How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The people in the PS and HSE also know they need reform. But reform is an easy word to say. Refrom manifests itself usually in changing work practices meaning many people are put out, lose some perk, or lose their job. Everyone loves reform until it effects them.

There are 300,000 public servants in the Republic. They are loud, organised, they lobby and they also vote en mass. That is why government rarely goes after them.



To be fair this is just absolute nonesense.



100% they will, if their interests are in jeopardy.

Not everyone thinks like you Francie, who sees a UI as some mythical elysian fields type destiny for the island of Ireland. Many people do not care and if you are going to threaten their pay and jobs, they will en-mass reject a UI.

I am seriously questioning do you even know how this country works, the way society operates and the Irish culture of protecting what you have at all costs.

There you go again, inventing stuff about 'dreams'.
A UI will be a huge real challenge to us. Even if it works and we find a way to live together, there will STILL be the day to day challenges that face any country. Successes and failures, highs and lows etc etc.
I do not live in any bubbles about that.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no data on the incidence of sectarianism emanating from schools in NI. Sectarianism is a localised problem requiring localised targeted solutions that the Shared Education programme quietly and subtly resolves if properly funded and supported,
While I agree with secular education, your kneejerk fascistic final solution is only going to cause chaos where none is necessary.

Again, yes there is.

I posted it some posts back.

The two big things that keep the North divided by sectarian lines are:

a) Endogamy
b) Segregated education

One feeds into another. The state cannot force people to marry people from across the divide, but they can force schools who accept the tax payers money to de-segregated and accept children from across all faiths and backgrounds.

It is already happening with the IEF. They should be state funded and with a carrot and stick method get schools to desegregate as soon as feasibly possible.

Concerns about facists or choice ring hollow and remind us all of the George Wallace argument.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There you go again, inventing stuff about 'dreams'.
A UI will be a huge real challenge to us. Even if it works and we find a way to live together, there will STILL be the day to day challenges that face any country. Successes and failures, highs and lows etc etc.
I do not live in any bubbles about that.

Cleary you do, if you think 300,000 public servants are going to be voting for a UI which means, lower pay and conditions and job losses.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Again, yes there is.

I posted it some posts back.

The two big things that keep the North divided by sectarian lines are:

a) Endogamy
b) Segregated education

One feeds into another. The state cannot force people to marry people from across the divide, but they can force schools who accept the tax payers money to de-segregated and accept children from across all faiths and backgrounds.

It is already happening with the IEF. They should be state funded and with a carrot and stick method get schools to desegregate as soon as feasibly possible.

Concerns about facists or choice ring hollow and remind us all of the George Wallace argument.

]

You have yet to show how sectarianism is being spread by these schools. If they require the divisive and draconian intervention you propose then you have to show this data.
Otherwise, you are in dictatorship territory. The people of northern Ireland know that secular dictatorship would be just as bad as the religious dictatorship they lived under for so long.
You are way out of tune here.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

Cleary you do, if you think 300,000 public servants are going to be voting for a UI which means, lower pay and conditions and job losses.

Up there or down here?

Average Irish worker is by far richer than their NI counterpart. In all sectors

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have yet to show how sectarianism is being spread by these schools. If they require the divisive and draconian intervention you propose then you have to show this data.

I have repated this time and time again. Segregated education manifests and perpertuates the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. There is a lot of data and research done about this, which you choose to ignore.

Otherwise, you are in dictatorship territory. The people of northern Ireland know that secular dictatorship would be just as bad as the religious dictatorship they lived under for so long.
You are way out of tune here.

FTW

George Wallace wrote:

I am a conservative. I intend to give the American people a clear choice. I welcome a fight between our philosophy and the liberal left-wing dogma which now threatens to engulf every man, woman, and child in the United States. I am in this race because I believe the American people have been pushed around long enough and that they, like you and I, are fed up with the continuing trend toward a socialist state which now subjects the individual to the dictates of an all-powerful central government

George Wallace wrote:

As your governor, I shall resist any illegal federal court order, even to the point of standing at the schoolhouse door in person, if necessary

markodaly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Up there or down here?

Average Irish worker is by far richer than their NI counterpart. In all sectors

I wouldnt disagree, therefore have more to loose.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

I wouldnt disagree, therefore have more to loose.

So you are talking absolute bollox. Just for the sake?

I enjoy your contributions but this is a strange one

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I have repated this time and time again. Segregated education manifests and perpertuates the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. There is a lot of data and research done about this, which you choose to ignore.



FTW

I haven't ignored a thing. There is no 'blanket' sectarian divide covering all the north.

I presented 'work done' that doesn't recommend what you are. It recommends the Shared Education model as more effective and capable of being targeted. I asked before for a political party recommending yours and blanch's final solution and there isn't one.

So there is also 'no resistance' to this idea politically.

markodaly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So you are talking absolute bollox. Just for the sake?

I enjoy your contributions but this is a strange one

I have to see any research into the notion the people with more wealth, security and higher paid jobs welcomes this stuff being taken away from them.

There is a reason why in general, the older you get the more conservative one votes, because they have more to lose.

If you disagree show me evidence to the contrary.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I haven't ignored a thing. There is no 'blanket' sectarian divide covering all the north.

Yes, none what so ever.

https://twitter.com/IrishPolMaps/status/873015090248916992/photo/1

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I presented 'work done' that doesn't recommend what you are. It recommends the Shared Education model as more effective and capable of being targeted. I asked before for a political party recommending yours and blanch's final solution and there isn't one.

Shared education, is skimming the surface of the problem. All it does is organise field trips, excursions and the like between various schools of different hues and backgrounds.
It is certainly worthy, but again, skims over the actual crux of the issue. Its easy to get political support for that, when major reform is what is needed but that will upset the powers that be.

93% of children are being educated in schools that are segregated. The schools themselves should be shared. THAT is the issue.

The model is there.
https://www.ief.org.uk/

All it needs is political support and funding to be implemented. On the other sides of the coin, I would pressure schools to open its enrollment to people from other faiths if they want to receive tax payer money.

A school in the south under a RCC patronage cannot legally deny a child enrollment because they are not a Catholic. I am not sure why the North should be treated differently.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

I have to see any research into the notion the people with more wealth, security and higher paid jobs welcomes this stuff being taken away from them.

There is a reason why in general, the older you get the more conservative one votes, because they have more to lose.

If you disagree show me evidence to the contrary.

That’s really hysterical Mark. Not the funny kind.

Who’s taking anything off anyone?

Just to add the most expensive schools here are largely Protestant. Look up the rugby schools.

We have educational segregation too

It’s wrong. But we do. And those schools also funded far better in a lot of cases than regular schools .

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

93% of children are being educated in schools that are segregated. The schools themselves should be shared. THAT is the issue.

At the end of the day, that is the crucial issue - the 93% being educated in a sectarian environment.

Yet, we are being told by the non-SF voting but SF-supporting (how do they manage, I struggle to keep count of the various factions) cohort that there is nothing to see and no need to worry.

blanch152

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s really hysterical Mark. Not the funny kind.

Who’s taking anything off anyone?

Just to add the most expensive schools here are largely Protestant. Look up the rugby schools.

We have educational segregation too

It’s wrong. But we do. And those schools also funded far better in a lot of cases than regular schools .

When compared on a regional basis to most other regions of Europe, the performance of the North has been abject and pathetic to say the leas. Are their heads rolling? Not in a million years because that would upset the status quo.

markodaly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just to add the most expensive schools here are largely Protestant. Look up the rugby schools.

We have educational segregation too

It’s wrong. But we do. And those schools also funded far better in a lot of cases than regular schools .

A whataboutery answer.

Some private schools are protestant but the majority of them would be under catholic patronage. I have not seen evidence to the contrary.
That is not even talking about the vast majority of public schools in the state being under an RCC patronage.

In some ways we do have educational segregation in terms of socio-economic inequality. Good schools tend to be in good areas, bad schools tend to be in bad areas. This is an issue in most countries in the world by the way.

In the north, they have this as well, but on top of it, they have a religious/sectarian segregation mapped over on top.
No one thinks that it's a good idea that 93% of children are educated in a segregated way.

markodaly

blanch152 wrote: »

At the end of the day, that is the crucial issue - the 93% being educated in a sectarian environment.

Yet, we are being told by the non-SF voting but SF-supporting (how do they manage, I struggle to keep count of the various factions) cohort that there is nothing to see and no need to worry.

It is odd that I see the same posters giving out on other threads about the way the RCC controls so many public schools in the south. Yet, when we talk about the north, the terms 'choice' and 'fascist' come to the fore.

We get accused of a partitionist mindset but this one takes the biscuit. :pac:

TLDR: We all know its a problem, yet some refuse to accept the medicine needed to fix the problem. Certainly, the DUP or SF are not going to be advocating the medicine needed as it will upset the base more.

George Wallace would be smiling at some of the posters on this thread.

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

It is odd that I see the same posters giving out on other threads about the way the RCC controls so many public schools in the south. Yet, when we talk about the north, the terms 'choice' and 'fascist' come to the fore.

We get accused of a partitionist mindset but this one takes the biscuit. :pac:

TLDR: We all know its a problem, yet some refuse to accept the medicine needed to fix the problem. Certainly, the DUP or SF are not going to be advocating the medicine needed as it will upset the base more.

George Wallace would be smiling at some of the posters on this thread.

SF and the DUP are locked into a mutual bond to prevent progress in the North.

Both of them prefer a divided society with denominational schools and the like.

Actually, I nevwer even considered hospitals, Does anyone have the breakdown between the sedtrian holidays/

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

SF and the DUP are locked into a mutual bond to prevent progress in the North.

No political party in NI is suggesting this fascistic policy blanch. Could you try and remember you are talking to people who know this.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

It is odd that I see the same posters giving out on other threads about the way the RCC controls so many public schools in the south. Yet, when we talk about the north, the terms 'choice' and 'fascist' come to the fore.

We get accused of a partitionist mindset but this one takes the biscuit. :pac:

TLDR: We all know its a problem, yet some refuse to accept the medicine needed to fix the problem. Certainly, the DUP or SF are not going to be advocating the medicine needed as it will upset the base more.

George Wallace would be smiling at some of the posters on this thread.

I think it was Colm Eastwood who challenged FG to run candidates in NI if they felt so strongly about change.

As you and blanch have started to misrepresent arguments AGAIN, let me re-state.
I agree with the goal here, desegregated education and removal of church control.
I do not agree with your fascistic methods though. It is a sledgehammer to crack the proverbial nut.

What you haven't proved is what anyone who lives there or knows about it, knows, is that schools are not turning out sectarian pupils on a widespread scale, it is a very localised problem where subtler targeted solutions are required.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

All of our schools will be using the educate together model before much longer anyways.
I think it’s a moot point. Majority of people up there would take that over some church controlled school. Not that that even matters as much down here anymore. They don’t do the crushing catholic ‘ethos’ anything like as much as they got away with in the past.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

YFG are appalling. I’d rather they were nowhere near this. But here we are

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1198197741366763520?s=21

Yamanoto

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just to add the most expensive schools here are largely Protestant. Look up the rugby schools.

If you're speaking of schools south of the border, the 'rugby schools' are overwhelmingly Catholic in ethos. I'd also be sceptical of your claim re Protestant schools being the most expensive in the state.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Yamanoto wrote: »

If you're speaking of schools south of the border, the 'rugby schools' are overwhelmingly Catholic in ethos. I'd also be sceptical of your claim re Protestant schools being the most expensive in the state.

Happy to be corrected but those schools are insanely expensive and simply out of the reach for the majority of people.

Yamanoto

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Happy to be corrected but those schools are insanely expensive and simply out of the reach for the majority of people.

Sending your kids to the likes of Blackrock or St. Michael's appears to be well within the reach of many middle class couples. That doesn't say insanely expensive to me.

I've a cousin in London paying £40k per term for his eldest lads secondary education. That constitutes insanely expensive in my book & I'm glad we've nothing near comparable here.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Yamanoto wrote: »

Sending your kids to the likes of Blackrock or St. Michael's appears to be well within the reach of many middle class couples. That doesn't say insanely expensive to me.

I've a cousin in London paying £40k per term for his eldest lads secondary education. That constitutes insanely expensive in my book & I'm glad we've nothing near comparable here.

Slightly tangential but saw this today. It’s interesting. There is outright classism at play but it’s astonishing how much more money is given to some over others. ** Leo congratulating castleknock tennis club on a huge grant only this week too (congratulating himself. It’s his constituency)



https://twitter.com/boucherhayes/status/1197576724218875905?s=21

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Back on track. Would love to know the reasons behind this up north.
This is damning.

https://twitter.com/seamusmcguinnes/status/1198237265895530496?s=21

blanch152

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Back on track. Would love to know the reasons behind this up north.
This is damning.

https://twitter.com/seamusmcguinnes/status/1198237265895530496?s=21

Segregated schooling has meant no reform in decades leading to unacceptable educational outcomes.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Back on track. Would love to know the reasons behind this up north.
This is damning.

https://twitter.com/seamusmcguinnes/status/1198237265895530496?s=21

I'd hazard a guess that early school leavers is a much larger problem in PUL communities than it is in Catholic/Nationalist ones.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that early school leavers is a much larger problem in PUL communities than it is in Catholic/Nationalist ones.

It is. It’s something like twice as many from catholic backgrounds go on to third level education.
Those stats were recent enough I’ll try find them