

Currently Unionists can read in thier own language - the language of the mainland.
They can read British papers and hear their British queen speak thier language.
Representing thier religion. In the UK.

No, but they appropriated it. Much as they have done with the tricolour and it is also the reason many do not wear the fainne. Because SF sullied it with negative connotations.

I'd say that there are a fair few working class Dubs that support GAA as well as maybe supporting an English/Scottish soccer team.


How could they have appropriated their own flag? Thats the first I've heard about the fainne!

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

Quite my whole postbirvdin quite me at all.
I put up the results of the most recent poll I could find which was the Belfast Telegraph pole and it only had 29% in favour of a UI.

Did you read the question?

If there was a border poll tomorrow, how would you vote?

Even I don't think the time is right yet, there needs to be a lot of work done to ensure a poll has all the information people need to make a decision. This is not the UK.

I wasn't talking about the GFA and I made it very clear that I was after information. If the information leads us to believe that the GFA does not suit the people of Northern Ireland then it has to be changed.
Just so you know, if you part quote me again our conversations are over as I'm putting you on ignore. Have a bit of respect for other posters and quote them in full.

Like everyone else on these forums I will quote the relevant part of what you say.

And you never addressed the fact that you have to change the GFA if you want another poll on an independent NI. That nobody politically has asked for. How do you intend to do that?

gormdubhgorm

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say that there are a fair few working class Dubs that support GAA as well as maybe supporting an English/Scottish soccer team.


How could they have appropriated their own flag? Thats the first I've heard about the fainne!

The majority of working class Dublin is soccer is no1. They might come out during the summer and support the Dubs. Many of the big Dublin clubs are now in middle class areas.
There is the odd exception like Ballymun - but that is more of a Parish feel a one off.

I remember one auld Dub commenting on the 70's Dublin footballers. They were not real Dubs. Because they were doctors and solicitors!

How have SF appropriated the tricolour? You only have to see who waved the tricolour in the election centres during the GE.

If anyone put up a tricolour (when the ROI soccer team is not playing) in Dublin working class area it is a clear sign they are 'an IRA/republican head'.

jm08

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

Quite my whole postbirvdin quite me at all.
I put up the results of the most recent poll I could find which was the Belfast Telegraph pole and it only had 29% in favour of a UI.

The problem with polls in Northern Ireland is that they are very unreliable because there is still fear about speaking out by people. For example, someone from a nationalist family may want NI to remain in the UK, but their family might not agree with them. Similarly with those from unionist families. Thats why no one will every really know what people think outside the secrecy of the ballot box.

Kaybaykwah

This language problem is something that certainly restricts the concept of nationality in Ireland since the nineteenth century saw the Irish language almost erased by English schooling. I am pretty ambivalent about strict notions of language. I obviously don't have the knowledge to
be able to appreciate Brian O'Nolan's mastery of the Irish language in the 20th century, on the other hand, I can appreciate his mastery of English. Luckily, Ireland has contributed plenty to the general culture of not only the anglosphere, but world culture.

The many languages in France were swiftly stamped out by Parisian elites, with the same zeal dealt languages and customs in their colonies, but with more effect on the National territory.

We have to look at post-colonial legacies in terms of adaptability, inventiveness, and cross-fertilization for lack of better by the colonized populations. Ireland managed to enrich itself as a country and is in an enviable position now, nimble because not too big, close to the UK, and prosperous because of linkage that has been more beneficial than many other European countries.

The French language in Quebec, as the centre of cultural life, and aspirations, was the main point of contention when two progressive laws decided on its primacy in the workplace, in signage and education. When I was a tot in the sixties, many of the signs and commercial communications were in English in spite of the population being overwhelmingly francophone; an aberration. When the second, more definitive law passed, part of the anglo elite decided, to leave for Toronto, and along with it, many company HQs. Toronto got to profit from this wholesale move, and the anglo press was condescending toward Quebec, as per usual.

Since the question of language supremacy has been resolved, the social climate has become so much better, and even business is better, the playing field allows for the French elite to thrive, and gives ample space to the anglo culture in its midst to thrive as well. I don't want to imagine my country any other way than what it has become, and certainly not go back to the way things were.

I don't know how the actual language status in Ireland can bring about this kind of change, because the numbers aren't quite the same as here. On the other hand, an ancient culture with strong contemporary educational attainments just creates more possibilities for reinvention.

That doesn't answer the cultural/mental divide between the unionists and republicans and all those in between.

jm08

20-30 years

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The majority of working class Dublin is soccer is no1. They might come out during the summer and support the Dubs. Many of the big Dublin clubs are now in middle class areas.
There is the odd exception like Ballymun - but that is more of a Parish feel a one off.

What about O'Tooles - doesn't that cater for places like Darndale?

I remember one auld Dub commenting on the 70's Dublin footballers. They were not real Dubs. Because they were doctors and solicitors!

Inverted snobbery!

How have SF appropriated the tricolour? You only have to see who waved the tricolour in the election centres during the GE.

If anyone put up a tricolour (when the ROI soccer team is not playing) in Dublin working class area it is a clear sign they are 'an IRA/republican head'.

Dear god, you have a problem with someone waving a tricolour at an election count in an Irish election?


In fairness, you don't see that many tricolours flying in Ireland. You will get some shock when you go to the States and see how many have US flags flying!

FrancieBrady

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

This language problem is something that certainly restricts the concept of nationality in Ireland since the nineteenth century saw the Irish language almost erased by English schooling. I am pretty ambivalent about strict notions of language. I obviously don't have the knowledge to
be able to appreciate Brian O'Nolan's mastery of the Irish language in the 20th century, on the other hand, I can appreciate his mastery of English. Luckily, Ireland has contributed plenty to the general culture of not only the anglosphere, but world culture.

The many languages in France were swiftly stamped out by Parisian elites, with the same zeal dealt languages and customs in their colonies, but with more effect on the National territory.

We have to look at post-colonial legacies in terms of adaptability, inventiveness, and cross-fertilization for lack of better by the colonized populations. Ireland managed to enrich itself as a country and is in an enviable position now, nimble because not too big, close to the UK, and prosperous because of linkage that has been more beneficial than many other European countries.

The French language in Quebec, as the centre of cultural life, and aspirations, was the main point of contention when two progressive laws decided on its primacy in the workplace, in signage and education. When I was a tot in the sixties, many of the signs and commercial communications were in English in spite of the population being overwhelmingly francophone; an aberration. When the second, more definitive law passed, part of the anglo elite decided, to leave for Toronto, and along with it, many company HQs. Toronto got to profit from this wholesale move, and the anglo press was condescending toward Quebec, as per usual.

Since the question of language supremacy has been resolved, the social climate has become so much better, and even business is better, the playing field allows for the French elite to thrive, and gives ample space to the anglo culture in its midst to thrive as well. I don't want to imagine my country any other way than what it has become, and certainly not go back to the way things were.

I don't know how the actual language status in Ireland can bring about this kind of change, because the numbers aren't quite the same as here. On the other hand, an ancient culture with strong contemporary educational attainments just creates more possibilities for reinvention.

That doesn't answer the cultural/mental divide between the unionists and republicans and all those in between.

Good post.

The language issue had nothing to do with the language per se, as Unionists live with it in place names and in the broader way we Irish all use the English language differently to the British people, precisely because it borrowed from the indigenous language quite naturally.

The language issue is about supremacy, siege mentalities and insecurity around a sense of belonging.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What do you mean by a former account?

It's against the rules to openly speculate but you have an almost identical style to a former Boards.ie account I recall.

And why in the context of this thread do you keep talking about the British Empire?

Ireland was the first colony of Britain and remained so until the British state and its proxies were booted out of most of the country (six counties left to go).

You'll note that the RIC were not answerable to the Irish people, and the British tried to prevent Irish independence by use of terrorism and subsequently caused the partition of the nation by threat of terrorism [an immediate and terrible war].

You're obsessed with the British Empire.

I'll stop caring about the British empire's remnants when it fucks off out of Ireland.

Tell me, would you like to see Ireland back in the so-called United Kingdom?

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

And you never addressed the fact that you have to change the GFA if you want another poll on an independent NI. That nobody politically has asked for. How do you intend to do that?

Why would you have to change the GFA to have a poll?

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

Why would you have to change the GFA to have a poll?

So you are proposing holding a poll on an independent NI and just pushing the GFA to one side? An agreement that has two options in it, stay in the UK if the majority wish, or create a UI if a majority wish it.


Okie doke, all I can say really, is good luck with that one.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

So you are proposing holding a poll on an independent NI and just pushing the GFA to one side? An agreement that has two options in it, stay in the UK if the majority wish, or create a UI if a majority wish it.
Okie doke, all I can say really, is good luck with that one.

I'm of the opinion that all options should be explored.
I firmly believe that NI should go on its own first and let everybody learn to live together and be one people. Going directly from the UK to a UI is a disaster waiting to happen

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that all options should be explored.
I firmly believe that NI should go on its own first and let everybody learn to live together and be one people. Going directly from the UK to a UI is a disaster waiting to happen

And just ignore the GFA.
Apart from the fact that we are discussing these issues because NI doesn't work and never did, you are looking to start another conflict trying to force through something nobody wants.

If there was more than a few Loyalist loons looking for it whenever it looks like it is the last ditch to defend, then there would be political voices calling for it.

It is no more an option than Ireland rejoining the UK voluntarily.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

And just ignore the GFA. Apart from the fact that we are discussing these issues because NI doesn't work and never did, you are looking to start another conflict trying to force through something nobody wants.

If there was more than a few Loyalist loons looking for it whenever it looks like it is the last ditch to defend, then there would be political voices calling for it.
It is no more an option than Ireland rejoining the UK voluntarily.

You know as much as me about what the people of NI want which is nothing but guesswork.
The best post made in the last 24 hours mentions the fact that there are Catholics who secretly want to remain in the UK and Unionists that want a UI. They'd never admit that for fear of repercussions. That's the sad thing about living up there is that you can't admit your true opinion unless it's the same as your neighbours. That's why I believe they are not ready to join a UI. The UK option isn't working either. The only other option is an independent state even if it's not on the table in the 22 year old GFA.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

eagle eye wrote: »

let everybody learn to live together and be one people.

Don't be a monkey and start with yourself because these wacky prescriptions you're writing are completely bananas.

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

You know as much as me about what the people of NI want which is nothing but guesswork.
The best post made in the last 24 hours mentions the fact that there are Catholics who secretly want to remain in the UK and Unionists that want a UI. They'd never admit that for fear of repercussions. That's the sad thing about living up there is that you can't admit your true opinion unless it's the same as your neighbours. That's why I believe they are not ready to join a UI. The UK option isn't working either. The only other option is an independent state even if it's not on the table in the 22 year old GFA.

This hoary old nonsense.

I will tell you what, go up 'there' start a conversation with some real people. If there is one thing a northerner is not afraid of, it is expressing an opinion.

And that is why I know your indy NI is not something anyone wants, because nobody is talking or asking for it.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Junkyard Tom wrote:

Don't be a monkey and start with yourself because these wacky prescriptions you're writing are completely bananas.

Ha, you really haven't anything to say so just go for the insult. My advice is go to bed.

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They were in armoured cars. They fired randomly into the crowd. They did the same on Bloody Sunday in Derry and countless time around the world.

Yeah but walking into a fish shop with a bomb with kids etc is different ?

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And just ignore the GFA.
Apart from the fact that we are discussing these issues because NI doesn't work and never did, you are looking to start another conflict trying to force through something nobody wants.

If there was more than a few Loyalist loons looking for it whenever it looks like it is the last ditch to defend, then there would be political voices calling for it.

It is no more an option than Ireland rejoining the UK voluntarily.

Plenty of catholic loons as well.....

munsterlegend

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Yeah but walking into a fish shop with a bomb with kids etc is different ?

Who said it was different? What happened on the shankill that day was totally wrong. However Rob said it was perfectly justifiable for the British army to drive a tank into Croke park and shoot at the players (Tipperary captain Hogan killed) and the spectators in the crowd.

What’s your view on Rob’s assertion?

Redgirl82

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This hoary old nonsense.

I will tell you what, go up 'there' start a conversation with some real people. If there is one thing a northerner is not afraid of, it is expressing an opinion.

And that is why I know your indy NI is not something anyone wants, because nobody is talking or asking for it.

What a load of rubbish, you have no idea what people want in North. You seem to be stuck in a time 30 years ago when every problem in the North should be blamed on the other side. Build on hate....

The majority in north have moved on, now Sinn Fein are the loonies pushing for a United ireland and don’t give a care what anyone wants. Have they even bothered to sit with any other party to discuss? Or is it usual discussion via media

They are idiots, if you want a United ireland your better off hoping FF/FG and the US get involved again or nothing will happen. Sinn Fein certainly won’t and all they will do is start another troubles.

The “every catholic “ wants it is bulls**t as well, I already provided an example if someone losing their job because if unified Ireland but you just ignored that, that happens a lot with you.

Maybe stop insulting unionist, grow up, ask the Sinn Fein when they are pulling all the northern partners together to start discussion....until then it’s a pointless conversation

Redgirl82

munsterlegend wrote: »

Who said it was different? What happened on the shankill that day was totally wrong. However Rob said it was perfectly justifiable for the British army to drive a tank into Croke park and shoot at the players (Tipperary captain Hogan killed) and the spectators in the crowd.

What’s your view on Rob’s assertion?

It wasn’t right

None of it was right but are we still pointing the finger at they done this and we done that bull**** because that what Sinn Fein want

If United ireland is going to happen then
Sinn Fein need to shut up in media and start talking to other northern parties
They need to put something in place that starts to increase the standard of living in Northern Ireland
A job program to reduce the public service
Get the my numbers and get an official report, no more back of fag box

Do all that and then start, that would take 6 months at the start, let’s see then......the fact they can’t even sit in a room with DUP suggests you have the wrong party involved

If people in Northern Ireland really want a unified Ireland then stop voting Sinn Fein, they are incapable of talking to a single party in Ireland. The DUP for all that is said at least got a great deal off the tories, more than Sinn Fein have ever done

munsterlegend

Redgirl82 wrote: »

It wasn’t right

None of it was right but are we still pointing the finger at they done this and we done that bull**** because that what Sinn Fein want

If United ireland is going to happen then
Sinn Fein need to shut up in media and start talking to other northern parties
They need to put something in place that starts to increase the standard of living in Northern Ireland
A job program to reduce the public service
Get the my numbers and get an official report, no more back of fag box

Do all that and then start, that would take 6 months at the start, let’s see then......the fact they can’t even sit in a room with DUP suggests you have the wrong party involved

If people in Northern Ireland really want a unified Ireland then stop voting Sinn Fein, they are incapable of talking to a single party in Ireland. The DUP for all that is said at least got a great deal off the tories, more than Sinn Fein have ever done

I’m not a SF supporter but are they not sitting in a room with the DUP at the moment?

While I get your argument another would be that if a place is thriving why would people vote for change and vote for a United Ireland? Look at Scotland while not thriving but relatively comfortable a majority were afraid to take the risk of independence.

Brexit has the potential to change the status quo but you can’t seriously look at border poll figures when people have no idea what a new Ireland actually might look likes economically as well as socially and culturally.

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's against the rules to openly speculate but you have an almost identical style to a former Boards.ie account I recall.

Specualte away that I'm a British empire fantasist or fetishist, this is my first and only account on boards.ie so you can speculate away about my style, but I say again, what has the British empire got to do with this? and why are you so obsessed with it in the context of this thread?

I guess you're suggesting NI is part of their evil empire and that it must be freed, Yes?