Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

lawrencesummers

Do people really think that Munster would have signed Kleyn or Snedman if three second rows of the proper standard were around from players like billy holland, Dave Foley, Ian nagle, Donnacha Ryan, ultan Dillane?

If the Leinster system is so perfect then why have they signed players like Tomane, Lowe, JGP, Fardy? Because It’s the same with Leinster signing Lowe, they wouldn’t have done so if there was a player(s) of the required level playing.

No province has to apologise for having ambitions of success, it’s a pity that the academies are not producing more Homegrown players Because imports command a big chunk of the wage, and the teams I’m sure perfer to pick and play their own players but sometimes they are not there.

No system is flawless either, the Leinster system made big mistakes When they left Cooney go, a player that is now clearly the best 9 in the country, they have also left Beirne go.

The Lost Sheep

easy peasy wrote: »

Genuinely isn't a WUM, Munster are in a steady decline and the reasons for it need to be talked about openly.

In the past three years, there are generally three Munster born starters for Ireland with the possibility of 0-3 additional players on the bench. This is general obviously but as examples, 2019 v NZ - 3 starters, 2 bench, 2018 v NZ - 2 starters, 0 bench (not including Sean Cronin).

Anyone who thinks those figures are acceptable needs to take a serious look at their expectations for Munster as team. That number will likely be down to 2 starters in the 6 nations, and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that none of Earls, Murray and O'Mahony start, meaning that the figure is actually 0.

It is time Munster start putting more of their money into youth development and the schools game. I think its a fair comment to say that Munster schools don't have the same set up as their Leinster equivalent but there is absolutely no reason why the province itself at u16, u18 and u19 should not have the most progressive environment possible. Instead, they are just throwing cash at Damien de Allende.

you say if it's that easy. Munster have been making changes to underage system to help development of players. Youths rugby has changed formats to help get kids playing more games. Schools cup has also added a group stage and there also has been a club selection playing in this group stage giving some kids more games. They are not simply just throwing money at foreign imports

randomrb

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

you say if it's that easy. Munster have been making changes to underage system to help development of players. Youths rugby has changed formats to help get kids playing more games. Schools cup has also added a group stage and there also has been a club selection playing in this group stage giving some kids more games. They are not simply just throwing money at foreign imports

This is important, the current group of coaches are dealing with teh consequences of decisions made 10 or even 15 years ago, you could bring in the finest youth/academy coaches in the world and it would be bare minimum 5 years before there is any return.

They have chosen to bring in international talent because there isn't the equivalent in munster, the simple fact is that if you look at the 2008 team that won there are world class players that were never really replaced most notably: O'Connell, O'gara, Quinlan, Leamy, Wallace, Howlett. More importantly if you look at the bench for 2008 it is incomparable to what we have now;
HK 16 Frankie Sheahan
PR 17 Tony Buckley
LK 18 Mick O'Driscoll
FL 19 Donnacha Ryan
SH 20 Peter Stringer
FH 21 Paul Warwick
CE 22 Keith Earls

We ran out of steam on sunday cause we didn't have big impact players or experienced heads to bring on

Squidgy Black

budhabob wrote: »

Leamy is working with Leinster?

Yeah he's been working with the academy since the start of this season.

Neil3030

Interested Observer wrote: »

Leinster obviously have advantages there but it doesn't really explain why Munster have been so poor at producing top tier talent over the last decade. And they have done it in the past, so why has it stopped?

I heard Hodnett started at 12 in an AIL game recently, what the hell is going on there (or is it even true)? He was outstanding at U20 level for Ireland in the backrow, he's of an age with the likes of Doris, but Leinster have converted Doris into a pro while Munster prefer to play Arno Botha and Chris Cloete.

Well Munster did it in the past when the game was in a completely different state. That's not a knock on a group of players who were great in their day - but context matters. Today, those players would all need to be bigger, faster, better able to pass, offload, handle, etc., if they were to mix it at the very top level.

I'd also be wary of criticising Munster outright for failing to bring through lads who looked great at youth level, without knowing more about the specific circumstances. Natural speed and power differences at this age can make some kids look great, but without good fundamentals, they crap the bed when they have to mix it regularly with lads of the same athletic ability. Leinster could be taking in lads who didn't stand out at youth level, but thanks to their fundamentals, had a far higher ceiling at senior level.

But promisingly, it only seems to be two schools that are really excelling in this conveyor belt: Rock and Michaels. Which means that in theory, Munster, Connacht and Ulster would just need to match the programme in one or two schools to see a drastic improvement in the standard of players entering their academies. The biggest challenge will be local politics - say, if the IRFU allocate funds to each province to get two schools up to elite feeder status; which schools get selected, which clubs will they have relationships with, what are the catchment areas, etc etc., that side of it would be a nightmare.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Go back to 2006 so, the year of Munster first HCUP win.

Mostly off the top of the head, but here goes.

The main feeders:
Blackrock have had a good few, the likes of Garry Ringrose being in the most recent bunch.
St. Michael's. Take your pick. Lots to choose from. Ridiculous numbers being churned out.
Clongowes. Again a good few to pick from going back to the Kearneys. Rowan Osborne being the latest addition.

Occasional contributors:
St. Andrews. Unusual to see players from there, but Andrew Porter and Jordan Larmour have come through with a bang. Felix Jones being the only other one to make it through.
Newbridge College. Most well-known (recently) being Jamie Heaslip, but also James Tracy.
Belvedere. Ian Keatley, Cian Healy and more recently Hugh O'Sullivan.
Gonzaga. Barry Daly, Kevin McLaughlin, John Cooney and Dom Ryan. Also Matt Healy (Connacht).

One hit (maybe two ) wonders
Assuming I'm correct about Terenure, Girvan Dempsey was the last from there and pre-2006, so that's zero from Terenure,
St. Mary's. Jonny Sexton and Jack McGrath
Wesley College. Josh van der Flier is pretty much the only one since Eric Miller.
St. Gerard's. Jack Conan and (briefly) Steve Crosbie.
Castleknock. Devin Toner
Castleknock Community College. Vakh Abdeladze
Naas CBS. Adam Byrne
St. Brendan's Community School. Peter Dooley.

Most of the rest were more likely from rugby clubs than schools. Like Tadhg Furlong (New Ross RFC), Peter Dooley (Birr RFC), Joey Carbery (Athy RFC) and Ciarán Frawley (Skerries RFC)

Realistically, there are three main feeder schools with the rest being occasional suppliers or one/two hit wonders and a smattering of club players. That's seven that you could say are regularly providing players to Leinster and Ireland.

St. Michael's output is ridiculous. Noel Reid, Simon Keogh, Luke McGrath, Dan Leavy, Adam Leavy (sevens), Rory O'Loughlin, Nick McCarthy, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne (a), Ross Molony, James Ryan, Ronan Kelleher, Cian Kelleher, Max Deegan, Ryan Baird (a), Oisin Dowling (a), Jack Dunne (a) and Jack Kelly (a).

*(a) Academy player.

lawrencesummers

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well Munster did it in the past when the game was in a completely different state. That's not a knock on a group of players who were great in their day - but context matters. Today, those players would all need to be bigger, faster, better able to pass, offload, handle, etc., if they were to mix it at the very top level.

I'd also be wary of criticising Munster outright for failing to bring through lads who looked great at youth level, without knowing more about the specific circumstances. Natural speed and power differences at this age can make some kids look great, but without good fundamentals, they crap the bed when they have to mix it regularly with lads of the same athletic ability. Leinster could be taking in lads who didn't stand out at youth level, but thanks to their fundamentals, had a far higher ceiling at senior level.

But promisingly, it only seems to be two schools that are really excelling in this conveyor belt: Rock and Michaels. Which means that in theory, Munster, Connacht and Ulster would just need to match the programme in one or two schools to see a drastic improvement in the standard of players entering their academies. The biggest challenge will be local politics - say, if the IRFU allocate funds to each province to get two schools up to elite feeder status; which schools get selected, which clubs will they have relationships with, what are the catchment areas, etc etc., that side of it would be a nightmare.

You can’t say that leinsters success is down to two schools, the entire Leinster schools competition is highly competitive and it drives itself to higher standards Across the board because it is such a difficult Competition to win and a great breeding ground for talent. There are two competitive schools in cork and limerick that have produced Irish internationals But the Munster cup is nowhere near the level that the Leinster cup is.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mostly off the top of the head, but here goes.

The main feeders:
Blackrock have had a good few, the likes of Garry Ringrose being in the most recent bunch.
St. Michael's. Take your pick. Lots to choose from. Ridiculous numbers being churned out.
Clongowes. Again a good few to pick from going back to the Kearneys. Rowan Osborne being the latest addition.

Occasional contributors:
St. Andrews. Unusual to see players from there, but Andrew Porter and Jordan Larmour have come through with a bang. Felix Jones being the only other one to make it through.
Newbridge College. Most well-known (recently) being Jamie Heaslip, but also James Tracy.
Belvedere. Ian Keatley, Cian Healy and more recently Hugh O'Sullivan.
Gonzaga. Barry Daly, Kevin McLaughlin, John Cooney and Dom Ryan. Also Matt Healy (Connacht).

One hit (maybe two ) wonders
Assuming I'm correct about Terenure, Girvan Dempsey was the last from there and pre-2006, so that's zero from Terenure,
St. Mary's. Jonny Sexton and Jack McGrath
Wesley College. Josh van der Flier is pretty much the only one since Eric Miller.
St. Gerard's. Jack Conan and (briefly) Steve Crosbie.
Castleknock. Devin Toner
Castleknock Community College. Vakh Abdeladze
Naas CBS. Adam Byrne
St. Brendan's Community School. Peter Dooley.

Most of the rest were more likely fromvakh rugby clubs than schools. Like Tadhg Furlong (New Ross RFC), Peter Dooley (Birr RFC), Joey Carbery (Athy RFC) and Ciarán Frawley (Skerries RFC)

Realistically, there are three main feeder schools with the rest being occasional suppliers or one/two hit wonders and a smattering of club players. That's seven that you could say are regularly providing players to Leinster and Ireland.

St. Michael's output is ridiculous. Noel Reid, Simon Keogh, Luke McGrath, Dan Leavy, Adam Leavy (sevens), Rory O'Loughlin, Nick McCarthy, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne (a), Ross Molony, James Ryan, Ronan Kelleher, Cian Kelleher, Max Deegan, Ryan Baird (a), Oisin Dowling (a), Jack Dunne (a) and Jack Kelly (a).

*(a) Academy player.

vakh, Peter Dooley and Adam Byrne are youths players through coolmine, birr rfc and Naas far more than their schools.

Neil3030

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You can’t say that leinsters success is down to two schools, the entire Leinster schools competition is highly competitive and it drives itself to higher standards Across the board because it is such a difficult Competition to win and a great breeding ground for talent. There are two competitive schools in cork and limerick that have produced Irish internationals But the Munster cup is nowhere near the level that the Leinster cup is.

The strength of competition is definitely also part of it, you're right.

But the sheer volume of players that wind up in the Leinster Academy, that come from two of these schools, might speak to a model that other provinces can look at.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well Munster did it in the past when the game was in a completely different state. That's not a knock on a group of players who were great in their day - but context matters. Today, those players would all need to be bigger, faster, better able to pass, offload, handle, etc., if they were to mix it at the very top level.

I'd also be wary of criticising Munster outright for failing to bring through lads who looked great at youth level, without knowing more about the specific circumstances. Natural speed and power differences at this age can make some kids look great, but without good fundamentals, they crap the bed when they have to mix it regularly with lads of the same athletic ability. Leinster could be taking in lads who didn't stand out at youth level, but thanks to their fundamentals, had a far higher ceiling at senior level.

But promisingly, it only seems to be two schools that are really excelling in this conveyor belt: Rock and Michaels. Which means that in theory, Munster, Connacht and Ulster would just need to match the programme in one or two schools to see a drastic improvement in the standard of players entering their academies. The biggest challenge will be local politics - say, if the IRFU allocate funds to each province to get two schools up to elite feeder status; which schools get selected, which clubs will they have relationships with, what are the catchment areas, etc etc., that side of it would be a nightmare.

that isnt and cant ever be the answer. These schools have such funding privately in addition to excellent coaching and big numbers playing.
Ulster has some excellent schools but all too often a lot of talented rugby players just dont stay in Ireland for university so not playing here after...
Connacht has a good system in place but just doesnt have numbers compared to other provinces.
Munster are going right way. Schools cup format changed to help but just spending money on two schools goes against everything in proper long term development of the game and would make things worse in the sport overall and cause more problems than aid things for pro rugby

snotboogie

Hoping to add to the conversation by giving a breakdown of where the home developed players in the squad came up through. There are 25 home developed players in the senior squad and 16 home developed players in the academy squad. There are 9 schools with some representation.

PBC Cork have 6 senior squad players and 3 academy players. 3 players have Ireland caps for a total of 87 caps

CBC Cork have 4 senior players and 2 academy players, 3 players are capped for a total of 24 caps

Munchins have 3 senior players and 1 academy player, 2 players are capped for a total of 160 caps

Rockwell have 2 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

Bandon have 2 senior players and 1 academy player, 1 player is capped for 3 caps

Ardscoil have 2 senior players and 0 academy players, 1 player is capped for 36 caps

Castletroy have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Cresent have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Glenstall have 0 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

4 senior players came through the club game and 4 academy players came through the club game. 3 of these players are capped for a total of 18 caps.

19 of the 25 home developed senior players come from 6 schools, 10 of the 15 academy players come from the same 6 schools. Those same schools have 310 of the 328 home developed caps and 10 of the 13 home developed capped players.

The entire Munster development relies on 6 schools; 3 Cork (PBC, CBC and Bandon) 2 Limerick (Munchins and Ardscoil) and 1 Tipp (Rockwell) with a smattering of help from 3 more Limerick schools and the clubs. It's really the two Cork City schools and Munchins driving the whole thing. There are no schools developing players in Kerry, Waterford or Clare.

I would say on first glance that there is huge scope to increase the participation across different schools

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

vakh, Peter Dooley and Adam Byrne are youths players through coolmine, birr rfc and Naas far more than their schools.

Yeah, I just included the schools because they have a rugby programme (afaik) and compete in schools competitions. Not sure about St. Brendan's CBS though.

The Lost Sheep

snotboogie wrote: »

Hoping to add to the conversation by giving a breakdown of where the home developed players in the squad came up through. There are 25 home developed players in the senior squad and 16 home developed players in the academy squad. There are 9 schools with some representation.

PBC Cork have 6 senior squad players and 3 academy players. 3 players have Ireland caps for a otal of 87 caps

CBC Cork have 4 senior players and 2 academy players, 3 players are capped for a total of 24 caps

Munchins have 3 senior players and 1 academy player, 2 players are capped for a total of 160 caps

Rockwell have 2 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

Bandon have 2 senior players and 1 academy player, 1 player is capped for 3 caps

Ardscoil have 2 senior players and 0 academy players, 1 player is capped for 36 caps

Castletroy have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Cresent have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Glenstall have 0 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

4 senior players came through the club game and 4 academy players came through the club game. 3 of these players are capped for a total of 18 caps.

19 of the 25 home developed senior players come from 6 schools, 10 of the 15 academy players come from the same 6 schools. Those same schools have 310 of the 328 home developed caps and 10 of the 13 home developed capped players.

The entire Munster development relies on 6 schools; 3 Cork (PBC, CBC and Bandon) 2 Limerick (Munchins and Ardscoil) and 1 Tipp (Rockwell) with a smattering of help from 3 more Limerick schools and the clubs. It's really the two Cork City schools and Munchins driving the whole thing. There are no schools developing players in Kerry, Waterford or Clare.

I would say on first glance that there is huge scope to increase the participation across different schools

some of those in the rugby schools will have moved and will have played some/most their underage in clubs. Jj hanrahan was spotted in a Munster u16 clubs playoff.
There isnt schools in Waterford, Kerry or Clare as it's the club game that is key and rules there. Waterpark, ennis are where Munster can really grow. Jack o Donoghue, won o connor are waterpark, Tom ahearn is dungarvan. That's where Munster can grow more not trying to get new schools to a status..

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, I just included the schools because they have a rugby programme (afaik) and compete in schools competitions. Not sure about St. Brendan's CBS though.

most schools do play rugby but at lower levels in Munster anyway most schools will play very few games in cup competition and not train much unless they play in c school league but not many do that.

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that isnt and cant ever be the answer. These schools have such funding privately in addition to excellent coaching and big numbers playing.
Ulster has some excellent schools but all too often a lot of talented rugby players just dont stay in Ireland for university so not playing here after...
Connacht has a good system in place but just doesnt have numbers compared to other provinces.
Munster are going right way. Schools cup format changed to help but just spending money on two schools goes against everything in proper long term development of the game and would make things worse in the sport overall and cause more problems than aid things for pro rugby

Munster are going the right way how?

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Munster are going the right way how?

read rest of my post. Schools formats changing to get kids more games. Clubs formats getting best players playing more against each other. A clubs combined side played in schools cup group format. The underage provincial squads have improved and it just will take time to show at pro level.
We didnt have any pro players from Waterford between Murray kinsella time in academy and Jack o Donoghue joining the set up. Now there is eoin o Connor, Tom ahearn as well and there will be more. Munster are going the right way.

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

read rest of my post. Schools formats changing to get kids more games. Clubs formats getting best players playing more against each other. A clubs combined side played in schools cup group format. The underage provincial squads have improved and it just will take time to show at pro level.
We didnt have any pro players from Waterford between Murray kinsella time in academy and Jack o Donoghue joining the set up. Now there is eoin o Connor, Tom ahearn as well and there will be more. Munster are going the right way.

To be fair, the rest of your post simply read:

"Schools cup format changed to help but just spending money on two schools goes against everything in proper long term development of the game and would make things worse in the sport overall and cause more problems than aid things for pro rugby"

Only the bold part related to what Munster were actually doing, and it was very vague. Hence my question.

But back to what Munster are doing - these all seem like good ideas, increased numbers is definitely promising, but bridging the gap between the standard of players going into the academies will require a lot more than getting kids more games.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

To be fair, the rest of your post simply read:

"Schools cup format changed to help but just spending money on two schools goes against everything in proper long term development of the game and would make things worse in the sport overall and cause more problems than aid things for pro rugby"

Only the bold part related to what Munster were actually doing, and it was very vague. Hence my question.

But back to what Munster are doing - these all seem like good ideas, increased numbers is definitely promising, but bridging the gap between the standard of players going into the academies will require a lot more than getting kids more games.

of course and coaches workshops etc are happening. Development officers helping schools is happening. It just takes a long time to show up at pro level. Getting kids playing more is a major start. Especially the best clubs playing each other far more.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

some of those in the rugby schools will have moved and will have played some/most their underage in clubs. Jj hanrahan was spotted in a Munster u16 clubs playoff.
There isnt schools in Waterford, Kerry or Clare as it's the club game that is key and rules there. Waterpark, ennis are where Munster can really grow. Jack o Donoghue, won o connor are waterpark, Tom ahearn is dungarvan. That's where

The club game isn't producing players at a sustainable rate. CBC Cork and PBC Cork are each producing more players than the entire entire club system across Munster. You get more time with players at crucial development periods in the schools game.

I wouldn't confuse the clubs acting as a bridge between the schools and provincial set up with a stand alone club development system. If players don't go to a rugby school the outcomes are generally terrible. Only 4 of the 25 home developed players in the Munster squad didn't play schools rugby.

The record is even worse if you include Munster players playing professionally for other clubs:
Zebo (PBC), Ryan (Munchins), Cronin (Ardscoil), Burke (CBC), Conor Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Stephen Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Butler (Rockwell), Scanlon (Cresent), McMahon (Rockwell), Johnston (Rockwell). The only exception is Dillane.

The Lost Sheep

snotboogie wrote: »

The club game isn't producing players at a sustainable rate. CBC Cork and PBC Cork are each producing more players than the entire entire club system across Munster. You get more time with players at crucial development periods in the schools game.

I wouldn't confuse the clubs acting as a bridge between the schools and provincial set up with a stand alone club development system. If players don't go to a rugby school the outcomes are generally terrible. Only 4 of the 25 home developed players in the Munster squad didn't play schools rugby.

The record is even worse if you include Munster players playing professionally for other clubs:
Zebo (PBC), Ryan (Munchins), Cronin (Ardscoil), Burke (CBC), Conor Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Stephen Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Butler (Rockwell), Scanlon (Cresent), McMahon (Rockwell), Johnston (Rockwell). The only exception is Dillane.

donncha Ryan who spent one year in mucnhins. Stephen McMahon who spent two years in Rockwell.
The rugby schools pool is extremely limited and not working in Munster. The club game can and will with better resources and not looking at a schools system that simply wont happen for all kinds of reasons in Munster. Paddy butler was also extensively involved in cashel.
You can with right processes in place within club combines with regional youths teams get more pros and Munster are going that way with what they're doing

jacothelad

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that isnt and cant ever be the answer. These schools have such funding privately in addition to excellent coaching and big numbers playing.
Ulster has some excellent schools but all too often a lot of talented rugby players just dont stay in Ireland for university so not playing here after...
Connacht has a good system in place but just doesnt have numbers compared to other provinces.
Munster are going right way. Schools cup format changed to help but just spending money on two schools goes against everything in proper long term development of the game and would make things worse in the sport overall and cause more problems than aid things for pro rugby

In the past many of Ulster's schools were allowed to admit fee paying pupils. My old school, M.C.B., had a large number plus many boarders from oversees and from around Ireland and even G.B. Other schools had a similar history. All that was flushed away after the G.F.A. when basically, fee paying was virtually banned except in limited areas as part of the begrudging political dogma of one party. Schools must follow the National Curriculum.They have little room to manoeuver within it's guidelines. They have limited funding for extra curricular activities and can't overtly pay for specialist rugby coaches and they have a limited ability to raise extra funding for sports when ostensibly their brief is purely academic.


Also, sadly due to great demographic changes in N.I.quite a few of the 'Rugby' schools are no longer in existence or have shrunk so much that they can no longer realistically compete and thus guys are lost to the game forever. Then there is the brain drain. Guys going to G.B. post school are lost never to return. It's not all doom and gloom but it isn't a rosy picture either.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

donncha Ryan who spent one year in mucnhins. Stephen McMahon who spent two years in Rockwell.
The rugby schools pool is extremely limited and not working in Munster. The club game can and will with better resources and not looking at a schools system that simply wont happen for all kinds of reasons in Munster. Paddy butler was also extensively involved in cashel.
You can with right processes in place within club combines with regional youths teams get more pros and Munster are going that way with what they're doing

I know Munster are going that way but they are wrong. The clubs don't train enough. In the 2 or 3 year senior cup cycle the players are in 5 or 6 days a week with top coaches.

You are trying to pick holes rather than addressing the point, the club game isn't producing players. 21 of the 25 home developed players played schools rugby. Only 18 of the 328 caps from home developed players are coming from players who didn't play schools. If the schools game isn't working the club game for sure is not working.

I don't see what is stopping Munster putting 3 or 4 part time coaches into a school, like for instance any one of the multiple new schools being built across the province, developing a system and trying to expand the schools base. Funding? Idealism? I think there is a false self image in Munster of a bunch of rough and tumble club rugby country lads, when throughout the entire professional era it's primarily relied on 5 or 6 schools to provide 80+% of their home players, at least in the professional era.

Cookiemunster

Latest Squad update. https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/01/14/squad-update-munster-prepare-for-ospreys-in-champions-cup/

Following Sunday’s clash against Racing 92, Jean Kleyn will go for a scan on his neck.

Tommy O’Donnell (hamstring) is continuing to rehab.

Fineen Wycherley is continuing to follow return to play protocols and may be available this weekend.

Joey Carbery underwent successful surgery on a wrist injury last week and will begin rehabilitation with the medical department.

Continuing to rehab: Tadhg Beirne (ankle), Brian Scott (foot), Tyler Bleyendaal (neck), Ciaran Parker (calf).

The Lost Sheep

snotboogie wrote: »

I know Munster are going that way but they are wrong. The clubs don't train enough. In the 2 or 3 year senior cup cycle the players are in 5 or 6 days a week with top coaches.

You are trying to pick holes rather than addressing the point, the club game isn't producing players. 21 of the 25 home developed players played schools rugby. Only 18 of the 328 caps from homedeveloped players are coming from players who didn't play schools. If the schools game isn't working the club game for sure is not working.

I don't see what is stopping Munster putting 3 or 4 part time coaches into a school, like for instance any one of the multiple new schools being built across the province, developing a system and trying to expand the schools base. Funding? Idealism? I think there is a false self image in Munster of a bunch of rough and tumble club rugby country lads, when throughout the entire professional era it's primarily relied on 5 or 6 schools to provide 80+% of their home players, at least in the professional era.

some clubs dont but many are putting in more and more time and resources into their underage teams and the best players will also be involved in school teams as well as regional teams or provincial sessions so getting a lot of coached sessions per week.

I'm not picking holes. The club game is producing players. It just wont be anywhere the consistent rate of some schools for quite some time. It's highly ignorant of the actual club game to say it isnt working.schools rugby isnt the answer. The rugby base is already there with clubs and there is facilities, coaches and the players already there. It is far easier to build them up and help them and the u16/18.5 cup/plate/bowl than trying to get more schools to senior school cup status.

thomond2006

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Latest Squad update. https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/01/14/squad-update-munster-prepare-for-ospreys-in-champions-cup/

Following Sunday’s clash against Racing 92, Jean Kleyn will go for a scan on his neck.

Tommy O’Donnell (hamstring) is continuing to rehab.

Fineen Wycherley is continuing to follow return to play protocols and may be available this weekend.

Joey Carbery underwent successful surgery on a wrist injury last week and will begin rehabilitation with the medical department.

Continuing to rehab: Tadhg Beirne (ankle), Brian Scott (foot), Tyler Bleyendaal (neck), Ciaran Parker (calf).

I'd go for:
Kilcoyne, Scannell, Knox, Holland, Wycherley, POM, JOD, Stander;
Murray, Healy, Earls, Goggin, Farrell, Conway, Daly

Barron, Loughman, Ryan, Coombes, JOS, Casey, JJH, Sweetnam

Injured: Scott, Parker, Beirne, Kleyn, Wycherley (tbc), TOD, Carbery, Bleyendaal

I really hope we see a few spots for youngsters to start alongside the established players.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

some clubs dont but many are putting in more and more time and resources into their underage teams and the best players will also be involved in school teams as well as regional teams or provincial sessions so getting a lot of coached sessions per week.

I'm not picking holes. The club game is producing players. It just wont be anywhere the consistent rate of some schools for quite some time. It's highly ignorant of the actual club game to say it isnt working.schools rugby isnt the answer. The rugby base is already there with clubs and there is facilities, coaches and the players already there. It is far easier to build them up and help them and the u16/18.5 cup/plate/bowl than trying to get more schools to senior school cup status.

What do you have to support what you are saying?

It is not ignorant to say that the club game isn't producing players because I have given you extensive detail to back it up. Its easier to build up the clubs because the standard is lower, as is reflected by the poor transition to the professional game across Ireland. Its harder to get the schools up to standard but if you do there are greater rewards, as is evidenced by 25 years of professional rugby in Ireland.

slingerz

snotboogie wrote: »

The club game isn't producing players at a sustainable rate. CBC Cork and PBC Cork are each producing more players than the entire entire club system across Munster. You get more time with players at crucial development periods in the schools game.

I wouldn't confuse the clubs acting as a bridge between the schools and provincial set up with a stand alone club development system. If players don't go to a rugby school the outcomes are generally terrible. Only 4 of the 25 home developed players in the Munster squad didn't play schools rugby.

The record is even worse if you include Munster players playing professionally for other clubs:
Zebo (PBC), Ryan (Munchins), Cronin (Ardscoil), Burke (CBC), Conor Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Stephen Fitzgerald (Ardscoil), Butler (Rockwell), Scanlon (Cresent), McMahon (Rockwell), Johnston (Rockwell). The only exception is Dillane.

The bold is a misnomer. Offering scholarships to players after junior cert does not make them schools players. The schools are recruiting standout players from the club game for the purposes of playing schools cup. Players with a school from 1st september in 1st year are bona fide schools players. Players offered these scholarships are clubs players actively recruited

slingerz

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd go for:
Kilcoyne, Scannell, Knox, Holland, Wycherley, POM, JOD, Stander;
Murray, Healy, Earls, Goggin, Farrell, Conway, Daly

Barron, Loughman, Ryan, Coombes, JOS, Casey, JJH, Sweetnam

Injured: Scott, Parker, Beirne, Kleyn, Wycherley (tbc), TOD, Carbery, Bleyendaal

I really hope we see a few spots for youngsters to start alongside the established players.

if there is a case for Munster still qualifying at time of kickoff they will go with the strongest team/squad possible. It could be a case that they need Racing to beat Sarries for them to go through and Munster will need a BP win of their own.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

In the past many of Ulster's schools were allowed to admit fee paying pupils. My old school, M.C.B., had a large number plus many boarders from oversees and from around Ireland and even G.B. Other schools had a similar history. All that was flushed away after the G.F.A. when basically, fee paying was virtually banned except in limited areas as part of the begrudging political dogma of one party. Schools must follow the National Curriculum.They have little room to manoeuver within it's guidelines. They have limited funding for extra curricular activities and can't overtly pay for specialist rugby coaches and they have a limited ability to raise extra funding for sports when ostensibly their brief is purely academic.

Also, sadly due to great demographic changes in N.I.quite a few of the 'Rugby' schools are no longer in existence or have shrunk so much that they can no longer realistically compete and thus guys are lost to the game forever. Then there is the brain drain. Guys going to G.B. post school are lost never to return. It's not all doom and gloom but it isn't a rosy picture either.

When the GAA faced a similar issue in Dublin (limited budget to provide physical education, sport etc.), the GAA offered schools free coaching by their development officers to even the fee paying schools. Maybe Ulster Rugby could think of something similar. It is probably easier (and cheaper) to provide soccer, GAA, athletics in schools and that is why schools take that option. Even the private schools were only too delighted to avail of the free coaching from the GAA.

snotboogie

slingerz wrote: »

The bold is a misnomer. Offering scholarships to players after junior cert does not make them schools players. The schools are recruiting standout players from the club game for the purposes of playing schools cup. Players with a school from 1st september in 1st year are bona fide schools players. Players offered these scholarships are clubs players actively recruited

Do you have any numbers for the players recruited after Junior Cert? Even still, a 3, 2 or even 1 year senior cup cycle is massively beneficial to a player.

This still doesn't change the fact that players developed outside of the schools system are an absolute minority in the professional game. Hoping the club game will pick up the slack is absolutely fanciful. I have yet to see any evidence that clubs can consistently produce professional players.

Serbian

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is that the same larkham that was being groomed to be Chiekas replacement? Or a cousin?

I know you want to believe that you have great coaches in place, but that's a nonsense statement. Cheika is being replaced, and it isn't by Stephen Larkham.

Noted that he's not the head coach for Munster, but if you look at his record with Brumbies, it's not great. He only qualified for play-offs because Brumbies were the best of four very poor Australian club sides; the top team from each country is guaranteed a play-off place. They made the quarter finals in his last season in charge despite losing 60% of their games. It's just a fact that he was not good for Brumbies.

His work with Australia appears to be better, particularly in 2015 and 2019 when they put 47 points on NZ (albeit 34 of those points coming after Scott Barrett's red card), but to argue he's any better than unproven with potential would be to ignore his work to date.