How long before Irish reunification?

ohnonotgmail

20-30 years

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You know what, if they ever do decide to have a poll on this i really hope they put you or somebody like you in charge of campaigning for a yes vote. You would be the best weapon the No side could hope for.

So, that means you cannot answer the question once again? You could have been upfront about this at the outset.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

So, that means you cannot answer the question once again? You could have been upfront about this at the outset.

and again you show yourself to be the ideal choice to lead the Yes campaign. Well ideal if you want a no. All your responses are just confrontational. You posted a link to a paper on the subject. I responded. You ignored everything i said. Everything. I've already answered that question. You would know that if you had bothered to read my posts. But instead it is just attack attack attack. You come across as incredibly unlikeable.

facehugger99

cgcsb wrote: »

But you're happy to flog the nation's children to the British Empire to save a percentage?

There's definitely a few I wouldn't mind getting rid of.

RobMc59

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, this could indeed be called "ethnic cleansing", if you don't know what ethnic cleansing is.

As far as I'm aware of the North's demography the "100,000 or so hardliners" do not constitute the "ethnicity" of Unionism. It will be an absolute fact that loyalists will leave - the question is how many and what type - just as in every decolonisation process in history people who are unwilling to accept the new state leave with the colonial power.

The issue will be to ensure insofar as possible it's the dregs rather than the people who can contribute. The latter from the unionist community have, for many decades now, been leaving the North in huge numbers to go to college in Britain and not returning so they seem to be, to use your misapplied early 1990s nomenclature, "ethnically cleansing" themselves.

Why leave it there?anyone with a planter surname, protestants or "partitionist"could be made to wear a small "crown"badge or have a crown daubed on their front door.

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

For anybody who still has their head in the sand about the extent or significance of demographic change in the North, here are the latest (April 2019) official figures on the religious denomination of all students in education there:

This is another problem I have with this - and I accept my knowledge of the NI situation in this regard isn't as good.

But, down here we've steadily moved AWAY from the catholic religion being a deciding point on anything. Most people may tick "Catholic" on the census form, but their faith and church attendance only extends to the occasional wedding or funeral.

How seriously does the average Joe or Mary in NI take their religion these days? We all know the history, but hardliners aside, how many just pay lip service at best to it as we do in the Republic.

In short, "religion" would be one of the last metrics I'd be thinking of in 2019.

cgcsb

15-20 years

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is another problem I have with this - and I accept my knowledge of the NI situation in this regard isn't as good.

But, down here we've steadily moved AWAY from the catholic religion being a deciding point on anything. Most people may tick "Catholic" on the census form, but their faith and church attendance only extends to the occasional wedding or funeral.

How seriously does the average Joe or Mary in NI take their religion these days? We all know the history, but hardliners aside, how many just pay lip service at best to it as we do in the Republic.

In short, "religion" would be one of the last metrics I'd be thinking of in 2019.

Religion is simply a proxy for their ethno-national background. It isn't a catch all though, you have dyed in the wool republican Stephen Rae for example who is from a protestant background. Similarly there are members of the Church of Ireland, staunch unionists who are of native stock and have O' names who's great great great grand parents took the soup during the famine.

BarryD2

Deleted User wrote: »

Number of Catholic children in schools at all-time high (Irish News, April 2019)]

So? What relevance does that really have for a UI? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

You have totally the wrong angle on this subject. Who knows, maybe that's your agenda.

RobbieTheRobber

15-20 years

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is another problem I have with this - and I accept my knowledge of the NI situation in this regard isn't as good.

But, down here we've steadily moved AWAY from the catholic religion being a deciding point on anything. Most people may tick "Catholic" on the census form, but their faith and church attendance only extends to the occasional wedding or funeral.

How seriously does the average Joe or Mary in NI take their religion these days? We all know the history, but hardliners aside, how many just pay lip service at best to it as we do in the Republic.

In short, "religion" would be one of the last metrics I'd be thinking of in 2019.

We are still ticking the box catholic on the census form, 78% in the last census indicated as catholic and over 90% of schools in the republic are catholic denomination.

ohnonotgmail

20-30 years

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You posted a link to a paper on the subject. I responded. You ignored everything i said. Everything. I've already answered that question. You would know that if you had bothered to read my posts. But instead it is just attack attack attack. You come across as incredibly unlikeable.

But I didn't. Are you confused? Are you thinking of the Oireachtas report which Francie linked to? If so, your tantrum managed to be directed against the wrong poster. You also never responded to me about any report.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and again you show yourself to be the ideal choice to lead the Yes campaign. Well ideal if you want a no. All your responses are just confrontational.

As you're showing here your posting style is defined by its humourless, confrontational style, in fairness. How can you be oblivious to that? I just checked back again and you claimed here - responding to another poster! - that reunification would 'bankrupt the country'. Now that you've brought my attention to it, even though you made the claim, you didn't support it. If I were to, for instance, make the claim that ohnonotgmail is 'not very attentive to detail' I would be expected to prove it by enumerating various transgressions in that respect.

Similarly, if you make a claim, the onus is on you to support it. All you did, in fact, was make a personal jab at a couple of other posters. That, and misread the purpose of that Oireachtas report, extracts of which I've just read for the first time: 'The rationale behind the report was to examine challenges and to seek to identify concerns and explore how they could be addressed.' As an initial report, it highlighted that Brexit is very much a 'live' issue and that there are lacunae in the data, in particular relating to the North. Accordingly, it made tentative conclusions and suggestions based on the existing evidence. This is very normal. Do you expect them to make up evidence just to suit you? At that rate, there would be no research carried out in the world because there will always be holes (It's depressing this needs to be explained to you). It would be irresponsible at this stage if we had no all-party committee preparing us for a no-deal Brexit and how that would impact upon reunification. The fact that shortcomings are now being highlighted will allow them to hopefully be addressed in the future. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

RobMc59

10-15 years

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

We are still ticking the box catholic on the census form, 78% in the last census indicated as catholic and over 90% of schools in the republic are catholic denomination.

That does`nt really fit in with the "multi denominational"society the EU is promoting where a person`s religion is irrelevant.

Sunny Disposition

15-20 years

Find it hard to see why unionists want a Union anymore, partition has been very bad for the north from an economic point of view, the English and Scots aren't interested in them, they have a geographic link to the Republic, which isn't a sectarian or even religious country now. They'd be better off and their identity might mean something here, as it is they're like a crazy ex following the Brits around.

_Kaiser_

20-30 years

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is another problem I have with this - and I accept my knowledge of the NI situation in this regard isn't as good.

But, down here we've steadily moved AWAY from the catholic religion being a deciding point on anything. Most people may tick "Catholic" on the census form, but their faith and church attendance only extends to the occasional wedding or funeral.

How seriously does the average Joe or Mary in NI take their religion these days? We all know the history, but hardliners aside, how many just pay lip service at best to it as we do in the Republic.

In short, "religion" would be one of the last metrics I'd be thinking of in 2019.

I'd agree with you but I think until they replace 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' with 'nationalist' and 'unionist', or just leave the religion one and add the political one, on the Census it is generally considered as the best guide to voting intentions in the North. And that's just the reality for now. Like cgcsb says, they are essentially labels of power and power dynamics with unionists much more keen to define the conflict as religious and thus place its resolution beyond politics, while nationalists are keen to define it politically as 'nationalist' versus 'unionist' and thus within the realms of political change. Irish nationalists generally are quite proud of the Protestant role in cultural and political nationalist movements.

James Brown

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

I don't believe Noonan or Kenny ever voted in a referendum on unification and even if they had, I'd fail to see the relevance to how the rest of us will vote, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I was referencing this:

Thankfully not everyone is as cavalier when it comes to mortgaging our children's futures

Also Kenny got a little teary eyed on a UI as he left office.

RobMc59

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That does`nt really fit in with the "multi denominational"society the EU is promoting where a person`s religion is irrelevant.

So having a mere question on religion on the census doesn't fit in with a 'multidenominational society' why, precisely? Given that France is one of the only EU countries, if not the only one, which does not have a question on religion in its census, it's also not clear how the practice in Ireland doesn't 'fit' in with the practice in most other places in the EU.

You do know that we can have a multidenominational society where religious affiliation is recorded and this in no way undermines pluralism? You do know that a secular society and a pluralist society - e.g. one where there are many religious denominations - are not the same thing?

Pluralism, Religion and Secularism

Sunny Disposition

20-30 years

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Find it hard to see why unionists want a Union anymore, partition has been very bad for the north from an economic point of view, the English and Scots aren't interested in them, they have a geographic link to the Republic, which isn't a sectarian or even religious country now. They'd be better off and their identity might mean something here, as it is they're like a crazy ex following the Brits around.

If I remember my history lesson on the period around 1900, they were against independence (and, from 1912, in favour of partition) because the Irish were economically backward, lacking education, superstitious and ruled by Rome. Furthermore, by being under British rule they were part of the greatest political, economic, naval and military power in the world and Belfast would continue as a leading shipbuilding centre of the world.

Just as relevant today as it was in 1900, of course.

_blaaz

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Sounds charming - where do i sign up to be their sugar-daddy?

Meh...like i said...yous cheer on keeping irish citizens in poverty all yous want


Dont cod yourself to think your doing anything else

RobMc59

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So having a mere question on religion on the census doesn't fit in with a 'multidenominational society' why, precisely? Given that France is one of the only EU countries, if not the only one, which does not have a question on religion in its census, it's also not clear how the practice in Ireland doesn't 'fit' in with the practice in most other places in the EU.

You do know that we can have a multidenominational society where religious affiliation is recorded and this in no way undermines pluralism? You do know that a secular society and a pluralist society - e.g. one where there are many religious denominations - are not the same thing?

Pluralism, Religion and Secularism

Here in England people couldn't care less what religion you are.
Catholic,Protestant Jedi,whatever-as long as you aren't hurting anyone it doesn't matter-I've never been asked what religion I am in an official capacity.

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Here in England people couldn't care less what religion you are.
Catholic,Protestant Jedi,whatever-as long as you aren't hurting anyone it doesn't matter-I've never been asked what religion I am in an official capacity.

Have you heard of the National Front, Combat 18, Britain First, For Britain, The BNP, The Conservative party?

RobMc59

10-15 years

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Have you heard of the National Front, Combat 18, Britain First, For Britain, The BNP, The Conservative party?

Of course Matt,one masquerades as a political party and the others are minority group loons in the same mold as saoradh I believe.

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Of course Matt,one masquerades as a political party and the others are minority group loons in the same mold as saoradh I believe.

I believe many of them have issues with religion.

Das Reich

10-15 years

Ireland should try first to get Fermanagh annexed by some referendum. Then Donegal would not be so isolated from the rest of the country and a gradually unification would be the best.

RobMc59

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Here in England people couldn't care less what religion you are.
Catholic,Protestant Jedi,whatever-as long as you aren't hurting anyone it doesn't matter-I've never been asked what religion I am in an official capacity.

Why are you making so many ill-informed, sloppy claims?

1. Like the vast majority of countries in the EU, religion is also asked in the UK Census: UK Census 2011, religion statistics. That seems pretty official to me.

2. Unlike Ireland, you must have a specific religious denomination to hold the highest position in the UK state in 2019; the head of state must also be the head of the Church of England. No Catholics, Jews, Muslims or anybody else is allowed. Today, in 2019.

3. In every country in Europe "people couldn't care less" about religion, so you're not exactly claiming much for England with that vague, unquantified claim. Most people? A majority? How do you define "care"?, etc

I note that you still haven't explained why having a question on religion on a census is a bad thing. Maybe now that you're aware that Britain has such a question on its census it isn't such a bad thing?

Strumms

What if we took the six counties and we gave them Donegal

RobMc59

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are you making so many ill-informed, sloppy claims?

1. Like the vast majority of countries in the EU, religion is also asked in the UK Census: UK Census 2011, religion statistics. That seems pretty official to me.

2. Unlike Ireland, you must have a specific religious denomination to hold the highest position in the UK state in 2019; the head of state must also be the head of the Church of England. No Catholics, Jews, Muslims or anybody else is allowed. Today, in 2019.

3. In every country in Europe "people couldn't care less" about religion, so you're not exactly claiming much for England with that vague, unquantified claim. Most people? A majority? How do you define "care"?, etc

I note that you still haven't explained why having a question on religion on a census is a bad thing. Maybe now that you're aware that Britain has such a question on its census it isn't such a bad thing?

You are probably right about the census forms,as regards me explaining why questions about religion are good or bad things-I don't sit mulling over questions of people's religious persuasion as it doesn't bother me-i do know i certainly wouldn't agree with your suggestion
that ethnic cleansing as a remedy for anything.

James Brown

10-15 years

Strumms wrote: »

What if we took the six counties and we gave them Donegal

Donegal is alright. Sligo is the real problem.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I believe many of them have issues with religion.

That's probably true Matt but if I remember correctly you've lived in the UK-would you say it's obsessed with religion?

Das Reich

20-30 years

Das Reich wrote: »

Ireland should try first to get Fermanagh annexed by some referendum. Then Donegal would not be so isolated from the rest of the country and a gradually unification would be the best.

Loads of research done on repartition. The size of any potential British state has understandably been getting smaller and smaller since 1970. Taking Fermanagh and Tyrone, which had nationalist majorities when Ireland was partitioned in December 1920, was not very visionary after all.

Nationalist-unionist general election results, 1997-2017:



However, the division of the 26 local districts (based on the 2011 census) across each of the 26 districts of the North is more nuanced:



The overall division of religious affiliation (based on the 2011 census) is significantly messier still, leading some people to describe repartition as a "Balkanisation" of the conflict:

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's probably true Matt but if I remember correctly you've lived in the UK-would you say it's obsessed with religion?

My neighbour had issue with 'the darkies' but can't say religion came up. That said I wouldn't claim to know how the English view religion, outside of the ruling authorities preferring any royal be a particular persuasion.

markodaly

cgcsb wrote: »

You realise that's nonsense right? This includes NI's contribution to such British money holes as:

-Renting the trident system that might/might not work and they might or might not be allowed use it on the day they need to

-Trillion pound occupations of middle eastern countries

-The UK royal family money hole, including keeping your man in armoured Roles Royces to plow into the commoners

- Paying for Brexit, including handing over massive sums to ferry companies that don't own any boats.

You didn't even read the link now did you?

The rest of your post is pure nonsense of the highest order.
Unless you are saying that if the North joined in a UI, they would magically go from being a net burden on the exchequer to being a net contributor.

Are we really talking fairy dust and magic beans here?
You can see now why people want to stay well clear of this debate, as the proponents of a UI are economic illiterates.

markodaly

cgcsb wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Oh jeeze, if it's not Brexit, it's Mao, a Hitler reference is only around the corner I'm sure.

Bottom line, obscure comparisons to situations with parallel issues isn't an argument.

Neither is stating repeatedly that it will all work out eventually or the oft used Irish phrase 'It will be grand!'

That is not a rational argument, it is a prayer based purely on faith and belief alone.