2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

Farawayhome

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin's success has definitely hit the GAA coffers according to Breheny -

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublins-dominance-hits-gaas-financial-returns-37791242.html

Taking 2 million every year definitely hits the GAA's coffers.

gormdubhgorm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Taking 2 million every year definitely hits the GAA's coffers.

They keep the Leinster Council going though....
Catch 22

Farawayhome

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They keep the Leinster Council going though....
Catch 22

You've just linked to an article which states that attendances are falling off a cliff.

gormdubhgorm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You've just linked to an article which states that attendances are falling off a cliff.

I know but Dublin draws the most crowds in Leinster and brings the most funds for the other counties in Leinster.
The attendances are falling, but the Dubs are still the biggest draw in Leinster.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0813/984824-the-awkward-irony-of-gaas-attendance-problem/

threeball

Farawayhome wrote: »

Taking 2 million every year definitely hits the GAA's coffers.

They won't react to this until it's too late as usual. They'll lose massive ground to rugby and that will be that. The game will struggle forever more.

corny

Weren't attendances on the slide before Dublin became dominant? I'm nearly sure they were.

Its multi faceted imo.

-You have a bunch of traditionally well supported teams on their knees.
-Stagnant wages/rising costs haven't helped.
-Competition from successful rugby teams.
-The game just isn't as good a watch as it used to be. I know i despise the level of cheating and gamesmanship thats become the norm at inter county level. I'm sure others agree.
-Blanket defence.

Its an easy stone to throw 'Dublin dominance'... but its not unusual to have a team or two streets ahead. People still came to the games back then. I'd look elsewhere.

Fr Tod Umptious

corny wrote: »

Weren't attendances on the slide before Dublin became dominant? I'm nearly sure they were.

Its multi faceted imo.

-You have a bunch of traditionally well supported teams on their knees.
-Stagnant wages/rising costs haven't helped.
-Competition from successful rugby teams.
-The game just isn't as good a watch as it used to be. I know i despise the level of cheating and gamesmanship thats become the norm at inter county level. I'm sure others agree.
-Blanket defence.

Its an easy stone to throw 'Dublin dominance'... but its not unusual to have a team or two streets ahead. People still came to the games back then. I'd look elsewhere.

From about 2004 to 2011 Dublin needed a stand alone QF rather than a double header because demand was so strong.

Since they won in 2011 they have not needed that stand alone QF.

So demand for Dublin has been on the slide since 2011, which is not out of the ordinary, because in many cases the journey is what attracts people.

OldMrBrennan83

The way the whole country is now doesn't lend itself well to high overall attendances. We're high on the bandwagon scale as a people too, so right now a selfie at the rugger is too of the list for many.

The_Honeybadger

corny wrote: »

Weren't attendances on the slide before Dublin became dominant? I'm nearly sure they were.

Its multi faceted imo.

-You have a bunch of traditionally well supported teams on their knees.
-Stagnant wages/rising costs haven't helped.
-Competition from successful rugby teams.
-The game just isn't as good a watch as it used to be. I know i despise the level of cheating and gamesmanship thats become the norm at inter county level. I'm sure others agree.
-Blanket defence.

Its an easy stone to throw 'Dublin dominance'... but its not unusual to have a team or two streets ahead. People still came to the games back then. I'd look elsewhere.

Attendances peaked during the 00’s and have been falling for over a decade since. They have fallen off a cliff just recently though, down 18% iirc for 2018 vs 2017 despite more games with the Super 8’s. I think there was an inevitability about who would win it last year that wasn’t there previous years.

Certainly not all on Dublin but I think it’s part of it.

I think people are absolutely sick of traveling to Croke Park for everything at this stage too. I attended Kerry v Galway double header in Croke Park last year, the attendance was very poor. Why drag these counties up to Dublin when they could nearly fill the Gaelic grounds between them? The novelty of Croke Park is gone for a lot of counties and supporters now.

Edit: I would add that while having a dominant team is not unusual the level of dominance we are experiencing with Dublin now is absolutely unprecedented. No team has ever dominated the league and championship in the way that they have this decade.

They will of course be beaten some day but they are as close to unbeatable as you will get in high level sport. It really does take the edge off the games, particularly early on. Even the semi last year v Galway we all knew Galway could not win and the attendance told that story. There was also fears the final would not sell out but it did in the end.

Bonniedog

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So demand for Dublin has been on the slide since 2011, which is not out of the ordinary, because in many cases the journey is what attracts people.

I think that is true. I haven't been to a Dublin football match outside of Dublin in league or championship since 2013. Whereas at one time you would thousands of Dubs travelling to places like Aughrim and Carlow for O'Byrne cup games. which were in many ways more enjoyable.


Only the hard core goes to league games now, and increasingly even most championship games up to semi final, unless it happens to be on of the big guns. It is a large hard core but nowhere close to the sort of crowds Dublin got in the "famine years."


I would once have attributed the huge crowds of the noughties - even 60,000 for an ulster final in CP! - to the fact that people had a lot of disposable income.


The current upturn does not seem to have had same impact, although perhaps people are more burdened by debt and credit restrictions?

Have said it before, we are not great people for supporting live sports unless they have an event aspect. Compare that even to smallish cities in England where bad soccer teams get big by our standards crowds week in week out. And that with the competition of other better teams not far distant, and TV. Same with English premier rugby which competes reasonably well with soccer, Leicester being a good example.


A nation of couch potatoes!

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

I think that is true. I haven't been to a Dublin football match outside of Dublin in league or championship since 2013. Whereas at one time you would thousands of Dubs travelling to places like Aughrim and Carlow for O'Byrne cup games. which were in many ways more enjoyable.


Only the hard core goes to league games now, and increasingly even most championship games up to semi final, unless it happens to be on of the big guns. It is a large hard core but nowhere close to the sort of crowds Dublin got in the "famine years."


I would once have attributed the huge crowds of the noughties - even 60,000 for an ulster final in CP! - to the fact that people had a lot of disposable income.


The current upturn does not seem to have had same impact, although perhaps people are more burdened by debt and credit restrictions?

Have said it before, we are not great people for supporting live sports unless they have an event aspect. Compare that even to smallish cities in England where bad soccer teams get big by our standards crowds week in week out. And that with the competition of other better teams not far distant, and TV. Same with English premier rugby which competes reasonably well with soccer, Leicester being a good example.


A nation of couch potatoes!

I have a brother over in London and there is a non-league (national league level) soccer club near him. So I have been 'following' thier club channel on you tube. There was even one with an AGM video.

They are punching above thier weight, but they almost could be a GAA club.
I thought to myself that is the English version of the GAA, a real community thing.
They appeal for volunteers that could help the club if they have the spare time.
They have a club lotto, looking for ways to save money all the time, they do not even stay overnight for away games if possible. Their home ground holds about 7k but the average attendance is over the 2k mark. If I get the chance I would like to go to game to see does it have that 'GAA feel' to it.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have a brother over in London and there is a non-league (national league level) soccer club near him. So I have been 'following' thier club channel on you tube. There was even one with an AGM video.

They are punching above thier weight, but they almost could be a GAA club.
I thought to myself that is the English version of the GAA, a real community thing.
They appeal for volunteers that could help the club if they have the spare time.
They have a club lotto, looking for ways to save money all the time, they do not even stay overnight for away games if possible. Their home ground holds about 7k but the average attendance is over the 2k mark. If I get the chance I would like to go to game to see does it have that 'GAA feel' to it.

It's not Dulwich Hamlet is it?

The_Honeybadger

Bonniedog wrote: »

I think that is true. I haven't been to a Dublin football match outside of Dublin in league or championship since 2013. Whereas at one time you would thousands of Dubs travelling to places like Aughrim and Carlow for O'Byrne cup games. which were in many ways more enjoyable.


Only the hard core goes to league games now, and increasingly even most championship games up to semi final, unless it happens to be on of the big guns. It is a large hard core but nowhere close to the sort of crowds Dublin got in the "famine years."


I would once have attributed the huge crowds of the noughties - even 60,000 for an ulster final in CP! - to the fact that people had a lot of disposable income.


The current upturn does not seem to have had same impact, although perhaps people are more burdened by debt and credit restrictions?

Have said it before, we are not great people for supporting live sports unless they have an event aspect. Compare that even to smallish cities in England where bad soccer teams get big by our standards crowds week in week out. And that with the competition of other better teams not far distant, and TV. Same with English premier rugby which competes reasonably well with soccer, Leicester being a good example.


A nation of couch potatoes!

I don’t think the big attendances in the 00’s were to do with income. There is a lot more Tv coverage now so people can choose to stay at home and watch it on the couch. Don’t forget also that the 00’s followed on from a truly golden age in football during the 90’s where there was a different winner every year and anybody could beat anybody. It was a brilliant time to be following football and that followed on in to the early 00’s with Meath, Galway Tyrone and Armagh picking up titles.

Croke Park was also newly renovated and there was a novelty factor there.

There are a lot of factors as to why attendances are falling and it doesn’t necessarily have to come down to one thing.

threeball

Until the GAA give the public and average Joe a product they can follow the attendances will continue to fall.
People want to be part of something and feel invested. They want to be taken on a journey. You can't do that with a handful of league games and a championship that could last 2 games but if you go longer the games are so irregular it's hard to plan anything.

People follow English soccer teams as they know they have 6 to 8 months of a journey to go on where once or twice a week they can invest in that team. The rugby has given people 20 games a year to get involved in and following. Connaught had no rugby tradition but regularly get 7,000 in the sportsground.

You can just about invest in your own county in GAA but the neutral really won't be too bothered and as for people new to the game there's very little to latch on to. Kabbadi gets more interest in the UK than GAA. The hurling showed last year that you will get decent crowds when there's a competitive structured competition to follow. The football has neither structure nor competitiveness as it stands and so people aren't bothered.

Bonniedog

Bonniedog wrote: »

I think that is true. I haven't been to a Dublin football match outside of Dublin in league or championship since 2013. Whereas at one time you would thousands of Dubs travelling to places like Aughrim and Carlow for O'Byrne cup games. which were in many ways more enjoyable.


Only the hard core goes to league games now, and increasingly even most championship games up to semi final, unless it happens to be on of the big guns. It is a large hard core but nowhere close to the sort of crowds Dublin got in the "famine years."


I would once have attributed the huge crowds of the noughties - even 60,000 for an ulster final in CP! - to the fact that people had a lot of disposable income.


The current upturn does not seem to have had same impact, although perhaps people are more burdened by debt and credit restrictions?

Have said it before, we are not great people for supporting live sports unless they have an event aspect. Compare that even to smallish cities in England where bad soccer teams get big by our standards crowds week in week out. And that with the competition of other better teams not far distant, and TV. Same with English premier rugby which competes reasonably well with soccer, Leicester being a good example.


A nation of couch potatoes!

Indeed.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not Dulwich Hamlet is it?

Nope - Sutton United

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

Until the GAA give the public and average Joe a product they can follow the attendances will continue to fall.
People want to be part of something and feel invested. They want to be taken on a journey. You can't do that with a handful of league games and a championship that could last 2 games but if you go longer the games are so irregular it's hard to plan anything.

People follow English soccer teams as they know they have 6 to 8 months of a journey to go on where once or twice a week they can invest in that team. The rugby has given people 20 games a year to get involved in and following. Connaught had no rugby tradition but regularly get 7,000 in the sportsground.

You can just about invest in your own county in GAA but the neutral really won't be too bothered and as for people new to the game there's very little to latch on to. Kabbadi gets more interest in the UK than GAA. The hurling showed last year that you will get decent crowds when there's a competitive structured competition to follow. The football has neither structure nor competitiveness as it stands and so people aren't bothered.

I don't think anyone can argue with this post.
A competition needs real momentum a build of excitement at the start, ups and downs of a team. Tension/needle/rivalry that is what draws the neutral in from the beginning.

But this is the GAA they only have belatedly copped on that more games with teams of the same level mean a better championship.
They have to jump through so many hoops and layers of GAA bureaucracy I am amazed they even managed that!

You would think with the football it should be easier more competitive teams around the same level, all you have to do is put them in groups of the same level and make it home and away.
Or even base the groups on regions if required - Imagine Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Louth and Meath in the same group?
But no they have to have some kind of half assed system where they try and please everyone and please no one.

I remember years ago I went to see Louth play Meath in Parnell Park.
At the time Meath had dipped slightly, and Louth were improving.
I was a neutral Dub went because it was a nice day, and thought it would be competitive with a bit of needle in it.
I wasn't disappointed it was great entertainment - Louth fans as passionate as anything booting every ball with thier team.
It was great, I don't even remember the result I just remember the passion, the tension the excitement.

If there was more of type of games people would go to them.
All they have to is market the flipping things properly besides just saying 'be there all the way'. Jazz it up a bit like a mini version of the 125 GAA celebrations which was well done, make it each game an occasion.

But no this is the GAA why would they bother properly promoting stuff when people are going to come anyway, sure isn't it grand the way it is..... :rolleyes:

Bonniedog

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed.

I said away FOOTBALL games.

During same period I've played, just about!, managed, and watched well over a hundred county hurling games and club matches

We are talking about the reasons people do not follow the Dublin FOOTBALLERS as much.

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't think anyone can argue with this post.
A competition needs real momentum a build of excitement at the start, ups and downs of a team. Tension/needle/rivalry that is what draws the neutral in from the beggining.

But this is the GAA they only have belatedly copped on that more games with teams of the same level mean a better championship.
They have to jump through so many hoops and layers of GAA bureaucracy I am amazed they even managed that!

You would think with the football it should be easier more competitive teams around the same level, all you have to do is put them in groups of the same level and make it home and away.
Or even base the groups on regions if required - Imagine Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Louth and Meath in the same group?
But no they have to have some kind of half assed system where they try and please everyone and please no one.

I remember years ago I went to see Louth play Meath in Parnell Park.
At the time Meath had dipped slightly, and Louth were improving.
I was a neutral Dub went because it was a nice day, and thought it would be competitive with a bit of needle in it.
I wasn't disappointed it was great entertainment - Louth fans as passionate as anything booting every ball with thier team.
It was great, I don't even remember the result I just remember the passion, the tension the excitement.

If there was more of type of games people would go to them.
All they have to is market the flipping things properly besides just saying 'be there all the way'. Jazz it up a bit like a mini version of the 125 GAA celebrations which was well done, make it each game an occasion.

But no this is the GAA why would they bother properly promoting stuff when people are going to come anyway, sure isn't it grand the way it is..... :rolleyes:

Its this attitude that will eventually sink them. We've seen with Newbridge and the Miller sagas that they have little to no social awareness. They aren't reacting and won't react. I think football will decline so badly in the next 5yrs that the attendance will literally half. The way they plan to tier things is actually going to make things worse but they think it will make things better. Tiering is correct but not in the way they plan to do it. A division 4 team could get a really good group of players come through but it could take 2 years of getting promoted before they are allowed compete in the all ireland. Thats just wrong. The club will become king in those counties and county will die. We'll end up with a bigger chasm than we have now.

Dr. Bre

It’s mad when dubs weren’t winning all Ireland’s the matches were selling out. The fans craved this is our year. Now Dubs winning every year and the interest has gone down. The final is the only problem getting tickets it seems. Quarters semis always sold out . Even Leinster finals sold well

threeball

Dr. Bre wrote: »

It’s mad when dubs weren’t winning all Ireland’s the matches were selling out. The fans craved this is our year. Now Dubs winning every year and the interest has gone down. The final is the only problem getting tickets it seems. Quarters semis always sold out . Even Leinster finals sold well

Not just the Dubs. The last few finals that kk won weren't even appreciated by the fans. At the 2016 final v Galway most left as soon as the final whistle went. There were more Galway fans in the stadium for the presentation than there were kk fans. It's human nature. We all crave what we don't or can't have and once we get used to having what we once craved it becomes worthless. I think at this stage most dubs would love the 5 in a row as it's history making but very few would be bothered if they were knocked out next season. Alot would welcome it.

I know I would have little interest in seeing my own county win more than 2 in a row. It's nowhere near as special.

Bonniedog

threeball wrote: »

Not just the Dubs. The last few finals that kk won weren't even appreciated by the fans. At the 2016 final v Galway most left as soon as the final whistle went. There were more Galway fans in the stadium for the presentation than there were kk fans. It's human nature. We all crave what we don't or can't have and once we get used to having what we once craved it becomes worthless. I think at this stage most dubs would love the 5 in a row as it's history making but very few would be bothered if they were knocked out next season. Alot would welcome it.

I know I would have little interest in seeing my own county win more than 2 in a row. It's nowhere near as special.

No doubt I will be like a lunatic when Dublin are involved in a close game at the end of the year -presuming it is the end of the year! - but would be more disappointed with the hurler not qualifying out of the Leinster than the footballers not doing the five.


Disappointment will also depend largely on who it might be defeats them! If they do win 5 then that would be the end. Just as many people were hoping for an end to Kilkenny's dominance/

BonnieSituation

Dr. Bre wrote: »

It’s mad when dubs weren’t winning all Ireland’s the matches were selling out. The fans craved this is our year. Now Dubs winning every year and the interest has gone down. The final is the only problem getting tickets it seems. Quarters semis always sold out . Even Leinster finals sold well

It will happen to Mayo as well and the Toronto Maple Leafs and Liverpool.

Part of the joy is the hope that that is your year.

Coillte_Bhoy

threeball wrote: »

Its this attitude that will eventually sink them. We've seen with Newbridge and the Miller sagas that they have little to no social awareness. They aren't reacting and won't react. I think football will decline so badly in the next 5yrs that the attendance will literally half. The way they plan to tier things is actually going to make things worse but they think it will make things better. Tiering is correct but not in the way they plan to do it. A division 4 team could get a really good group of players come through but it could take 2 years of getting promoted before they are allowed compete in the all ireland. Thats just wrong. The club will become king in those counties and county will die. We'll end up with a bigger chasm than we have now.

Sorry but what proposal are you talking about? The GAA have given no indication whatsoever that they are going to implement a tiered cship.

And a Div 4 team isn't suddenly going to come up with a group of players out of nowhere that might be capable of challenging

Coillte_Bhoy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It will happen to Mayo as well and the Toronto Maple Leafs and Liverpool.

Part of the joy is the hope that that is your year.

Well it wont happen to Liverpool, their support is only going to grow, you're not comparing like with like

Absolutely it will happen to Mayo, but probably not until (ya i know i know) we win 2 or 3 in a row, but the support we have at present is unreal. We were no different to a lot of similar sized counties back in the 80's in terms of support but its the 'journey' that is attracting more and more every year. And whenever it tails off we will still have had a generation growing up with the whole Mayo 4 Sam bandwagon and thats being passed onto the next generation so i think we will still have one of the biggest supports for years to come.

seligehgit

Mod Note

Not a lot of conversation about the 2019 championship within more recent posts.

Can we please revert back to discussion of the topic at hand.

The 2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship.

Thanks

Noelmcgov28

The Cavan vs Armagh is bound to be a close one. Despite the impressive performance against Monaghan, Cavan are still vulnerable when closing out the game.

Armagh you can never write off. I say it'll go to a replay. Big occasion for both sides I say the nerves will show on the day.

seligehgit

Noelmcgov28 wrote: »

The Cavan vs Armagh is bound to be a close one. Despite the impressive performance against Monaghan, Cavan are still vulnerable when closing out the game.

Armagh you can never write off. I say it'll go to a replay. Big occasion for both sides I say the nerves will show on the day.

I've a fancy for Cavan myself. Impressed me in our league match earlier in the spring.

Great win over Monaghan irrespective of speculation re sames demise.

Armagh had their own issues in closing out the game against Down,nearly the it away.Not so sure you're a tad nostalgic of the great Orchard teams of the nineties and noughties.Lot of talent up front.

Anybody fancy Limerick to turn over Cork in Munster?I no longer know what to expect of Cork.

dobman88

seligehgit wrote: »

Anybody fancy Limerick to turn over Cork in Munster?I no longer know what to expect of Cork.

Unthinkable imo. As bad as cork are, limerick struggled in division 4 this year and I think caught an average to poor Tipp team on the hop. As a Kerry man i have enjoyed corks demise but if they lose to Limerick itll be a brand new low.

C__MC

Cork recently beat Dublin in kilkenny, will be hard for limerick to back up the win v tipp.
They'll win tomorrow but Kerry will beat them.