Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Oliver is a very likely release so perhaps there is room for a backrow signing. JOS will replace Botha.

Am I right in saying DDA and Snyman are the only NIQ players signed up for next season (assuming Botha leaves and Cloete becomes IQ in the autumn)?

If they want to be competitve at the top end, Munster could do worse than look to trim their squad slightly and bring in a really top level back row or tighthead.

Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Oliver is a very likely release so perhaps there is room for a backrow signing. JOS will replace Botha.

That's a shame. He looked like he could have been a decent player.

Clegg

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Oliver is a very likely release so perhaps there is room for a backrow signing. JOS will replace Botha.

I read on another forum that Hodnett started for UCC at 12 last weekend. Munster also wanted him to try him out at hooker a while back too. If he's to develop properly as player surely they have to keep him in one position. Or at least shift him across different areas of the backrow. Throwing him into the backs doesn't help anybody.

Buer

Clegg wrote: »

I read on another forum that Hodnett started for UCC at 12 last weekend. Munster also wanted him to try him out at hooker a while back too. If he's to develop properly as player surely they have to keep him in one position. Or at least shift him across different areas of the backrow. Throwing him into the backs doesn't help anybody.

I believe he was playing hooker a good while back so has some significant experience there already. He looked really good in the back row at U20 level but it's hard to know if that will translate to senior level. He's 21 now and hasn't been involved in a Munster 23.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply seen as too small for the modern game by Munster and they want to see him play elsewhere. If he can throw, he could be a great addition to the front row. He has already packed down there at AIL and Munster underage levels so is not a stranger to the demands of the set piece.

thomond2006

Deon Fourie had a very good career at club level alternating between hooker and backrow.

Bazzo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Deon Fourie had a very good career at club level alternating between hooker and backrow.

Ashley Johnson too. But they are definitely the exception rather than the rule. Far better off picking a position to try to excel in.

Tomtom364

Buer wrote: »

There was signs of evolution in the early stages of this season but as soon as the bigger games arrived, it was ditched for the tried and untrusted. They will not beat the best teams like that who are too physical and disciplined to be broken down so easily.

It often conveniently forgotten by people calling for JVG's head that the players that he and Larkham had for the full preseason were implementing a new attacking style, and although far from perfect, it was looking good.

The game plan reverted back to similar to previous seasons as the harder games rolled in, and just so happened that all the players that missed preseason also rolled straight into those games.

Calling for a coaches head in those circumstances is just nonsense (or trolling in some people cases but I'm not saying that about you Buer).
The problem with Munster's game was identified, action was taken to address it (sign Larkham). You absolutely have to allow that to at least have a clear run with the full team before a drastic decision is made.

It's also worth noting that this gameplan and attacking style seems to be built around Carbery being the key man, which makes sense, and unfortunately due to injury, of the 1,200 competitive minutes so far this season Carbery has played 104 of them, 8.6%. In fairness to JJ he has looked far better this year than the past few seasons and you gotta give the fella great credit for that. Can say that this gameplan suits him better as well, he just isn't on the same level as what we know Carbery can/used to be, let's hope he recovers well and we see how Munster's game evolves over the next 12 months

kilns

What has geniunely gone wrong in Munster, we cant they produce any talent?

Murray is the only geniune quality player produced in the last 10 years (POM is a limited player whose mental will rose him to the level he achieved) so questions have to be asked why can Leinster produce so much quality and Munster cant match them. I know population is a factor but it cant be just that. Is it player identification? coaching?

Neil3030

How many rugby schools are in Munster, and what do their rugby programmes look like compared to the likes of Rock, Michaels, Belvo, etc.

A lot of blame being placed on the Munster academy, but Leinster's gets a fresh cohort of borderline pros coming through the door each year, which is where the real advantage lies.

Interested Observer

Neil3030 wrote: »

How many rugby schools are in Munster, and what do their rugby programmes look like compared to the likes of Rock, Michaels, Belvo, etc.

A lot of blame being placed on the Munster academy, but Leinster's gets a fresh cohort of borderline pros coming through the door each year, which is where the real advantage lies.

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

Henry Ford III

Botia plays back row and 12 for La Rochelle. He'd make most starting lineups.

kilns

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

That could sum it up, Leinster are willing to give their young players game time and it benefits them, Munster are content with playing journeymen from South Africa etc instead

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I don't think it's as simple as saying "they've done it in the past". Leinster have raised the bar for what "top tier talent" means compared to the past.

Interested Observer wrote: »

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

You're comparing Hodnett and Doris, and aside from the fact that they're at very different stages of their development, I think that comparison proves the point that Neil3030 was making. This is a quote from Hodnett last year:

“I didn’t play a whole lot of rugby, probably until I was 16 or 17 when I got picked for the Munster U18 clubs and it kind of took off from there really,” he says.

I wouldn't expect Doris can say anything remotely similar.

Munster definitely can (and need to) do more. But saying "they've done it in the past" is too simplistic and without any context, imo.

Squidgy Black

Hodnett's listed as 6'1 and 103kg, around the same size as the likes of TOD and lighter than Stander but the same height. I know the stats can be skewed but surely that's plenty big for the professional game? Especially on a young lad with potential to add more bulk.

kingofthekong

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

Yes its an easy excuse for people to just say population and playing numbers but its a lazy excuse, its partially the case but not the full picture

Leinster do have the advantage numbers wise but that doesnt excuse the fact that in 10 years not a single quality player since o'mahony/Murray

In Leinster its really only two schools Rock and Michaels with the vast bulk of academy talent then theres Clongowes and others who provide a few,

Its probably better to zero in on Michaels or Rock and try and figure out how they manage to churn out ridiculous amounts of pro talent..

Number of factors like - Money, private school, better coaching, hug emphasis on rugby, tradition etc etc etc

Munster are still creating talent though....guys like Kendellen, O'sullivan, Casey, Nash, Hodnett, Ahern, Healy, Flannery, Baron, Wren.....they are all guys that need to maximised and their growth prioritised

Munster need to bring those guys through ...



Molony - Michaels
Carberry - Rock
Hugo Keenan - Rock
Caolan Doris - Rock
Jordi Murphy - Rock
Nick Timoney - Rock
Loughman - Rock
Conor Oliver - Rock
Thornbury - Rock
Peter Robb - Rock
Scott Penny - Michaels
James Ryan - Michaels
Ryan bAIRD - Michaels
Max Deegan - Michaels
Ronan Kelleher - Michaels
O'loughlin - Michaels
Ross Byrne - Michaels
Harry Byrne - Michaels
Dan Leavy - Michaels
Luke Mcgrath - Michaels
Jack Dunne - Michaels

Buer

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Calling for a coaches head in those circumstances is just nonsense (or trolling in some people cases but I'm not saying that about you Buer).
The problem with Munster's game was identified, action was taken to address it (sign Larkham). You absolutely have to allow that to at least have a clear run with the full team before a drastic decision is made.

I don't think there's a hope that JVG is sacked. He got an extension coming into this season and I believe he'll see that out at the very least which will give him ample opportunity to bed in any changes.

In relation to the time being required to change style, I agree to a certain extent. But JJH and Scannell were the two main playmakers and have been with the coaches for a full pre-season as has Haley who has been another key member of the back line this season. I can understand that the test players need more time to bed back into proceedings but yesterday, from what I saw, was a complete avoidance of attempting to move the ball. It was route one rugby almost entirely. In fairness, it started very well and Munster had Racing in all sorts of difficulty but that level of intensity and exertion is near impossible to maintain for 80 minutes.

For context, Scannell only touched the ball 7 times in the match despite being the second playmaker. Archer and JOB were the only forwards to see less of the ball than him. This is an indoor arena with perfect conditions and Earls and Conway on the wings begging for some clean ball in space.

As I said, I get that a style takes a while to bed in but this is going out with a very deliberate and premeditated plan with little or no attempt to adjust during the game. There should be some ability to play with more width and creativity at this point. There were 2 clean breaks by Munster; Conway with one (the try?) and JOD with the other (offload from Earls after he fielded the ball?). Racing are down for 14.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

How many rugby schools are in Munster, and what do their rugby programmes look like compared to the likes of Rock, Michaels, Belvo, etc.

A lot of blame being placed on the Munster academy, but Leinster's gets a fresh cohort of borderline pros coming through the door each year, which is where the real advantage lies.

there is 8-10 A schools. A considerable number are non fee paying so have nowhere near finances to put in to the sport as the leinster schools. Glenstal is fee paying and with brother of Andy Skehan who has been in Michael's coaching there they have similar work put in but numbers attending there is very low. Ben Healy from Nenagh is one of few to play pro who attended there
Pres and Christian's in cork would be closest to the Dublin schools as they have numbers attending, resources etc.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

Munster had a golden generation and that simply just wasnt going to be replicated and not enough was done to really help develop game more to get players to elite level.

kingofthekong wrote: »

Yes its an easy excuse for people to just say population and playing numbers but its a lazy excuse, its partially the case but not the full picture

Leinster do have the advantage numbers wise but that doesnt excuse the fact that in 10 years not a single quality player since o'mahony/Murray

In Leinster its really only two schools Rock and Michaels with the vast bulk of academy talent then theres Clongowes and others who provide a few,

Its probably better to zero in on Michaels or Rock and try and figure out how they manage to churn out ridiculous amounts of pro talent..

Number of factors like - Money, private school, better coaching, hug emphasis on rugby, tradition etc etc etc

Munster are still creating talent though....guys like Kendellen, O'sullivan, Casey, Nash, Hodnett, Ahern, Healy, Flannery, Baron, Wren.....they are all guys that need to maximised and their growth prioritised

Munster need to bring those guys through ...

Molony - Michaels
Carberry - Rock
Hugo Keenan - Rock
Caolan Doris - Rock
Jordi Murphy - Rock
Nick Timoney - Rock
Loughman - Rock
Conor Oliver - Rock
Thornbury - Rock
Peter Robb - Rock
Scott Penny - Michaels
James Ryan - Michaels
Ryan bAIRD - Michaels
Max Deegan - Michaels
Ronan Kelleher - Michaels
O'loughlin - Michaels
Ross Byrne - Michaels
Harry Byrne - Michaels
Dan Leavy - Michaels
Luke Mcgrath - Michaels
Jack Dunne - Michaels

quite a few of those only went to rock for a year or two and these schools have large numbers playing and resources to put into sport that make it very very hard to compete with.
Munster have produced some good players since o mahony and Murray but both are test lions. Very very hard to replicate that. The academy has changed but it takes time for improvements to really show at pro level

Dubinusa

I think trusting the young lads in the easier games would help. At least for the long term. When Zebre or the Kings come in to town, the script should be flipped imo. Some academy lads should get the nod and start these matches!
There's no reason why Knox; J.O.S , Coombes can start these matches. In the backs , Healy, Daly and Nash!
Cullen did remarkable work his 1st year. He blooded a good amount of prospects and they thrived.
There is talent there! The trick is to get them exposure. Loughman is a good example! Cast aside from Leinster and now he's blossoming at Munster. I definitely think J.O.S could be a very good player, when given his opportunity. Daly has been great and is knocking on the door. There's a glut of 2and rows also in the academy. They should be exposed also, during the easier fixtures.
JVG may not be the answer however. I realize it's a new coaching team and needs time. But if they don't improve by next Christmas Munster should look elsewhere.

sydthebeat

kilns wrote: »

That could sum it up, Leinster are willing to give their young players game time and it benefits them, Munster are content with playing journeymen from South Africa etc instead

i dont think its a case of leinster simply being willing to play youngsters and munster not.

its more a case of leinster schools players being already well developed for the pro game, so less of a step up.... whereas maybe schoolboys coming out of munsters best schools arent at that same level. i don't know enough about the munster school system and academy to comment really, but there does seem to be quite a physical and developmental difference already.

Interested Observer

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster had a golden generation and that simply just wasnt going to be replicated and not enough was done to really help develop game more to get players to elite level.

I'm not really sure anyone expects the pack of the 2000s to be reproduced any times soon but it's gone from that to the other extreme. Who is the last top class forward that Munster produced, POM? He's 30.

Lucas44

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He is good enough that any irish team would be expected to check in on him if they are considering anything in the back 3 but not good enough to make a big difference to the team.

He would push hard to start for Munster or connacht, no Shane in backing up Alex Goode and Liam Williams.. anytime I’ve seen him play he’s been really good

kilns

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont think its a case of leinster simply being willing to play youngsters and munster not.

its more a case of leinster schools players being already well developed for the pro game, so less of a step up.... whereas maybe schoolboys coming out of munsters best schools arent at that same level. i don't know enough about the munster school system and academy to comment really, but there does seem to be quite a physical and developmental difference already.

But there is still no sign of these player at 23/24 too

sydthebeat

kilns wrote: »

But there is still no sign of these player at 23/24 too

i don't see how that disagrees with my point?

mitresize5

There are 3 big differences between the schools set ups in Leinster to Munster

Money, money and money.

St. Munchins College has been a huge supplier to rugby in Munster through the years and this year the rugby program is headed up by Ger Slattery and Davy Quinlan. Two top blokes with a wealth of great experience between them doing there very best for the young kids and the school.

In the Dublin schools there is a team of Ger's and Davy's led by a director of rugby. The 4G pitch was installed in Donnybrook a number of year ago and St.Michaels went out to the alumni to fund the installation of one on there school grounds. It was over subscribed to the point where they refitted there gym with the balance. There is one 4G pitch in Limerick. There is one in every 'A' school in Dublin.

Winter warm weather training camps are par for the course in SC teams in Dublin, The SC teams in Munster are training in the mud at the same time.

I've no solutions but thought it would help to put a bit of perspective on things

lawrencesummers

Munster played away to a very good French side and lost by 17 points. Ulster played away to a very good French side and lost by 16 points. Ulster have quins and bath in their group, neither anywhere near the level that Sarries are.

Neither side are producing the level of talent that they want, both have had to look outside the province for talent and have brought in players from outside while trying to bring on players like Ballacoune, Shane Daly, Dan goggin, Casey etc etc.

Yet people are calling for jvg to get the road. Some people want to get a grip. Leinster are on the crest of a wave talent wise, they are reaping the rewards of excellent development and having a schools system that essentially acts like multiple academies, there is no magic to it, it’s just down to numbers.

Outside of one or two marquee players it’s impossible for the provinces to stack their squads to the extent that sides like Racing and Clermont have. None of us are operating on a level playing field and I think Munster, Ulster and Connacht are doing exceptionally well to be competitive with what they have.

kilns

sydthebeat wrote: »

i don't see how that disagrees with my point?

If it is a pure physical issue and needing time to catch up, they should have developed by that age in a professional set up no?

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

If it is a pure physical issue and needing time to catch up, they should have developed by that age in a professional set up no?

My reading of it was that "development" meant skills as much as it relates to physical element.

Richie_Rich89

Interesting to hear Hugh Farrelly describe Munster training as "scattered". It's not entirely surprising to hear there's a lack of clarity after watching how the Springboks played when they lost 57-0 to the ABs and 38-3 to Ireland under van Graan. Maybe he needs to take more of a back seat pr role à la Cullen at Leinster and let Larkham do the coaching.

It'd be good to see Jack O'Sullivan get a go against the Ospreys, maybe with Stander at blindside and POM at openside. Shane Daly probably deserves a start too, maybe even at the expense of Earls. And it'd be a good chance to get Casey and Healy into the XXIII.

sydthebeat

kilns wrote: »

If it is a pure physical issue and needing time to catch up, they should have developed by that age in a professional set up no?

i was distinctly referring to the assertion that the only difference between the leinster and munster development of young players is that leinter are willing to give them game time whereas munster are not.

by the time they are 23/24 they are not what i would call 'young players' as generally they are squad members for 3 or 4 seasons at that stage.
I replied to your post which directly quoted Hodnett as an example.

Take him and Penny as examples.
Penny has 324 pro14 minutes so far.
Hodnett has none.

You might put that down to munster simply not giving him a chance, whereas i would put pennys development through St Michaels (both physical and skillswise) as the reason hes getting minutes with leinster in a very very well packed position.

Interested Observer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yet people are calling for jvg to get the road. Some people want to get a grip. Leinster are on the crest of a wave talent wise, they are reaping the rewards of excellent development and having a schools system that essentially acts like multiple academies, there is no magic to it, it’s just down to numbers.

Just numbers?

Do you really think Munster are as well coached from top to bottom as Leinster? I don't.