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How long before Irish reunification?

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    #212
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    cgcsb wrote: »
    There are parallels between the two, elevating patriotism over short termist economics. However, that's where the similarity ends.

    It goes a lot deeper than that. You promise this golden future "in the medium to long term" based on nothing. you just assume the economics will work themselves out.


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    #213
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You realise that these partitionists don't even want to look at data. They are full of biased assumptions that are useful to no-one or no debate.

    Worse than the most beligerent Unionist tbh. And very small in number.

    we have been looking at the report that was linked to. and that report admits that it doesnt really have any data to base its assumptions on. Assumptions that you have taken as gospel.


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    #214
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »

    On to the dole then for all those civil servants in the north.

    Perhaps the public servants in NI could transfer into moneytree harvesting or become unicorn shepherds?


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    #215
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    cgcsb wrote: »
    There is a parallel in the way that it's nationalistic rather than economic, but Brexit is based on greed, racism and classism.

    You think a UI does not share some of those latter traits?
    Do you think Unionist thought will be given a voice in this new UI of yours?

    There is a subtle but overt narrative of 'it's our turn now' in regards to giving Unionists the heave-ho.

    Sure, we had someone earlier espouse gentle ethnic cleansing.
    Irish people are human and are guilty of the same human traits of racism, bigotry, greed and classism.


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    #216
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    markodaly wrote: »
    Jaysus! Really? We cannot even implement BusConnects or a Metro line in South Dublin, you think undoing partition will be easy?

    The benchmark here is Germany and even today, 25 years on, they still struggle with aspects of reunification. Irish governance is not really noted for its efficiency, robust transparency or good execution.

    In my opinion, any unification of the Island will be a massive undertaking, the biggest thing the country has tried to do, by far.

    Also, we have not de-carbonised the economy, in fact, we are well behind and one of the worst performers of the EU.

    We can do those things though. The biggest barrier to those things is: moaners, anti-progess undesirables and partitionists.


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    #217
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Love it. It is gonna come as some shock to our resident partitionists that their own government have a great deal of work done on modeling various unification scenarios.

    Modelling using what exactly? They've no data available. See the link you provided in the previous page for confirmation on this.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is a noted falsehood of partitionists to try and state that there will always be a 'cost' to northern Ireland.

    Well every shred of economic data that we have on NI would back it up. Also, the major challenge that the RoI faces in the short to medium term, housing, health, transport ....., are self inflicted. They've resulted from poor planning, investment and decision making by elected representatives.
    _blaaz wrote: »
    Surely it would be good thing to bring up quality of life for citizens in the occupied 6 counties?

    Quality of life??? It's Northern Ireland not some third world country in Africa. A young person in NI has a brighter future than their counterpart in Dublin or Cork.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    We can do those things though. The biggest barrier to those things is: moaners, anti-progess undesirables and partitionists.

    Just like you can generate a national transport plan, national broadband plan, national children's hospital. Shall I go on? These projects are straightforward in comparison to any of the challenges that a UI would present.


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    #218
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It goes a lot deeper than that. You promise this golden future "in the medium to long term" based on nothing. you just assume the economics will work themselves out.

    I don't think anybody, other than shinner wierdos imagines a 'golden future'. A future united Ireland will have problems, like all modern states, the point being it'll be a lot better than having a failed colony in Ulster. The economics will work out over time, they always do.


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    #219
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    cgcsb wrote: »
    We can do those things though. The biggest barrier to those things is: moaners, anti-progess undesirables and partitionists.

    and this is almost exactly what brexiteers say about remoaners. We cant get it to work because of all the people against it. Nothing to do with the fact that we really have no clue what the end result will be and have a very poor track record on managing any kind of project.


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    #220
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    cgcsb wrote: »
    We can do those things though. The biggest barrier to those things is: moaners, anti-progess undesirables and partitionists.

    So, why can we not implement something simple as some proper Bus lanes in Dublin?

    Saying that we can just do it, does not answer the more pertinent questions of why we **** other things up.


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    #221
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I don't think anybody, other than shinner wierdos imagines a 'golden future'. A future united Ireland will have problems, like all modern states, the point being it'll be a lot better than having a failed colony in Ulster. The economics will work out over time, they always do.

    that is just wishful thinking. nothing else.


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    #222
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,174 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    we have been looking at the report that was linked to. and that report admits that it doesnt really have any data to base its assumptions on. Assumptions that you have taken as gospel.

    ...and your data is where?

    I haven't taken anything as gospel btw...some of that report makes sense to me and some doesn't.

    You read one sentence and that gives you the confidence to rubbish the whole thing. Have you any idea how revealing of your own bias that is?


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    #223
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    ...and your data is where?

    There is no data. that is the problem. And i have intention of potentially destroying our economy to keep the shinners happy. You are proposing a radical change to the country. YOU need to make the case to the electorate. So far you have failed miserably at doing that.


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    #224
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,174 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    So, why can we not implement something simple as some proper Bus lanes in Dublin?

    Saying that we can just do it, does not answer the more pertinent questions of why we **** other things up.

    Unfortunately, reunification will not rid us of incompetent public officials or governments with the wrong policy.


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    #225
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,174 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    There is no data. that is the problem. And i have intention of potentially destroying our economy to keep the shinners happy. You are proposing a radical change to the country. YOU need to make the case to the electorate. So far you have failed miserably at doing that.

    So you didn't read all of the document..as i say, you keep digging away at that hole.


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    #226
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and this is almost exactly what brexiteers say about remoaners. We cant get it to work because of all the people against it. Nothing to do with the fact that we really have no clue what the end result will be and have a very poor track record on managing any kind of project.

    Fair point.

    It's a subtle but effective way to get people to shut up and stifle rational debate. Its the 'you are with us or against us' mantra, where if you are not fully behind a UI/Brexit then you are the enemy, and it will be YOUR fault if it doesn't work.

    Remainers will be blamed when a no deal brexit goes tits up I guess and 'paritionists' (whatever the hell that means) will probably be blamed when a UI goes the same.

    While both those camps will be saying a big, 'I told you so'.


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    #227
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    markodaly wrote: »
    You think a UI does not share some of those latter traits?

    No, quite the opposite, NI was based on those things, it's creation was a great wrong, a UI would end that. The undoing of the northern state would consign it's racist/sectarian/homophobic regressive ideals to the dust bin.
    markodaly wrote: »
    Do you think Unionist thought will be given a voice in this new UI of yours?

    Yes, as much as their numbers allow. Unionists can elect TDs if they chose to vote.
    markodaly wrote: »
    There is a subtle but overt narrative of 'it's our turn now' in regards to giving Unionists the heave-ho.

    What does that mean exactly?
    markodaly wrote: »
    Sure, we had someone earlier espouse gentle ethnic cleansing.

    I wouldn't know anything about that
    markodaly wrote: »
    Irish people are human and are guilty of the same human traits of racism, bigotry, greed and classism.

    Yes this is possible, Irish people can be bad people, what's your point?


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    #228
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The economics will work out over time, they always do.

    So, I guess a no deal Brexit will be OK after all....:rolleyes:


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    #229
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and this is almost exactly what brexiteers say about remoaners. We cant get it to work because of all the people against it. Nothing to do with the fact that we really have no clue what the end result will be and have a very poor track record on managing any kind of project.

    You can literally apply that to every building project as well. What's the point of the Brexit comparison?


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    #230
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,174 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Fair point.

    It's a subtle but effective way to get people to shut up and stifle rational debate. Its the 'you are with us or against us' mantra, where if you are not fully behind a UI/Brexit then you are the enemy, and it will be YOUR fault if it doesn't work.

    Remainers will be blamed when a no deal brexit goes tits up I guess and 'paritionists' (whatever the hell that means) will probably be blamed when a UI goes the same.

    While both those camps will be saying a big, 'I told you so'.

    Are you gonna present any figures or modelling that shows how it will be a disaster mark?

    You are the one spouting about 'rational' debate after all. So rationalise away.


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    #231
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    markodaly wrote: »
    So, why can we not implement something simple as some proper Bus lanes in Dublin?

    Saying that we can just do it, does not answer the more pertinent questions of why we **** other things up.

    Last I checked BusConnects CBC project is ongoing, so it is being done in the present tense.


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    #232
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    that is just wishful thinking. nothing else.

    Wishful thinking beats the defeatism of partionists any day.


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    #233
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Yes, as much as their numbers allow. Unionists can elect TDs if they chose to vote.

    This worked great in the North for Catholics after partition didn't it now!


    What does that mean exactly?

    There is a grain of thought among some here that are salivating at the prospect of putting the boot on the necks of Unionists.


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    #234
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So you didn't read all of the document..as i say, you keep digging away at that hole.

    listen, you and fuaranach clearly have nothing positive to add. Nothing to convince people that a UI is a good thing. I asked for figures to show that it wouldn't bankrupt the country and almost the very first thing i see is that all of the assumptions on the economic impact are based on little or no data. So why read further? they have basically admitted they are making things up. what is to be gained from reading further? If you or fuaranach are going to reply further try to stop yourself posting ad homs. Try to actually address the points i am making.


  • Options
    #235
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Wishful thinking beats the defeatism of partionists any day.

    wishful thinking doesn't beat anything. it achieves nothing.


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    #236
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Wishful thinking beats the defeatism of partionists remainers any day.

    Are you Brois Johnson by any chance?


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    #237
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,174 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    For those persuaded by our partitionists that this joint committee work is a 'Shinner' excercise:

    Here are the members of the committee:
    Deputies: Declan Breathnach (FF)
    Fergus O’Dowd (FG)
    Kathleen Funchion (SF) [Chair]
    Tony McLoughlin (FG)
    Maureen O'Sullivan (IND)
    Sean Sherlock (LAB)
    Brendan Smith (FF)
    Senators: Frances Black (IND)
    Frank Feighan (FG)
    Mark Daly (FF)
    Denis Landy (LAB)
    Gerard Craughwell (IND)
    Niall Ó Donnghaile (SF)

    and those with speaking rights:

    Sammy Wilson (DUP)
    Ian Paisley (DUP)
    Paul Girvan (DUP)
    Gavin Robinson (DUP)
    Nigel Dodds (DUP)
    Emma Pengelly (DUP)
    Gregory Campbell (DUP)
    Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP)
    Jim Shannon (DUP)
    David Simpson (DUP)
    Paul Maskey (SF)
    Chris Hazzard (SF)
    Michelle Gildernew (SF)
    Elisha McCallion (SF)
    Mickey Brady (SF)
    Barry McElduff (SF)
    Francie Molloy (SF)
    Sylvia Hermon (IND)

    I don't think you could construct a better cross section of relevant opinion tbh.


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    #238
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    markodaly wrote: »
    So, I guess a no deal Brexit will be OK after all....:rolleyes:

    Well actually yes, over a long time it will. Problem is that Brexit has no benefits at all, even from a nationalistic point of view, so the short term pain will be for nothing at all.


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    #239
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are you gonna present any figures or modelling that shows how it will be a disaster mark?

    You are the one spouting about 'rational' debate after all. So rationalise away.

    They've required a subvention for the last 60 years

    It's over £10 billion a year and getting bigger.

    How'm I doing Francie?

    Now, give us your breakdown of how it gets paid for.


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    #240
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,025 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are you gonna present any figures or modelling that shows how it will be a disaster mark?

    You are the one spouting about 'rational' debate after all. So rationalise away.

    Well, first of all, the North is run at a deficit of £4,939 per person.
    That is £8,890,200,000 per year.

    How do we bridge that gap in the medium or short term?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-48431630


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    #241
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    15-20 years
    markodaly wrote: »
    This worked great in the North for Catholics after partition didn't it now!

    Fortunately we're a progressive nation, we don't stop people from owning property, voting, gaining employment or housing based on their ethno-religious background. We're a republic with a constitution and anti discrimination laws. This isn't the rotten NI Brit supremacy experiment.
    markodaly wrote: »
    There is a grain of thought among some here that are salivating at the prospect of putting the boot on the necks of Unionists.

    Perhaps that is true for some, I think most of those people are Northern Catholics who's families suffered through the orangist state (1922-1997) and are full of resentment, it's understandable that there would be hostility, but we have a government and laws and a constitution to protect minorities from bitter people holding grudges.


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