Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

thomond2006

My count of 9/10 releases in the summer might not be so wacky after all. The failure to qualify is pretty poor considering Saracens' approach.

Vinnie222

thomond2006 wrote: »

My count of 9/10 releases in the summer might not be so wacky after all. The failure to qualify is pretty poor considering Saracens' approach.

Get off the keyboard and go over to support your team. **** talk

Clegg

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Get off the keyboard and go over to support your team. **** talk

He's not wrong tho.

Vinnie222

Clegg wrote: »

He's not wrong tho.

So we played poor today

thomond2006

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Get off the keyboard and go over to support your team. **** talk

What is it that I said?

Against actual contenders, Munster achieved six points in four matches. It's a poor return. There's a good number of players that should be moved on. Munster trimmed the squad for this year already.

Clegg

Vinnie222 wrote: »

So we played poor today

Munster have played poorly for most of the season. Today's performance was one of the better efforts. Which is a big worry really. Racing aren't half the side they were a few years ago.

I've seen a few posts on Munsterfans and Reddit saying Munster should now concentrate solely on winning the Pro 14. They won't do that either with the levels of performance we've seen this season.

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

My count of 9/10 releases in the summer might not be so wacky after all. The failure to qualify is pretty poor considering Saracens' approach.

I think the draw against Racing is what will hurt most. You need to be at least winning all your home games to get to qfs and one if not 2 away matches. Didn't help that we didn't get lbp in the 2 losses.

Glasgow can get max of 16/17 points, don't think Gloucester will win so say 14/15 points. A lbp and tbp vs Ospreys would have put us on 17 and could have just about scraped in on 17 if Saracens lost to Racing. There's still a very slim chance but it's relying on at least 3 results so not likely.

But want to be qualifying on your own merits. It was a tough group in fairness, winner and semi-finalist from last season so on paper toughest group this season.

thomond2006

The lineup next weekend will say a lot about the prospects for certain players. Since we're mathematically not out there's still a responsibility to put out a strong side but it's the Ospreys. They have some internationals back but they're still awful.

Casey or Healy should really get a start. Wycherley if available after his RTTP should replace Holland. Coombes or JOS should be in 23 instead of Botha. Daly deserves a shot after impressing recently.

Superfoods

Was running from one house to another earlier and switched on Newstalk thinking the game would be on

Not sure who was on but the discussion was not pro Van Grann. It was only in first half and I was travelling when they scored first try. Anyway some of points made.

Press are very easy on Van Grann, when they are doing press conference he goes around and shakes everyone hand which is nice. The person said this seemed to give him more leeway than it should
Van Grann is a laptop guy and spends a lot of time on it. This worked in the Bulls? I think he said. So far his training is scattered and this was shown in the Ulster match which he said resembled a training game. Players didn't seem to know what to do

I didn't catch anymore but it was interesting. The game wasn't lost at that stage, wasn't even half time. First time I seen the press/media question Van Grann

Buer

There might be one or two changes but given Munster aren't out, as you say, they won't be using it as an exercise to give guys experience.

I don't think there's anyone there I could see being dropped, to be honest. The options simply aren't there. There aren't others demanding selection.

Superfoods

Superfoods wrote: »

Was running from one house to another earlier and switched on Newstalk thinking the game would be on

Not sure who was on but the discussion was not pro Van Grann. It was only in first half and I was travelling when they scored first try. Anyway some of points made.

Press are very easy on Van Grann, when they are doing press conference he goes around and shakes everyone hand which is nice. The person said this seemed to give him more leeway than it should
Van Grann is a laptop guy and spends a lot of time on it. This worked in the Bulls? I think he said. So far his training is scattered and this was shown in the Ulster match which he said resembled a training game. Players didn't seem to know what to do

I didn't catch anymore but it was interesting. The game wasn't lost at that stage, wasn't even half time. First time I seen the press/media question Van Grann

A relative of mine is convinced that Munster was a convenient way for Rassie to get rid of VanGrann.

Bridge93

Deleted User wrote: »

A relative of mine is convinced that Munster was a convenient way for Rassie to get rid of VanGrann.

Does this imply he was going to be part of Rassie’s backroom team?

Kirk Van Houten

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A relative of mine is convinced that Munster was a convenient way for Rassie to get rid of VanGrann.

My Granny doesn't agree with that. Does that even it out?

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

There might be one or two changes but given Munster aren't out, as you say, they won't be using it as an exercise to give guys experience.

I don't think there's anyone there I could see being dropped, to be honest. The options simply aren't there. There aren't others demanding selection.

I don't think that's true. There's a good number of squad players who have impressed. I don't think bringing in say Knox, Wycherley, Healy and Daly would be very detrimental to the starting team considering they're playing Ospreys.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think that's true. There's a good number of squad players who have impressed.

They've impressed but not to the point where I see them getting into the team. Is one of the back row, for example, going to be dropped for FW? Perhaps they'll play him at lock instead of Holland but he's simply not a second row.

Loughman is another who has delivered but again, Munster aren't going to bench Kilcoyne. Nor do I see one of the back three being shelved for someone like Daly.

Munster are likely out but all it will really take is Racing to win against Saracens and I'd expect Munster to go through. Big ask but not impossible. With that in mind, I don't see JVG rotating much at all.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Panda Killa wrote: »

Matt Gallagher has also played left wing for Sarries, his contract runs out in 6 months and will not be renewed.
Talks have taken place between his reps and Munster, but expect no announcement until after the 6nations is what I'm hearing....from sources unreliable after a few pints

He is good enough that any irish team would be expected to check in on him if they are considering anything in the back 3 but not good enough to make a big difference to the team.

Eod100

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A relative of mine is convinced that Munster was a convenient way for Rassie to get rid of VanGrann.

Not the first time I heard something like that. Argument is that Erasmus would have kept him if he was good coach but dont think its necessarily as black and white as that

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

The lineup next weekend will say a lot about the prospects for certain players. Since we're mathematically not out there's still a responsibility to put out a strong side but it's the Ospreys. They have some internationals back but they're still awful.

Casey or Healy should really get a start. Wycherley if available after his RTTP should replace Holland. Coombes or JOS should be in 23 instead of Botha. Daly deserves a shot after impressing recently.

Yeah mathematically we are still in it but result in Racing Saracens will decide a lot. Gloucester will probably lose, Exeter might not (but should) get tbp. But it's all the one unless Racing beat Saracens away and that's not a guarantee. Could all be over come ko if those 2 results dont go our way or in Racing Saracens game.

salmocab

Superfoods wrote: »

Was running from one house to another earlier and switched on Newstalk thinking the game would be on

Not sure who was on but the discussion was not pro Van Grann. It was only in first half and I was travelling when they scored first try. Anyway some of points made.

Press are very easy on Van Grann, when they are doing press conference he goes around and shakes everyone hand which is nice. The person said this seemed to give him more leeway than it should
Van Grann is a laptop guy and spends a lot of time on it. This worked in the Bulls? I think he said. So far his training is scattered and this was shown in the Ulster match which he said resembled a training game. Players didn't seem to know what to do

I didn't catch anymore but it was interesting. The game wasn't lost at that stage, wasn't even half time. First time I seen the press/media question Van Grann

Was it Downey and Wood on?

CatFromHue

It was Hugh Farrelly when he was on the Paper Review

Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

My count of 9/10 releases in the summer might not be so wacky after all. The failure to qualify is pretty poor considering Saracens' approach.

The question (as noted above) is who do you replace them with? We can't do a mass clear-out without having enough warm bodies to fill the void.

This isn't a JVG problem, this has been building for 7 or 8 years. The Munster academy hasn't produced a real international quality player in nearly a decade.

Bringing in Saffers and IQ players from wherever they can be found has given us a sticky plaster but the wound is still festering away.

declanflynn

Former Former wrote: »

The question (as noted above) is who do you replace them with? We can't do a mass clear-out without having enough warm bodies to fill the void.

This isn't a JVG problem, this has been building for 7 or 8 years. The Munster academy hasn't produced a real international quality player in nearly a decade.

Bringing in Saffers and IQ players from wherever they can be found has given us a sticky plaster but the wound is still festering away.

Munster havnt had a top level 10 since O'Gara retired, that's the biggest problem.
Other problems, not enough local players, constant changes in management and coaching staff, a few top players went overseas, Matthewson (top quality player) wasn't kept on

lawrencesummers

Some people are completely losing the run of themselves.

Munster are still a damm good team and not qualifying from that pool with Racing and Sarries is nothing to be ashamed of. Either team are good enough to win the competition and we put it up to them better than we have in previous seasons. We have beaten Exeter and drawn away with them before.

Munster lack depth but the first team is a top European team that needs to realise very quickly the league is the realistic target, finishing top Of the conference a home semi final is a must do to have a chance of silverware and avoid a group of death for the Heineken cup next season.

Clegg

declanflynn wrote: »

Munster havnt had a top level 10 since O'Gara retired, that's the biggest problem.
Other problems, not enough local players, constant changes in management and coaching staff, a few top players went overseas, Matthewson (top quality player) wasn't kept on

I think the tight 5 forwards are now a far bigger problem than 10. Apart from Kilcoyne I don't think any of your tight 5 would feature in the 23 for any other major side in Europe. Against the best sides they constantly get blown away. That's putting the backrow under huge pressure and giving the half backs nothing to work with.

Burkie1203

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Munster lack depth but the first team is a top European team that needs to realise very quickly the league is the realistic target, finishing top Of the conference a home semi final is a must do to have a chance of silverware and avoid a group of death for the Heineken cup next season.

The first XV is far from being a top European team. The way the group's fall and home QFs have gotten Munster to SFs but that tends to paper over things. Earls, Murray and POM are the last home produced players who have been regular internationals. But all 3 are in 30s now

Tight 5 is not international standard which is largely the requirement now. Only Kilcoyne of that group is up there.

Backrow is a major problem. POM and Stander are/nearly in 30s now. JOD is not a 7 but is a very good 6/8 but is shoehorned in because his form has been so good
Cloete and Botha are fairly average at European level

The backline look confused and lost. That phase about 65 min or so yesterday where the ball was being flung behind people 2 or 3 times was indicative of the issues.

thomond2006

Former Former wrote: »

The question (as noted above) is who do you replace them with? We can't do a mass clear-out without having enough warm bodies to fill the void.

This isn't a JVG problem, this has been building for 7 or 8 years. The Munster academy hasn't produced a real international quality player in nearly a decade.

Bringing in Saffers and IQ players from wherever they can be found has given us a sticky plaster but the wound is still festering away.

There are players close to leaving the academy that can step up. I was also assuming that DDA and Snyman would be signed.

If we're talking the last decade: DOC2 and Johnny Holland come to mind as players who could have been internationals but for injury. DOC2 had broken into the team when POM was injured and looked great. Then injuries struck and he never got back to that level. There's probably more names that don't come to mind now.

The young talent pool now is as good as we've seen for years. Munster had more U20s representation than in previous seasons.

Buer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Munster are still a damm good team and not qualifying from that pool with Racing and Sarries is nothing to be ashamed of. Either team are good enough to win the competition and we put it up to them better than we have in previous seasons. We have beaten Exeter and drawn away with them before.

Some of the commentary and doom is over the top but this is a bit too far on the other end of the spectrum. Munster are a good side with good players. They were drawn in a terrible pool but it turned out to be not as bad as originally thought.

Racing are a very strong side but not as good as people are making out. They've failed to win at home 4 times already this season in the T14. Munster should absolutely have beaten them at home and also sent a weakened Saracens side packing with nothing earned. If they had achieved those two very reasonable asks, Munster would almost be sorted for a second place spot and the quarter finals (pending a comfortable win in Round 6).

A lot of comment has centred around the academy, need for signings etc. but the biggest issue by a distance for me is the staff off the field. JVG is in in his 3rd season now and I have not seen any significant change or improvement in play. As soon as a team puts it up to them, the plan is to batten down the hatches and feed Stander, Farrell, Scannell and Kilcoyne repeatedly hoping the opposition yield the gain line.

There was signs of evolution in the early stages of this season but as soon as the bigger games arrived, it was ditched for the tried and untrusted. They will not beat the best teams like that who are too physical and disciplined to be broken down so easily.

Depth is undoubtedly a problem but I do believe that a lot of the talent is there but needs proper coaching and to develop in the right environment. JVG appears to be reluctant and slow to change things up. I completely understand why he didn't want to throw guys like Healy or Casey into proceedings yesterday. But, overall he had only changed his props before the 70th minute and Munster were on the absolute ropes. He then made a raft of changes in the final 10 minutes as Munster fell away and there was no cohesion to their line up. Guys like Botha, Cloete and Daly sat on the bench until the closing minutes whilst the incumbents were exhausted.

Munster had thrown the kitchen sink at Racing particularly in the first quarter and it was always going to tell as the game wore on. I thought that was very naive management.

Where to go from here? Well JVG isn't going anywhere right now. With DDA and Snyman on the way, it will give them a further boost and allow Munster to perform with slightly more intensity. I don't think they'll deviate from their game plan as both of those players fit in with a very physical, gain line battle but they will be better equipped to win that. I suppose time will tell as to whether the plan can work when Munster are fully loaded with all available although no team should count on that with any regularity.

As stated above, the priority now has to be getting top seed in the Pro14 and trying to ensure a reasonable pool for next season.

easy peasy

shootermacg wrote: »

Think Munster need to be looking for an Irish qualified big lump of a seven, any suggestions?

Think it would probably be better for everyone if Munster went back to producing top level talent instead of recruiting average foreign talent and trying to turn it into top level.

Munster haven't produced a solid Irish international who is guaranteed their place since POM/Murray and that is a damning stat.

thomond2006

Arno Botha 2020
Gavin Coombes 2021
Chris Cloete 2022
Tommy O'Donnell 2021
Jack O'Donoghue 2021
Peter O'Mahony 2021
Conor Oliver 2020
CJ Stander 2021

Jack Daly Year 2
John Hodnett Year 1
Jack O'Sullivan Year 3

Conor Oliver is a very likely release so perhaps there is room for a backrow signing. JOS will replace Botha.

budhabob

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Oliver is a very likely release so perhaps there is room for a backrow signing. JOS will replace Botha.

I think Coombes looks a decent prospect - hes sum size of a fella and has decent aggression, just no luck with injuries.