Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Richie_Rich89

sydthebeat wrote: »

i was distinctly referring to the assertion that the only difference between the leinster and munster development of young players is that leinter are willing to give them game time whereas munster are not.

by the time they are 23/24 they are not what i would call 'young players' as generally they are squad members for 3 or 4 seasons at that stage.
I replied to your post which directly quoted Hodnett as an example.

Take him and Penny as examples.
Penny has 324 pro14 minutes so far.
Hodnett has none.

You might put that down to munster simply not giving him a chance, whereas i would put pennys development through St Michaels (both physical and skillswise) as the reason hes getting minutes with leinster in a very very well packed position.

Hodnett looked more physical than Penny at U20 level. He played some 8 and looked like a very powerful carrier. Generally speaking, there's probably something in the idea that Munster players take longer to mature, but I don't think there's much in the argument in a direct comparison between Penny and Hodnett.

I'm not sure Munster would pick Penny. They'd think he was too small. I suppose Cloete's there, but he's probably the exception that proves the rule. Munster like picking big, blindside type players like Dave O'Callaghan and Jack O'Donoghue at openside.

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'm not sure Munster would pick Penny. They'd think he was too small. I suppose Cloete's there, but he's probably the exception that proves the rule. Munster like picking big, blindside type players like Dave O'Callaghan and Jack O'Donoghue at openside.

With regards DOC, this just isn't true. Of his 64 starts for Munster:
- 1 (2%) was at 4 .
- 5 (8%) were at 7.
- 58 (90%) were at 6.

Richie_Rich89

aloooof wrote: »

With regards DOC, this just isn't true. Of his 64 starts for Munster:
- 1 (2%) was at 4 .
- 5 (8%) were at 7.
- 58 (90%) were at 6.

Yeah, it's not a lot of starts at openside. But the fact he played there at all is striking. He's your quintessential blindside - big, physical guy who can fill in at lock. The equivalent at Leinster would maybe be putting Josh Murphy in at 7 when others aren't available instead of giving the gametime to Penny.

kilns

As much as many Munster fans may hate to accept it, Munster are increasingly reliant on Leinster supplying them with players who can play to certain level.

RobbieRuns

kilns wrote: »

As much as many Munster fans may hate to accept it, Munster are increasingly reliant on Leinster supplying them with players who can play to certain level.

Maybe, but not as reliant as Ulster or Connacht.

kingofthekong

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Interesting to hear Hugh Farrelly describe Munster training as "scattered". It's not entirely surprising to hear there's a lack of clarity after watching how the Springboks played when they lost 57-0 to the ABs and 38-3 to Ireland under van Graan. Maybe he needs to take more of a back seat pr role à la Cullen at Leinster and let Larkham do the coaching.

It'd be good to see Jack O'Sullivan get a go against the Ospreys, maybe with Stander at blindside and POM at openside. Shane Daly probably deserves a start too, maybe even at the expense of Earls. And it'd be a good chance to get Casey and Healy into the XXIII.

Larkham wasnt massively rated down South so i wouldnt be putting all the eggs into the Larkham basket

lawrencesummers

Interested Observer wrote: »

Just numbers?

Do you really think Munster are as well coached from top to bottom as Leinster? I don't.

I think numbers has a massive amount to do with it. Sure leinster have a far better standard of coaching at a lot of levels, but it’s numbers because The schools system in leinster is effectively 15 or so academies with excellent structures in place in each with top level coaching, S&C facilities, funding and development all playing a very high standard of rugby.

It’s like the hurlers in Kilkenny or the footballers in Kerry, Dublin, a lot of very good people involved at all levels.

Put it this way, if the Munster coaching ticket and the Leinster coaching ticket swapped I don’t for a second think the success would also swap.

The talent that Leinster are able to Identify, develop, invest in and ultimately have on the field is the envy of every club the world over because no other team I know of has so many high level teams feeding into it.

lawrencesummers

kingofthekong wrote: »

Larkham wasnt massively rated down South so i wouldnt be putting all the eggs into the Larkham basket

Is that the same larkham that was being groomed to be Chiekas replacement? Or a cousin?

AdamD

There are not 15 schools in Leinster effectively acting as academies. This really has grown legs of its own.

The Lost Sheep

AdamD wrote: »

There are not 15 schools in Leinster effectively acting as academies. This really has grown legs of its own.

there isnt but there is a lot more schools with resources far more than any elsewhere who have been getting a lot of players to pro level recently and in several schools they are getting a lot to a high level soon after finishing school which Munster cant compete with.
And leinster also have more club players and getting more from that sector as well

lawrencesummers

Munster have done a lot of work at academy level, but players are not in the senior squad for a variety of reasons many of which are not just Down to coaching - Ian nagle, Johnny Holland, Scott Deasy, Dairmuid McCarthy, Timmy Ryan, Zebo, paddy butler, Dave foley, Ronan o Mahony, Dave O Callaghan, duncan Casey to name a few, most of whom I would say are not playing for Munster and it’s not to do with the level of coaching.

easy peasy

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Maybe, but not as reliant as Ulster or Connacht.

Munster just rely on South Africa for the additional players I suppose.

lawrencesummers

AdamD wrote: »

There are not 15 schools in Leinster effectively acting as academies. This really has grown legs of its own.

How many of the Leinster schools have given players to Leinster over the years? Is it a dozen? (I’ve no clue but i would imagine its Double digits)

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a lot of starts at openside. But the fact he played there at all is striking. He's your quintessential blindside - big, physical guy who can fill in at lock. The equivalent at Leinster would maybe be putting Josh Murphy in at 7 when others aren't available instead of giving the gametime to Penny.

I would only be the equivalent if Munster had a 7 of the calibre of Penny at the time that they didn't pick. But they didn't.

I think you're reading an awful lot into what is just 5 starts.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

How many of the Leinster schools have given players to Leinster over the years? Is it a dozen? (I’ve no clue but i would imagine its Double digits)

Over how many years? For example, afaik, the last Leinster player to come from Terenure was Girvan Dempsey.

aloooof

easy peasy wrote: »

Munster just rely on South Africa for the additional players I suppose.

Munster have only 1 NIQ player, in Botha. Ulster and Leinster both have 2. Seems like a strange definition of reliant.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

Over how many years? For example, afaik, the last Leinster player to come from Terenure was Girvan Dempsey.

Since professionalism would be a good way to look at it.

easy peasy

aloooof wrote: »

Munster have only 1 NIQ player, in Botha. Ulster and Leinster both have 2. Seems like a strange definition of reliant.

Four South African born players in the squad, with strong rumours of two more joining next year. Seems a strong reliance too me.

I suppose it is a handy out, buying in South African players and borrowing off the IRFU in order to try and maintain a standing at the top of the club game.

The idea of playing some academy players and having a mid table season is just too horrible a thought.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Since professionalism would be a good way to look at it.

Professionalism came into effect in 1995. But from an Irish POV, that date is pretty irrelevant. There wasn't even a domestic league for the provinces back then, just interpros and the Heineken Cup. There weren't even proper academies until at least ten years after professionalism.

Eod100

Like a bowling ball going through skittles.. https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1216756966405607429?s=19

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Munster have only 1 NIQ player, in Botha. Ulster and Leinster both have 2. Seems like a strange definition of reliant.

Ah now, much as I dislike this current "debate" this is a bit of an odd reply. Knox, Kleyn, Stander, Botha and Cloete are all relevant to the point made. This 1 NIQ stat is meaningless in terms of this discussion.

Munster have had serious issues with player development over the course of the last decade. No players developed for the national squad in 2 RWC cycles is a pretty damning stat. That said, comparing them to Leinster is a bit of a pointless exercise given the fundamental (and mainly non-rugby) differences between the provinces. If we are to compare Munster to anyone it should be the other 2 provinces, mainly Ulster though.

Even doing that, Munster have been poor to be fair. Both of those 2 have developed 2 internationals in the last 2 RWC cycles (Henderson and Stockdale, Marmion and Henshaw).

What might be an interesting stat is players developed who have played > 50 caps for their province and have gone on to > 10 caps for Ireland or something like that. The rate of conversion from Academy to Senior Provincial to Regular International might be a bit more instructive.

Richie_Rich89

aloooof wrote: »

I would only be the equivalent if Munster had a 7 of the calibre of Penny at the time that they didn't pick. But they didn't.

I think you're reading an awful lot into what is just 5 starts.

Maybe I am. There was a bit of an injury crisis at the time as well, iirc. Although, then again, Stander was picked at 7 last season against Leinster and Gavin Coombes has played there for Munster 'A', so picking blindsides at 7 is a bit of a trend.

Jack Daly and Hodnett are there now anyway, so I suppose we'll see if they're brought through.

One factor could be that Munster's rugby identity of being extremely confrontational could work against introducing new players who might not be as physical. Leinster traditionally play a looser, more running style, which doesn't need quite the same physicality levels.

lawrencesummers

easy peasy wrote: »

Four South African born players in the squad, with strong rumours of two more joining next year. Seems a strong reliance too me.

I suppose it is a handy out, buying in South African players and borrowing off the IRFU in order to try and maintain a standing at the top of the club game.

The idea of playing some academy players and having a mid table season is just too horrible a thought.

The idea of contributing anything other than a poor wum is a bit much for you is it?

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

Professionalism came into effect in 1995. But from an Irish POV, that date is pretty irrelevant. There wasn't even a domestic league for the provinces back then, just interpros and the Heineken Cup. There weren't even proper academies until at least ten years after professionalism.

Go back to 2006 so, the year of Munster first HCUP win.

Flannery laying it all out here. Unreal interview from him.

Bridge93

Don’t worry about Leinster. What is the output from the welsh, English and Scottish academies?

easy peasy

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The idea of contributing anything other than a poor wum is a bit much for you is it?

Genuinely isn't a WUM, Munster are in a steady decline and the reasons for it need to be talked about openly.

In the past three years, there are generally three Munster born starters for Ireland with the possibility of 0-3 additional players on the bench. This is general obviously but as examples, 2019 v NZ - 3 starters, 2 bench, 2018 v NZ - 2 starters, 0 bench (not including Sean Cronin).

Anyone who thinks those figures are acceptable needs to take a serious look at their expectations for Munster as team. That number will likely be down to 2 starters in the 6 nations, and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that none of Earls, Murray and O'Mahony start, meaning that the figure is actually 0.

It is time Munster start putting more of their money into youth development and the schools game. I think its a fair comment to say that Munster schools don't have the same set up as their Leinster equivalent but there is absolutely no reason why the province itself at u16, u18 and u19 should not have the most progressive environment possible. Instead, they are just throwing cash at Damien de Allende.

budhabob

Leamy is working with Leinster?

lawrencesummers

easy peasy wrote: »

Genuinely isn't a WUM, Munster are in a steady decline and the reasons for it need to be talked about openly.

In the past three years, there are generally three Munster born starters for Ireland with the possibility of 0-3 additional players on the bench. This is general obviously but as examples, 2019 v NZ - 3 starters, 2 bench, 2018 v NZ - 2 starters, 0 bench (not including Sean Cronin).

Anyone who thinks those figures are acceptable needs to take a serious look at their expectations for Munster as team. That number will likely be down to 2 starters in the 6 nations, and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that none of Earls, Murray and O'Mahony start, meaning that the figure is actually 0.

It is time Munster start putting more of their money into youth development and the schools game. I think its a fair comment to say that Munster schools don't have the same set up as their Leinster equivalent but there is absolutely no reason why the province itself at u16, u18 and u19 should not have the most progressive environment possible. Instead, they are just throwing cash at Damien de Allende.

The Leinster rugby system as a whole is producing far more players than any of the other provinces, possibly more than all the other provinces put together. It’s just simple mathematics that more of those players are going to be of a higher standard. Coaching may be part of the problem, but it’s not the only one and arguably not the biggest one.

ClanofLams

budhabob wrote: »

Leamy is working with Leinster?

Yeah he joined their academy set up around start of season.