How long before Irish reunification?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Unionisms Dwindling into oblivion

https://twitter.com/news_letter/status/1197611136842993664?s=21

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ha ha...we are now going to pivot away to pretending we were talking about 'the abstract unifying of minds'.

You are gas.

You jumped into a discussion on the constitution and then started wittering about an imaginary border poll.

Have a lie down for yourself.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

You jumped into a discussion on the constitution and then started wittering about an imaginary border poll.

Have a lie down for yourself.

The idea that the clause in the constitution is about 'unifying minds and not territory' is a figment of the imaginations of those whose minds are paralysed in fear by a border poll.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The idea that the clause in the constitution is about 'unifying minds and not territory' is a figment of the imaginations of those whose minds are paralysed in fear by a border poll.

Wow, an expert in constitutional law as well.

There must be no beginnings to your talent.

My advice would be to start with a dictionary and work your way up from there.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Wow, an expert in constitutional law as well.

There must be no beginnings to your talent.

My advice would be to start with a dictionary and work your way up from there.

Not able to debate the point - throw some insults.

Excellent.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not able to debate the point - throw some insults.

Excellent.

Insults?

No, I just find it amusing that someone as biased as you, thinks their views on the interpretation of the constitution, is worth consideration.

I think we hit a sore spot here.

The removal of our territorial claim to the North must have killed you. I can practically taste the bitterness.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Insults?

No, I just find it amusing that someone as biased as you, thinks their views on the interpretation of the constitution, is worth consideration.

I think we hit a sore spot here.

The removal of our territorial claim to the North must have killed you. I can practically taste the bitterness.

eh Facehugger...I campaigned for and voted for the GFA. I still believe in it and am not wriggling like a wet cat to change the clauses in it just because a UI is now on the horizon.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

eh Facehugger...I campaigned for and voted for the GFA. I still believe in it and am not wriggling like a wet cat to change the clauses in it just because a UI is now on the horizon.

Sounds like you didn’t know what you were campaigning for.

Too late now bud.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Sounds like you didn’t know what you were campaigning for.

Too late now bud.

How so?

Do tell us how a Border Poll is going to be about just 'unifying minds'? Put yer constitutional hat on there.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How so?

Do tell us how a Border Poll is going to be about just 'unifying minds'? Put yer constitutional hat on there.

I miss janfebmars irrelevant tangents into fake history lessons.

They were at least amusing.
What ever happened her?

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How so?

Do tell us how a Border Poll is going to be about just 'unifying minds'? Put yer constitutional hat on there.

Your imaginary border poll will be about paying billions of euros in taxes every year.

Our current constitution doesn’t require any border poll to be validated.

Not sure why you keep mentioning a border poll, you sound really confused.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Your imaginary border poll will be about paying billions of euros in taxes every year.

Our current constitution doesn’t require any border poll to be validated.

Not sure why you keep mentioning a border poll, you sound really confused.

What?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

That made absolutely no sense at all.

But from the person that claimed 37% is a majority I’m not really surprised.

Beasty

30-40 years

facehugger99, do not post in this thread again

Any questions, PM me

Beasty wrote: »

OK, I'm re-opening it. No sanctions have been issued, which means some of you are very fortunate

Going forward we will not be so generous, so please keep the discussion civil. Attack the post, not the poster. If you have a problem with a post or poster report it. Do not state here you are reporting it though - that's essentially trying to force a moderator's hand, and will be treated as backseat modding

facehugger99 wrote: »

You jumped into a discussion on the constitution and then started wittering about an imaginary border poll.

Have a lie down for yourself.

facehugger99 wrote: »

Wow, an expert in constitutional law as well.

There must be no beginnings to your talent.

My advice would be to start with a dictionary and work your way up from there.

markodaly

Schumi7 wrote: »

Have you asked the parents about this, or the various boards of governors which operate the schools? I think you'd find such a proposal would meet with pretty fierce resistance.

I do not see it like that. We hear the same thing from the Iona Institute here in the south about a reluctance to divest schools from RCC patronage. It is odd that some people who would support such action in the south, start waving their arms and start shouting about 'choice' when talking about the north.

That is not even touching on the subject of integration and the end of educational segregation. Similar statements were made by the likes of George Wallce about white parents being upset that their kids will have to mix with black kids. "Why wont people think of the parents!!"
I am sure you agree here, that in such a scenario, there was a much bigger good being looked at.

Leaving aside the prospect of the state imposing your will on others, why would parents from the catholic community/tradition endorse a policy which would reduce the standard of education available for their children?

Why would the standard of education have to be reduced? The Finns, who are world leaders in education do not have 93% of their kids going to religious schools. They educate their children through secular state run schools and by all metrics appear to be world leaders.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rather than the draconian, fascistic 'do as I say' model propounded here

I am sure George Wallace also thought the Federal US government as fascist when they ended the segregation of schools in the South.

George Wallace wrote:

We shall continue to maintain segregation in Alabama completely and absolutely without violence or ill-will. … I advocate hatred of no man, because hate will only compound the problems facing the South. … We ask for patience and tolerance and make an earnest request that we be allowed to handle state and local affairs without outside interference.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rationalise and reform a dysfunctional Public Service (and save a fortune in the process) as has been done over and over around the world = TOO HARD

Yes, reform the PS is easy, just ask Brendan Howlin.

Shut down the current education system on a hunch it is creating sectarianism on a huge scale and frog march students and parents into a system they haven't asked for = EASY PEASY.

What are you yapping about. No one is talking about closing schools, but we are talking about divesting schools that do not have a policy of integration. The vast majority of schools, can remain as they are, the only difference being that both Catholics and Prodestants can go to the same school. As you admitted, its already happening, albeit at a very slow pace.

What I am saying is that the process needs to be speeded up exponentially. Start funding the IEF and warn other schools who do not de-segreate that their state funds will start coming to and end. One can do this over a period of a few years. No one is talkig about 'shutting down' the education system or building hundreds of new schools. Let us stick with reality here and not invesnt hysterical strawmans.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

In no universe is the state going to force people to make their kids attend non denominational schools. They’re not closing them down they’re just removing the churches control.

Talk about trying to make a desperate non issue sideshow

Can you present any evidence of kids here in Ireland actual of children having their religious beliefs taken away from them or threatened in any way?

Save you the bother. There are none.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Their's is a failed statelet, and it isn't going to change after 100 years- hence the need to end partition.

Our PS and HS are in need of major reform = win win opportunity for everyone.

Yes, a sure vote winner for a UI.

"For for a UI and lose your job" said no politican ever.

If that is your case, then the likehood of a UI is lower than I thought.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, a sure vote winner for a UI.

"For for a UI and lose your job" said no politican ever.

If that is your case, then the likehood of a UI is lower than I thought.

Who is going to represent that POV for you in a border poll? I have asked Facehugger, blanch (on another thread), this question. And nobody has pointed to a party or political rep who will take this negative position with regards to a Ui.

markodaly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

In no universe is the state going to force people to make their kids attend non denominational schools. They’re not closing them down they’re just removing the churches control.

Talk about trying to make a desperate non issue sideshow

Can you present any evidence of kids here in Ireland actual of children having their religious beliefs taken away from them or threatened in any way?

Save you the bother. There are none.

So you are agreeing with me?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, reform the PS is easy, just ask Brendan Howlin.



What are you yapping about. No one is talking about closing schools, but we are talking about divesting schools that do not have a policy of integration. The vast majority of schools, can remain as they are, the only difference being that both Catholics and Prodestants can go to the same school. As you admitted, its already happening, albeit at a very slow pace.

What I am saying is that the process needs to be speeded up exponentially. Start funding the IEF and warn other schools who do not de-segreate that their state funds will start coming to and end. One can do this over a period of a few years. No one is talkig about 'shutting down' the education system or building hundreds of new schools. Let us stick with reality here and not invesnt hysterical strawmans.

Ah right. So nobody said...'**** em if they don't like it'.

Grand so, the pivot has been made. That's something.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is going to represent that POV for you in a border poll? I have asked Facehugger, blanch (on another thread), this question. And nobody has pointed to a party or political rep who will take this negative position with regards to a Ui.

Hold on a sec, it was you who stated that a UI will be an opportunity to reform the PS/HS of the south. You do know that that will mean job losses and/or pay cuts?
People are not stupid and there will be politicians, interest groups, trade unions on the air waves warning about this, if this is indeed your plan.

Ireland's economy utterly collapsed about 10 years ago, yet we barely reformed anything to do with the PS/HSE. That is how strong the PS unions are in this country.

If you think getting a UI over the line and telling tens of thousands of people at the same time that you will have to accept worse pay and conditions or even job losses, then you are barking mad.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah right. So nobody said...'**** em if they don't like it'.

Grand so, the pivot has been made. That's something.

If they dont like it, so what? You cannot please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Should we not divest religious schools in the south in case one parent gives out about it, because you stated support for such actions before, but now we are talking about the north, your opinion changes. Why the partionist attitude?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Hold on a sec, it was you who stated that a UI will be an opportunity to reform the PS/HS of the south. You do know that that will mean job losses and/or pay cuts?
People are not stupid and there will be polticans, interest groups, trade unions on the air waves warning about this, if this is indeed your plan.

Ireland's economy utterly collapsed about 10 years ago, yet we barely reformed anything to do with the PS/HSE. That is how strong the PS unions are in this country.

If you think getting a UI over the line and telling tens of thousands of people at the same time that you will have to accept worse pay and conditions or even job losses, then you are barking mad.

As they say...'the dogs in the street know' the HS and PS are out of whack.

Last time I looked they are not a majority in and off themselves. People in the private sector know they need reform.
Nobody is saying that they will have to accept worse pay and conditions.
Rationalising and reform will more likely result in better outcomes under those headings.

Do you think trade unions would agitate against a UI, finally turn their backs on the ideology of Connolly?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

So you are agreeing with me?

Your posts are nonsensical hysteria if you’re warping what I said.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

If they dont like it, so what? You cannot please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Should we not divest religious schools in the south in case one parent gives out about it, because you stated support for such actions before, but now we are talking about the north, your opinion changes. Why the partionist attitude?

You should listen to the latest episode of brevity republic

Health warning. It will be an uncomfortable listen for you

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/rt%C3%A9-brexit-republic/id1400927124#episodeGuid=https%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2019%2F1121%2F20191121_webexclusi-brexitrepublic-truthclari_c21661955_21661956_232_.mp3

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As they say...'the dogs in the street know' the HS and PS are out of whack.

Last time I looked they are not a majority in and off themselves. People in the private sector know they need reform.

The people in the PS and HSE also know they need reform. But reform is an easy word to say. Refrom manifests itself usually in changing work practices meaning many people are put out, lose some perk, or lose their job. Everyone loves reform until it effects them.

There are 300,000 public servants in the Republic. They are loud, organised, they lobby and they also vote en mass. That is why government rarely goes after them.

Nobody is saying that they will have to accept worse pay and conditions.
Rationalising and reform will more likely result in better outcomes under those headings.

To be fair this is just absolute nonesense.

Do you think trade unions would agitate against a UI, finally turn their backs on the ideology of Connolly?

100% they will, if their interests are in jeopardy.

Not everyone thinks like you Francie, who sees a UI as some mythical elysian fields type destiny for the island of Ireland. Many people do not care and if you are going to threaten their pay and jobs, they will en-mass reject a UI.

I am seriously questioning do you even know how this country works, the way society operates and the Irish culture of protecting what you have at all costs.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

If they dont like it, so what? You cannot please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Should we not divest religious schools in the south in case one parent gives out about it, because you stated support for such actions before, but now we are talking about the north, your opinion changes. Why the partionist attitude?

I'm an atheist Mark, in a house with 3 Church of Irelanders. My children went to RC primary and secular secondary. They went to RC primary because it was a better school and a bigger school so enhancing their social skills.
Their COI faith has not been impacted one bit, and in the ten years they attended the RC school there was one incident regarding their faith, which was sorted out.

There is no data on the incidence of sectarianism emanating from schools in NI. Sectarianism is a localised problem requiring localised targeted solutions that the Shared Education programme quietly and subtly resolves if properly funded and supported,
While I agree with secular education, your kneejerk fascistic final solution is only going to cause chaos where none is necessary.

markodaly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You should listen to the latest episode of brevity republic

Health warning. It will be an uncomfortable listen for you

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/rt%C3%A9-brexit-republic/id1400927124#episodeGuid=https%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2019%2F1121%2F20191121_webexclusi-brexitrepublic-truthclari_c21661955_21661956_232_.mp3

Does it touch on the educational segregation of the North?