How long before Irish reunification?

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I wouldn't be voting for it for personal monitory gain. The concept that 'it must enrich us or why bother?'
is where you're missing the point. There's no 'we'll be grand' as regards any costs. It's something we should do and it'll cost what it costs. We've spent on 'taking one for the team' and various quangos, bondholders and lost money on sweet deals. A UI is far more worthy IMO.

Be careful Boris doesn't see these comments on how pointless having it is or the Unionists will get a kick up the arse out of it.

Again, I repeat. When all else fails (rational thought and reason) we fall back on primitive nationalism to justify something that normally should not be justified.

Some here get upset about the Brexit comparison but it's a match made in heaven in fairness. Many posters here have written many posts decrying the hard-line Brexit attitudes exhibited by our English neighbors, yet when it comes to the question of a UI, they exhibit the exact same traits and rationale.

So please tell us, how does a Brexit at any cost be bad, yet a UI at any cost be good?
All I see is the appeal to hard-line nationalism of the masses.

simongurnick

markodaly wrote: »

Again, I repeat. When all else fails (rational thought and reason) we fall back on primitive nationalism to justify something that normally should not be justified.

Some here get upset about the Brexit comparison but it's a match made in heaven in fairness. Many posters here have written many posts decrying the hard-line Brexit attitudes exhibited by our English neighbors, yet when it comes to the question of a UI, they exhibit the exact same traits and rationale.

So please tell us, how does a Brexit at any cost be bad, yet a UI at any cost be good?
All I see is the appeal to hard-line nationalism of the masses.

If there is a referendum it won't fully come down to that rationale. We are emotional beings and it is that sort of feeling that will drive more voters to the polls .

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Apologies of already posted. Great debate on the Irish Times podcast. Mary Lou, Unionist Sophie Long and ITs Simon Carswell.

Fascinating perspectives all sides but take away thinking this is more of an inevitable when rather than if.

Great listen have a go

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/irish-times-inside-politics/id794389685?i=1000443067662

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

*one of the points raised in the above was the unionists main objection historically to having anything like a UI was that they’d be ruled by Rome. Now that that demonstrably is no longer the case everyone up there but young people regardless of stripe arexlooking south and going ‘we want that. Why can’t we have that’ they’re stuck in the last most backward theocracy in Europe and it’s really backward but not unfixably so.

The DUP come in for a kicking and deservedly so in the above in any honest rational sense they can only carry on this ‘no to everything’ nonsense for so long.

BarryD2

20-30 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

So? What relevance does that really have for a UI? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

You have totally the wrong angle on this subject. Who knows, maybe that's your agenda.

If you seriously believe that the existence of more Catholics than Protestants at all levels of education is not highly significant for the future political status of the North you manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic. Well done.

BarryD2

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Find it hard to see why unionists want a Union anymore, partition has been very bad for the north from an economic point of view, the English and Scots aren't interested in them, they have a geographic link to the Republic, which isn't a sectarian or even religious country now. They'd be better off and their identity might mean something here, as it is they're like a crazy ex following the Brits around.

These things run deep: land, culture, ambition & religion. The only real way forward is to build bridges, emphasis what people have in common. But the politics of NI and the border works against that mostly. Division is promoted.

BarryD2

Deleted User wrote: »

If you seriously believe that the existence of more Catholics than Protestants at all levels of education is not highly significant for the future political status of the North you manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic. Well done.

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

_blaaz

10-15 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

Its like a 98% corrolation at election before last though?

BarryD2

20-30 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

Of course, nobody actually said something as simplistic as that so it's decidedly disingenuous of you to make up stuff. Nevertheless, please do report back with the number of Catholics who support the DUP. Do you think that there may possibly be some correlation between religious background and whether somebody defines as nationalist or unionist, even if that correlation is not strictly coterminious?

Pkiernan

What about reunification under British rule again?

Although tongue in cheek, it's almost as likely as a 32 county republic.

markodaly

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor. Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

markodaly

20-30 years

markodaly wrote: »

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor.

Not clear at all, but it's certainly a very nice, post-modern ideal with an endearing right-on feel.

markodaly wrote: »

Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

Right. So you can give evidence of a republican -
one will do, even if you did claim republicans - saying all Catholics would vote for reunification? I'll be waiting...

markodaly wrote: »

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

I wonder would you have said something similar about 1977, when Alliance got 14.4% of the vote, some 3 percentage points higher than their 11.5% in 2019? Alliance, Greens & PBP received a combined 14% of the vote in this year's local elections. Let's not allow statistics to undermine your wishful thinking, though.

_blaaz

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder would you have said something similar about 1977, when Alliance got 14.4% of the vote, some 3 percentage points higher than their 11.5% in 2019? Alliance, Greens & PBP received a combined 14% of the vote in this year's local elections. Let's not allow statistics to undermine your wishful thinking, though.

I was under impression virtually all of alliances increase in vote was from within unionism....a protest vote againest brexit

BarryD2

Pkiernan wrote: »

What about reunification under British rule again?

Although tongue in cheek, it's almost as likely as a 32 county republic.

Whilst quite unlikely, it's not an entirely ridiculous proposition. Who knows what will happen post Brexit, it may well ultimately suit the Republic to realign itself economically at least with the bigger island. A framework like that may well also draw unionists closer in and promote some form of unity under a new political entity.

Of course, there are many who would flatly deny this scenario and that the Republic's star is firmly linked to the EU market and multi nationals from the USA. But things change, business can be fickle and move on to a more advantageous arenas.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor. Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

This effectively

Add in farmers fishing and industry being crushed by brexit and you’ll see the practical effects and outcomes for having an all island economy.

When was the last time any of us heard the word society used by any member of any party?

It’s all about economy now.
People up there and down here will be shown the long term benefits of an all island economy with no border to the benefit of all.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Members of the PSNI joined Gardai and defence forces to march in Dublin’s Pride parade yesterday. Funny that.

Sunny Disposition

15-20 years

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.
As it is now Catholics are largely going to favour reunification and Protestants desperately want to avoid it. Even intelligent unionist commentators like Alex Kane aren’t going to be swayed an iota by a strong Southern economy.
I think Ulster unionism must be a very difficult identity and history to be born into. They also need the rest of the UK to buy into it for it to have any meaning, but it’s clear they are seen as expendible by most on the other side, even their fellow Leave advocates. Prisoners of a terrible and disgraceful history.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.
As it is now Catholics are largely going to favour reunification and Protestants desperately want to avoid it. Even intelligent unionist commentators like Alex Kane aren’t going to be swayed an iota by a strong Southern economy.
I think Ulster unionism must be a very difficult identity and history to be born into. They also need the rest of the UK to buy into it for it to have any meaning, but it’s clear they are seen as expendible by most on the other side, even their fellow Leave advocates. Prisoners of a terrible and disgraceful history.

Completely agree but Unionism has locked itself into that tower and is painfully isolationist to their own detriment. They can continue to do that but more and more it’s going to all move on without them. The quicker they engage the better.
As you said, Britain cares not a bit about them or NI. See them as paddies if they think about them at all. I don’t think true blue unionists have ever realised this but they’re about to be made to in this brexit scenario I’d say.

facehugger99

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue - The ROI voters will not take on a 10 billion a year economic basket case - it matters not a whit what NI wants.

_blaaz

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue - The ROI voters will not take on a 10 billion a year economic basket case - it matters not a whit what NI wants.

Just aswell its not a 10 billion a year basket case??


Something like 6.3 billion is pension payments of which contributions are paid to whitehall for....but dont let facts stop your incoherent rants

facehugger99

_blaaz wrote: »

Just aswell its not a 10 billion a year basket case??


Something like 6.3 billion is pension payments of which contributions are paid to whitehall for....but dont let facts stop your incoherent rants

Post up your figures there for us all to have a gander at.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Not directed any anyone but I do wonder how much of those so vehemently against the idea of a United ireland is based in an idealogy of its own. Or just a good old fashioned hatred of them up there.

To rub salt in the wound, We already have Russian troll farms caught sowing fake news stories about all political factions up in Northern Ireland via Facebook pages of different kinds. Most of which FB has identified as Russian interference and taken them down.

As if we needed their attempts at disruption in this already fraught and divisive debate.

_blaaz

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Post up your figures there for us all to have a gander at.

Mate...im on my phone...cant post links


Just read any of the budgets....id be hoping your not attempting to.pass off your opioion as infromed without reading the budget figures?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

Mate...im on my phone...cant post links


Just read any of the budgets....id be hoping your not attempting to.pass off your opioion as infromed without reading the budget figures?

It wouldn’t be the first time

Greyfox

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Not directed any anyone but I do wonder how much of those so vehemently against the idea of a United ireland is based in an idealogy of its own. Or just a good old fashioned hatred of them up there.

I don't think people against a UI have anything against them up there it's just the fact that a UI might cause an economic mess. The truth is the UI question is not important to most people in the Republic, most have no interest in N Ire politics.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

I don't think people against a UI have anything against them up there it's just the fact that a UI might cause an economic mess. The truth is the UI question is not important to most people in the Republic, most have no interest in N Ire politics.

So it follows that if that referendum happens, those you mentioned will be unburdened by the knowledge of the stupidity of all the politics up there and unaware of what a basket case economically it is and vote yes. If they bother to turn up to vote that is.


I know you weren’t being dismissive but having no interest in their politics (and who could blame them) isn’t the same as total ignorance of it. Just so we’re on the same page.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So it follows that if that referendum happens, those you mentioned will be unburdened by the knowledge of the stupidity of all the politics up there and unaware of what a basket case economically it is and vote yes. If they bother to turn up to vote that is.


I know you weren’t being dismissive but having no interest in their politics (and who could blame them) isn’t the same as total ignorance of it. Just so we’re on the same page.

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

_blaaz

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

NI is also.part of ireland


Indeed its links are much closer to ireland....the sea seperates it from scotland,whereas theres like 200 odd land crossings with the free state



Why would people want to ruled from westminister :pac:...its one of poorest regions in northern europe....whereas the free state is one of richest countries in the world

Unless your impling people want to be poor

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

Wasn’t trying to goad anyone. Just stating an opinion and facts
Northern Ireland isn’t part of the United Kingdom (also a fact)
No debate about your frankly lazy ‘fat cats’ remark. The scale of ‘fat cats’ in Dublin and London doesn’t need debate. We don’t have millionaires trying to drive our country out of the EU for their own financial benefit.

Fact is the Irish government have done more and worked more in brexit for NI farmers and industry than their UK counterparts, whose responsibility it actually is.


You don’t like what I posted cos you can’t respond. With facts.

RobMc59

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

NI is also.part of ireland


Indeed its links are much closer to ireland....the sea seperates it from scotland,whereas theres like 200 odd land crossings with the free state



Why would people want to ruled from westminister :pac:...its one of poorest regions in northern europe....whereas the free state is one of richest countries in the world

Unless your impling people want to be poor

You do realise NI is part of the UK as per the GFA?The apple doesn't fall far from the tree,the close ties between NI and Scotland are unbreakable,Ireland showed its true colours over minor fishing disputes with its bully boy gunboat diplomacy in Dundalk bay which isn't forgotten.