Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Eod100

So looking like even if we beat Racing without tbp and get a tbp vs Ospreys, unless Saracens don't get a tbp vs Racing we wont top group. A lbp loss v Racing and tbp win v Ospreys wont be enough for 2nd if Saracens beat Racing. Hate to say it but think the permutations are against us.

randomrb

aloooof wrote: »

I think people occasionally forget about Johnny Holland when discussing the 10 situation at Munster. I suspect if he didn't have to retire, and kept progressing, Carbery may not have moved to Munster at all.

Munster really have had a torrid time with outhalves since ROG left, there have been lots who have had the potential to be top quality but none of them ever really kicked on whether through injury or otherwise.

Imagine where we could have been if JJ reached his potential on a consistent basis or if Tyler hadn't been as unlucky with injury or if Johnny Holland as mentioned above hadn't had to retire.

I would also put Bill Johnson in there as he never really pushed on to be a starting ten when the opportunities were there.

Cookiemunster

kuang1 wrote: »

I never heard the full story behind the logic of this move.. Thought he was a great prospect myself?

He was behind Carbery, TB and JJ and all signed contract extensions last season. That told him how much rugby he was going to get.

Yes with the injuries he would probably have gotten more minutes this season, but in the long run if he gets minutes in Ulster and Healey gets them down here, it's better for everyone all round.

Interested Observer

Eod100 wrote: »

So looking like even if we beat Racing without tbp and get a tbp vs Ospreys, unless Saracens don't get a tbp vs Racing we wont top group. A lbp loss v Racing and tbp win v Ospreys wont be enough for 2nd if Saracens beat Racing. Hate to say it but think the permutations are against us.

This effectively seems to be a knockout game for Munster. If Racing win they've topped the group and Munster will be behind Saracens, who aren't going to lose at home to Racing imo. Win or bust on Sunday.

aloooof

kuang1 wrote: »

I never heard the full story behind the logic of this move.. Thought he was a great prospect myself?

He's further up the depth chart. He's had 4 starts in the Pro14 and has come off the bench against Clermont and Harlequins. He was unlikely to get as much gametime at Munster, once Bleyendaal and JJ were retained.

Cookiemunster

Eod100 wrote: »

So looking like even if we beat Racing without tbp and get a tbp vs Ospreys, unless Saracens don't get a tbp vs Racing we wont top group. A lbp loss v Racing and tbp win v Ospreys wont be enough for 2nd if Saracens beat Racing. Hate to say it but think the permutations are against us.

I honestly couldn't care less who tops the pool if we manage to qualify. Quite simply, win the two games and see what happens.

Jump_In_Jack

kuang1 wrote: »

I never heard the full story behind the logic of this move.. Thought he was a great prospect myself?

The logic was straight forward, Johnston was the 5th senior 10 on the books, behind Carbery, Bleyendaal, Keatley, Hanrahan.
Keatley moved on, but with 3 senior 10's ahead of him, and Healy and Flannery coming into the academy with potential, and Alan Tynan could also play 10, it was the best option for him.
If Tyler retires, it will still be Carbery and Hanrahan for the foreseeable future, with Healy joining the senior squad in a couple of years.

Eod100

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I honestly couldn't care less who tops the pool if we manage to qualify. Quite simply, win the two games and see what happens.

Yeah of course. They're only the 2 matches we can control the outcome

Yeah_Right

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Bleyendaal doesn't retire then Munster should come to a deal and let him go. He's under contract for another year but this can't go on. Healy will hopefully take his opportunities over the next few months to the point where (a fit) Bleyendaal would be surplus to requirements. There's also Jake Flannery to consider, though his future may lie at fullback.

Its such a shame about Bleyendaal. I remember seeing him in the NZ u20s and at Canterbury and the Crusaders. Such a talent. I am starting to think retirement might be in his best interests. Hope he has good insurance.

Henry Ford III

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Its such a shame about Bleyendaal. I remember seeing him in the NZ u20s and at Canterbury and the Crusaders. Such a talent. I am starting to think retirement might be in his best interests. Hope he has good insurance.

He'll not get a huge payout at 29 regardless.

Squidgy Black

James Haskell and Ellis Genge were discussing the whole insurance thing on the latest House of Rugby episode. Apparently if you have a pre-existing condition (so if you previously had the injury and were scanned for it etc) insurance won't pay out if you eventually retire because of it. Haskell was saying how they wouldn't pay out when his foot injury forced him to retire from the Saints because they said it was a pre-existing condition going back to his Wasps days.

stephen_n

kingofthekong wrote: »

Agree with this, theres a massive over estimation and overating of Munster players by Munster fans.

Can’t think of Any Leinster fans who do that at all, nope :rolleyes:

Superfoods

I never understood the signing of Bleyendaal, he has been at Munster since 2015 and played regular one season. Apart from that he is injured. They let a decent young Irish player go and kept him in the knowledge he would probably get an injury. Carbery has been prone to injury so it would not have been hard to work out they would end up with JJ and Healy as options moving forward.

Also when Bleyendaal did pick up an injury they didn't give minutes to Healy to get him better experience.

Seems extremely poor planning by everyone at Munster

sydthebeat

The weirdest thing about the signing of Bleyendaal is that he was a sufferer of neck injuries BEFORE he even joined munster.

he missed 2/3s of the ITM competition in 2014 with a neck injury which kept him out of the game for 4 months IIRC

thomond2006

Superfoods wrote: »

I never understood the signing of Bleyendaal, he has been at Munster since 2015 and played regular one season. Apart from that he is injured. They let a decent young Irish player go and kept him in the knowledge he would probably get an injury. Carbery has been prone to injury so it would not have been hard to work out they would end up with JJ and Healy as options moving forward.

Also when Bleyendaal did pick up an injury they didn't give minutes to Healy to get him better experience.

Seems extremely poor planning by everyone at Munster

What decent young Irish player are you referring to?

Ben Healy only turned 20 last June. It was hardly appropriate to put him into the senior side for significant appearances last season.

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

What decent young Irish player are you referring to?

Ben Healy only turned 20 last June. It was hardly appropriate to put him into the senior side for significant appearances last season.

Assuming he's talking about Johnston.

Superfoods

thomond2006 wrote: »

What decent young Irish player are you referring to?

Ben Healy only turned 20 last June. It was hardly appropriate to put him into the senior side for significant appearances last season.

Johnson I was referring to, who has looked decent for Ulster when I seen him

I found it strange they hung onto Bleyendaal and let Johnson go. Especially when you consider Carbery was always going to be with the Ireland squad when possible.

They will say they kept Bleyendaal for his experience, pointless having a player with experience when he is hardly ever available to play

Kirk Van Houten

Superfoods wrote: »

Johnson I was referring to, who has looked decent for Ulster when I seen him

I found it strange they hung onto Bleyendaal and let Johnson go. Especially when you consider Carbery was always going to be with the Ireland squad when possible.

They will say they kept Bleyendaal for his experience, pointless having a player with experience when he is hardly ever available to play

I imagine the thought process was along the lines of Carbery is the first choice, JJ his back up and Tyler adds the experience if needed. That leaves little game time at senior level for the 4th choice if all fit.

I'm glad Munster made the call to move Johnson on. For too long we haven't had the top quality players to challenge. Of Johnson isn't deemed to be good enough then let him move on and let's give Healy the opportunity. Because if Johnson was still in Munster Healy wouldn't be getting gametime at senior level and the normal trolls would be giving out about that.

Develd

Superfoods wrote: »

Johnson I was referring to, who has looked decent for Ulster when I seen him

I found it strange they hung onto Bleyendaal and let Johnson go. Especially when you consider Carbery was always going to be with the Ireland squad when possible.

They will say they kept Bleyendaal for his experience, pointless having a player with experience when he is hardly ever available to play

But it is not only what Munster want, it is also if the player wants to stay. Tyler's injury profile would I guess make it an attractive option for him to stay where he had been looked after. Bill, had plenty of injuries himself but if he wants to be a first team player he had to move, if he doesn't at the end of his contact, it is a strong possibility he would have to leave anyway in a much weaker position.

Eod100

Is team usually out today or tomorrow for a Sunday ko?

yerrahbah

Eod100 wrote: »

Is team usually out today or tomorrow for a Sunday ko?

Today about 11.50

Superfoods

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

I imagine the thought process was along the lines of Carbery is the first choice, JJ his back up and Tyler adds the experience if needed. That leaves little game time at senior level for the 4th choice if all fit.

I'm glad Munster made the call to move Johnson on. For too long we haven't had the top quality players to challenge. Of Johnson isn't deemed to be good enough then let him move on and let's give Healy the opportunity. Because if Johnson was still in Munster Healy wouldn't be getting gametime at senior level and the normal trolls would be giving out about that.

Think you missed my point. If you look at end of last season Munster had
1. Carbery 2. JJ 3. Bleyndaal 4. Keatley 5. Johnson 6. Healy

Ok so Keatley had moved already and that made sense for him and Munster. So you look at the other group.

Carbery: You starting 10 and hopefully available for big games but will be away with Irish team a lot. Hopefully the guy to get Munster to a HC final. Seems a bit injury prone
JJ: Decent player, bit of a run of back luck but still young and probably class as HC group stage quality
Bleyndaal: Decent player, again HC group stages quality. Constantly injured
Johnson: Young player and unknown but seems ok at Pro14 level
Healy: Hopefully future

If I looked at that group the one player I would drop if Bleyndaal. He was out of contract and to be fair Munster didn't really owe him anything because they had paid his wages for a significant period while he never played. Yes for Bleynadaal it made perfect sense to resign because no club would sign him due to his injury record.

With the knowledge of Carbery injury record as well it made even less sense to keep another injury prone 10.

aloooof

I wonder if they saw Bleyendaal as an option at 12. I could see Larkham being a fan in that regard.

Also, to be fair as well, Carbery's injury woes seem to have escalated since Tyler signed the contract. I don't think he was seen as so injury prone at the time?

hahashake

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Its such a shame about Bleyendaal. I remember seeing him in the NZ u20s and at Canterbury and the Crusaders. Such a talent. I am starting to think retirement might be in his best interests. Hope he has good insurance.

For me his most memorable moment in NZ was missing 5 consecutive penalty kicks in a game vs the Chiefs (Crusaders lost the game 18-10, James Lowe scored a try in the dying minutes for the Chiefs too). Maybe that sounds harsh as he wasn't a bad player but it sticks in my mind as a defining moment.

daddy pig

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Healy wouldn't be getting gametime at senior level and the normal trolls would be giving out about that.

In the Pro 14 this season
Carberry (24) : 2 Apps, 104 Minutes
Hanrahan (27) : 9 Apps, 465 Minutes
Bleyendaal (29) : 6 Apps, 254 Minutes
Healy (20) : 1 App, 61 Minutes

In the Champions Cup this season
Carberry (24) : 0 Apps
Hanrahan (27) : 3 Apps, 240 Minutes
Bleyendaal (29) : 1 App, 80 Minutes
Healy (20) : 0 Apps

Healy hasn't been getting any gametime though - that is the issue .
Carberry was never going to play much this season with Irish commitments and injury. It was a miracle Bleyendaal even played as much as he did this year.
Maybe a Munster fan can let me know why on earth hasn't Healy or any academy players been blooded this year?
For comparison the fourth choice Leinster fly half has had 6 Apps for 234 Minutes this year.

thomond2006

Superfoods wrote: »

Johnson I was referring to, who has looked decent for Ulster when I seen him

I found it strange they hung onto Bleyendaal and let Johnson go. Especially when you consider Carbery was always going to be with the Ireland squad when possible.

They will say they kept Bleyendaal for his experience, pointless having a player with experience when he is hardly ever available to play

Johnston hadn't pushed up the depth chart and he was never going to. Keeping Bleyendaal around on another two year contract is questionable. I don't think letting go Johnston was, although he could prove that false.

aloooof

daddy pig wrote: »

Maybe a Munster fan can let me know why on earth hasn't Healy or any academy players been blooded this year?

Munster academy players have 578 minutes this season. Leinster academy players have 753.

The difference isn't as stark as you're making out, especially when you consider senior guys like Wycherly (who has featured in every game but one), Shane Daly (who has started 8 games) Calvin Nash, Gavin Coombes etc. are all 23 or under.

Munster are giving youth much more of a chance this season, but we still see te comments like this on here.

daddy pig

aloooof wrote: »

Munster academy players have 578 minutes this season. Leinster academy players have 753.

The difference isn't as stark as you're making out, especially when you consider senior guys like Wycherly (who has featured in every game but one), Shane Daly (who has started 8 games) Calvin Nash, Gavin Coombes etc. are all 23 or under.

Munster are giving youth much more of a chance this season, but we still see te comments like this on here.

But I'm not talking about academy players as a whole. I never made out that there was any stark difference there.
I am talking specifically about the number 10 position where the difference is quite clearly stark as the numbers point out.

yerrahbah

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/preview/team-named-munster-side-for-racing-92-clash/

Munster: Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Keith Earls; JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer; Jean Kleyn, Billy Holland; Peter O’Mahony (C), Jack O’Donoghue, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Chris Cloete, Craig Casey, Dan Goggin, Shane Daly.

Here We Go!

Buer

Healy will get a couple more starts before the end of the season. He won't suddenly be thrown into the deep end. The problem for him is that Munster have had a shakey period and now they'll want to build momentum and get things back on track. With that in mind, they're going to be conservative with selections for the time being.

Carbery is out for 2-4 months. If he's back in April, Munster are going to invest time in him to have him ready for potential playoff games.

Healy is going to have to squeeze in game time between that and it's not going to be a huge amount. He's a talented bloke but he wasn't exactly a nailed on player at U20 level for Ireland. Hopefully he continues to develop and rounds out his game before becoming a real option for Munster over the next 18 months.