Good article detailing Dublin's unfair funding advantage

Perifect

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Kerry hurlers are Division 1. Give me 17 million and they will win a Munster title in 10 years.

I think if you gave any county that much money they would do damage. And is it not much more than 17 million? They have sponsorship money on top of that and has anyone figured out is the Irish sports council grant on top of that again? Serious money.

Perifect

gaffer91 wrote: »

The article barely touches on other sources of significant funding.

See this article on the funding Bertie Ahern helped provide for instance.

If you google "Bertie Ahern Dublin GAA", there are loads more like it.

Then AIG giving €4 million, and their other 'partners', and you see how this is really a massive problem.

:eek: So the 13 million from the government is just specifically for Dublin! Are they still getting that money this year? When does it end? Why hasn't it been stopped? I've read people use the term financial doping, this is now similar to what we have seen in Russia; state sponsored doping!

Sonny678

ClanofLams wrote:

The Kerry team that won four in a row best Dublin by seventeen points in 78 and eleven points in 79. Automatically assigning Dublin those all Ireland’s in the absence of O’Dwyer is daft.

If kerry didnt win Sam in 78 79. Dublin were still miles better then any other county in Ireland. In 78 final Dublin raced into 6 or 7 point lead. Dub defenders pushed up to far. Sheedy scored the famous goal. It seemed to rattle Dublin. Then Bomber ran riot in second half. 1978 Dublin were still stronger then Offaly Armagh or Roscommon, the best of the rest. Ok 79 they were in decline. But still wud have been second best team in the country. But Dublin were good enough to win All-Ireland in 74 75 76 77 and maybe 78. No other manager wud have won Sam with kerry in 75 then Micko. He won Sam with a group of under 21 players in 1975. The only other time in history of gaelic football that group of under 21s won Sam was Meath in 1996 under Boylan. No one gave kerry a chance in 1975. They were beaten in a league quater final by Meath in spring 75. And at the end of the league most kerry supporters where worried Cork who had won Sam a year beforehand would hammer kerry in Munster final. Kerry winning in 1975 was a massive shock even for kerry supporters. The idea Dublin cud have won 4 in a row in 70s isnt as far fetched as u think.

ClanofLams wrote:

Meath had serious footballers too, suggesting they wouldn’t have won a Leinster title without Sean Boylan is crazy.

Before Boylan took over Meath players like Colm O Rourke Gerry McEntee Liam Hayes Mick Lyons Liam Harnan Joe Cassells were on Meath teams that were beaten by Wexford in 81 and longford in 83. Both longford and Wexford in 82 and 83 were in div 4. Meath were heading towards div 4 before Boylan took over. No one wanted the Meath job in 83. Person after person turned it down. Meath football in early 83 was at its lowest ebb ever. They offered the job to Boylan for a couple of months coz no one else wud take it. Boylan stayed 22 years manager after. Not one member of Meath team 87 88 had underage medal between them. The team people were tipping for sucess in leinster in 1986 was laois not Meath. Laois hammered Meath in 1985 and won national league div 1 title for first time ever in Spring 1986. Laois had a brillant team at the the time. The difference was Meath had Boylan.

Players like O Rourke lyons McEntee Hayes are legends now .But before Boylan took over they were going nowhere but div 4. If Boylan didnt take over there was no one in Meath that cud have been called a good inter county manager at the time. U cannot be sucessful without a good manager. If Boylan didnt take over in 83 I cannot see how anyone can make the argument that Meath wud have won Sam in 87 88. Name the manager in Meath that cud have done what Boylan did. There was no one.

Dublin in 1986 had won 10 of the previous 12 leinster titles. And Dublin had played in 8 of the previous All Ireland finals. Dublin were just as dominate as they are now as they were in mid 80s. The only difference was kerry cud beat them in late 70s and early 80s. Kerry cannot beat them now. Thats the only difference. In 1985 1986 Dublin were seen as unbeatable in leinster. Yet between 1986 and 1991 Meath would play Dublin in 9 games and only lose once. Boylan is central to Meaths sucess in late 80s. If he didnt take over in 83 the idea that Meath wouldnt win leinster title in late 80s is not as far fetched as u think. In spring 1986 no one expected Meath to win 1 leinster title and definatly no one predicted 4 leinster titles two league div 1 titles and two in a row in 5 years. No one saw that coming.

Boylan turned O Connell who was an average full forward in 86 into best wing back of his generation. Stafford was turned from unknown junior Meath footballer into the best freetaker of his generation.

In 1996 no one saw Meath winning Sam. Dublin hammered Meath in 96. Carlow were favourites to beat Meath in 96 leinster championship after Carlow team won leinster club title. Darren Fay was struggling wing back early in the spring of 96. By the end of the year he was best full back in Ireland. Brendan Reilly was solid corner back in mid 90s. In 1996 Boylan turned him into best target man full forward in the country. At the start of 96 Reilly was solid corner back. By end of 96 Reilly scored the greatest winning point in an All Ireland final from play in last 50 years. Ollie Murphy struggled to get on Meath team for 5 years. Boylan kept working with him and by 99 Murphy was best corner forward in Ireland. McDermont took 6 years before he became great player. In 96 in the summer it was felt Meath had a poor midfield. McDermont was now in his 6 year in Meath panel. Boylan kept faith with him and he came the best midfielder in Ireland by end of the year.

Meath won Sam in 96 with 7 under 21 players . That has only happened twice. Kerry in 1975 and Meath in 96 won Sam with under 21 players. No one and I mean no one would have been able to win Sam.with a Meaths in 96 other then Boylan. And again the idea that Meath wouldnt have won leinster title in late 90s without Boylan is not as far fetched as u think. Dublin were very strong. Kildare had their best team in 90 years. And Offaly won leinster and league 1 div title in 98. Without Boylan Meath wud have struggled. Meath had a couple of great players like Giles Geraghty Fay but many junior footballers were brought on who didnt stand at club level. But under Boylan these average inter club players became serious inter county players who could beat Dublin.

Meath might have won 1 or 2 leinster titles without Boylan but no way would they have won 8 leinster titles 4 All Ireland titles and 3 national league div 1 titles without him. If they would have. Name the manager in Meath who could have done what Boylan did. The fact is other then Boylan Meath have never had another great inter county manager. Actually Meath have never had a good inter county manager other then Boylan. The only other sucessful Meath managers in last 50 years are Colm Coyle and Eamon O Brien. Who won 1 leinster title between them.

ClanofLams wrote:

This is all a bit simplistic, giving O’Dwyer and Borlan sole credit for their teams achievements. Two great managers but fortunate to work with great teams.

Yes Meath and kerry had great players. But Boylan and Dwyer turned them into great teams. Boylan turned Meath into great team. I refer to above. Again Kerry in mid 70s if u asked anyone what team in Munster would win 4 in a row in a few years , everyone including kerry supporters wud have said Cork. Cork won brillant All-Ireland in 73 playing brillant football. Many people thought Dublin caught Cork on the hop in 1974. It was expected Dublin and Cork would dominate football from 1975 onwards. No one expected kerry wud win in 75. Dublin won in 76 77. In 78 it was felt kerry were 1 All Ireland team and couldnt beat Dublin. They would win 4 in a row. After losing to Cork and Offaly in 82 and 83. Many kerry supporters wanted Dwyer gone. It was felt that kerry team was finished in 1983. They would win a three in a row in 84 85 86.

The fact is Boylan and Dwyer are the two greatest managers in football history. They built 6 sucessful teams between them. Boylan built 3 sucessful team eg 1987 88 team , 1996 team and 1999 team. Dwyer built three sucessful teams eg Kerry 75 to 86 team , kildare 97 to 2000 and Laois 2003 to 05 team.
Name any other manager in gaelic football who built 3 All Ireland winning teams like Boylan. Other then John O Mahoney name any other manager then Mick Dwyer who built 3 sucessful teams in 3 different counties. Ask any of those Meath or Kerry players if they would have done what they did without Boylan or Dwyer.

Would Man Utd have been as sucessful if Ferguson was never made manager. Would Ireland be as sucessful if Scdmit was not made manager. Would New England Patriots have been sucessful if Bendrickt was not made manager. A great manager can turn a team of unsucessful players into a great team.

Mr. Incognito

Sonny678 wrote: »

If kerry didnt win Sam in 78 79. Dublin were still miles better then any other county in Ireland. In 78 final Dublin raced into 6 or 7 point lead. Dub defenders pushed up to far. Sheedy scored the famous goal. It seemed to rattle Dublin. Then Bomber ran riot in second half. 1978 Dublin were still stronger then Offaly Armagh or Roscommon, the best of the rest. Ok 79 they were in decline. But still wud have been second best team in the country. But Dublin were good enough to win All-Ireland in 74 75 76 77 and maybe 78. No other manager wud have won Sam with kerry in 75 then Micko. He won Sam with a group of under 21 players in 1975. The only other time in history of gaelic football that group of under 21s won Sam was Meath in 1996 under Boylan. No one gave kerry a chance in 1975. They were beaten in a league quater final by Meath in spring 75. And at the end of the league most kerry supporters where worried Cork who had won Sam a year beforehand would hammer kerry in Munster final. Kerry winning in 1975 was a massive shock even for kerry supporters. The idea Dublin cud have won 4 in a row in 70s isnt as far fetched as u think.




Before Boylan took over Meath players like Colm O Rourke Gerry McEntee Liam Hayes Mick Lyons Liam Harnan Joe Cassells were on Meath teams that were beaten by Wexford in 81 and longford in 83. Both longford and Wexford in 82 and 83 were in div 4. Meath were heading towards div 4 before Boylan took over. No one wanted the Meath job in 83. Person after person turned it down. Meath football in early 83 was at its lowest ebb ever. They offered the job to Boylan for a couple of months coz no one else wud take it. Boylan stayed 22 years manager after. Not one member of Meath team 87 88 had underage medal between them. The team people were tipping for sucess in leinster in 1986 was laois not Meath. Laois hammered Meath in 1985 and won national league div 1 title for first time ever in Spring 1986. Laois had a brillant team at the the time. The difference was Meath had Boylan.

Players like O Rourke lyons McEntee Hayes are legends now .But before Boylan took over they were going nowhere but div 4. If Boylan didnt take over there was no one in Meath that cud have been called a good inter county manager at the time. U cannot be sucessful without a good manager. If Boylan didnt take over in 83 I cannot see how anyone can make the argument that Meath wud have won Sam in 87 88. Name the manager in Meath that cud have done what Boylan did. There was no one.

Dublin in 1986 had won 10 of the previous 12 leinster titles. And Dublin had played in 8 of the previous All Ireland finals. Dublin were just as dominate as they are now as they were in mid 80s. The only difference was kerry cud beat them in late 70s and early 80s. Kerry cannot beat them now. Thats the only difference. In 1985 1986 Dublin were seen as unbeatable in leinster. Yet between 1986 and 1991 Meath would play Dublin in 9 games and only lose once. Boylan is central to Meaths sucess in late 80s. If he didnt take over in 83 the idea that Meath wouldnt win leinster title in late 80s is not as far fetched as u think. In spring 1986 no one expected Meath to win 1 leinster title and definatly no one predicted 4 leinster titles two league div 1 titles and two in a row in 5 years. No one saw that coming.

Boylan turned O Connell who was an average full forward in 86 into best wing back of his generation. Stafford was turned from unknown junior Meath footballer into the best freetaker of his generation.

In 1996 no one saw Meath winning Sam. Dublin hammered Meath in 96. Carlow were favourites to beat Meath in 96 leinster championship after Carlow team won leinster club title. Darren Fay was struggling wing back early in the spring of 96. By the end of the year he was best full back in Ireland. Brendan Reilly was solid corner back in mid 90s. In 1996 Boylan turned him into best target man full forward in the country. At the start of 96 Reilly was solid corner back. By end of 96 Reilly scored the greatest winning point in an All Ireland final from play in last 50 years. Ollie Murphy struggled to get on Meath team for 5 years. Boylan kept working with him and by 99 Murphy was best corner forward in Ireland. McDermont took 6 years before he became great player. In 96 in the summer it was felt Meath had a poor midfield. McDermont was now in his 6 year in Meath panel. Boylan kept faith with him and he came the best midfielder in Ireland by end of the year.

Meath won Sam in 96 with 7 under 21 players . That has only happened twice. Kerry in 1975 and Meath in 96 won Sam with under 21 players. No one and I mean no one would have been able to win Sam.with a Meaths in 96 other then Boylan. And again the idea that Meath wouldnt have won leinster title in late 90s without Boylan is not as far fetched as u think. Dublin were very strong. Kildare had their best team in 90 years. And Offaly won leinster and league 1 div title in 98. Without Boylan Meath wud have struggled. Meath had a couple of great players like Giles Geraghty Fay but many junior footballers were brought on who didnt stand at club level. But under Boylan these average inter club players became serious inter county players who could beat Dublin.

Meath might have won 1 or 2 leinster titles without Boylan but no way would they have won 8 leinster titles 4 All Ireland titles and 3 national league div 1 titles without him. If they would have. Name the manager in Meath who could have done what Boylan did. The fact is other then Boylan Meath have never had another great inter county manager. Actually Meath have never had a good inter county manager other then Boylan. The only other sucessful Meath managers in last 50 years are Colm Coyle and Eamon O Brien. Who won 1 leinster title between them.




Yes Meath and kerry had great players. But Boylan and Dwyer turned them into great teams. Boylan turned Meath into great team. I refer to above. Again Kerry in mid 70s if u asked anyone what team in Munster would win 4 in a row in a few years , everyone including kerry supporters wud have said Cork. Cork won brillant All-Ireland in 73 playing brillant football. Many people thought Dublin caught Cork on the hop in 1974. It was expected Dublin and Cork would dominate football from 1975 onwards. No one expected kerry wud win in 75. Dublin won in 76 77. In 78 it was felt kerry were 1 All Ireland team and couldnt beat Dublin. They would win 4 in a row. After losing to Cork and Offaly in 82 and 83. Many kerry supporters wanted Dwyer gone. It was felt that kerry team was finished in 1983. They would win a three in a row in 84 85 86.

The fact is Boylan and Dwyer are the two greatest managers in football history. They built 6 sucessful teams between them. Boylan built 3 sucessful team eg 1987 88 team , 1996 team and 1999 team. Dwyer built three sucessful teams eg Kerry 75 to 86 team , kildare 97 to 2000 and Laois 2003 to 05 team.
Name any other manager in gaelic football who built 3 All Ireland winning teams like Boylan. Other then John O Mahoney name any other manager then Mick Dwyer who built 3 sucessful teams in 3 different counties. Ask any of those Meath or Kerry players if they would have done what they did without Boylan or Dwyer.

Would Man Utd have been as sucessful if Ferguson was never made manager. Would Ireland be as sucessful if Scdmit was not made manager. Would New England Patriots have been sucessful if Bendrickt was not made manager. A great manager can turn a team of unsucessful players into a great team.

This is nonsense and if you are going back to the 1970s you really dont get the point.

Cork was a great team in the 80s and late 70s and only for the best Kerry team of all time would have won a few all irelands.

It is also total deflection and entirely misses the point.

Dublin have had 17 million pumped into them in the last decade.

Talking about previous periods when they were "almost" winning is irrelevant.

Jaden

11 Pages in, and not a single person seems to comprehend what the issue *actually* is, nor do they understand what and how solutions might be implemented.

This thread simply underscores the massive lack of critical thinking that permeates the GAA. You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the issue is.

This thread is a testament to that notion.

Clareman

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think that's a great idea.

Lets pick a county- give them 17 million for ten years and rotate it around and see how they get on.

i highly recommend the ignore list for blatant trollers on this forum. It adds years to your life.

I don't know if you are calling me a troll or not.

How about instead of looking at the 17 million just look at the parts that worked and take that and factor it down by the population of the county being looked at. Let's assume that some money was "lost" doing wrong stuff or trials or or captital projects or something so we can say that ~14million was right on the money (pun intended), that works out at ~1.4 million per year or €1 per person, now I know the arguement can be made that lots of people have no interest in GAA in Dublin but that can go for every county.

Now I don't think it's feasible to flood the country with development officers but maybe the provincial councils could centrally operate it, I would also suggest that all this work would be limited to underage and no funding should go to senior

Clareman

Jaden wrote: »

11 Pages in, and not a single person seems to comprehend what the issue *actually* is, nor do they understand what and how solutions might be implemented.

This thread simply underscores the massive lack of critical thinking that permeates the GAA. You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the issue is.

This thread is a testament to that notion.

To me the "issue" is that Dublin has put/got a massive investment to improve GAA in their county, this has been extremely sucessful to such an extent they are almost unbeatable. Now it's either for other counties to get up to Dublin's level of to drop Dublin down, for me removing Dublin's funding won't have a quick "fix" of implementing a competitive senior football championship as so much work has already gone in and sponsorship funds will plug any hole. Other counties aren't that far away beating Dublin, less than a goal in a lot of finals.

ToBeFrank123

Jaden wrote: »

11 Pages in, and not a single person seems to comprehend what the issue *actually* is, nor do they understand what and how solutions might be implemented.

This thread simply underscores the massive lack of critical thinking that permeates the GAA. You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the issue is.

This thread is a testament to that notion.

Nope. People have clearly identified the issue and offered clear solutions.

Number 1 is attempting to redress some of the imbalances in the sport. So that starts with diverting GAA money from over achieving counties like Dublin to under achieving ones and there are plenty of those.

Throw the same resources at underachieving counties as were thrown at Dublin and then you might have a half decent championship.

Simply put, Dublin have received enough, actually way too much. It seems to be not enough for the GAA to kill the Leinster Championship, they now want to do the same and have largely achieved it, with Sam Maguire. These fools care more about business than sport. They are not alone. We have a major problem with sports administrators in this country bar maybe our rugby administrators who are rarely in the news. Every other administrator seems to be in the business of hindering their sport not helping it.

gaffer91

Jaden wrote: »

11 Pages in, and not a single person seems to comprehend what the issue *actually* is, nor do they understand what and how solutions might be implemented.

This thread simply underscores the massive lack of critical thinking that permeates the GAA. You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the issue is.

This thread is a testament to that notion.

Plenty of people have grasped the issue (i.e overfunding/ financial doping of Dublin at the expense of every other county) raised by the article and proposed meaningful solutions. But please enlighten us.

Clareman wrote: »

To me the "issue" is that Dublin has put/got a massive investment to improve GAA in their county, this has been extremely sucessful to such an extent they are almost unbeatable. Now it's either for other counties to get up to Dublin's level of to drop Dublin down, for me removing Dublin's funding won't have a quick "fix" of implementing a competitive senior football championship as so much work has already gone in and sponsorship funds will plug any hole. Other counties aren't that far away beating Dublin, less than a goal in a lot of finals.

You realise money is finite in the GAA? Especially with declining attendances. Equalising funding won't fix things immediately but will do some bit to remedy the unfairness and will help longer term.

Like most doping though, Dublin are likely to benefit from their financial doping for many years to come. That's no reason to not try and fix things.

Your posts seem very confused- you started out in a position of defending Dublin's massive funding advantage but eventually came around to the position that funding should be equal, but that the equality should come from increases in funding for other counties, rather than a decrease in Dublin funding.

As has been pointed out before, there's no reason sponsorship money couldn't be centrally pooled also, and not just benefit the one county which already has many other advantages.

The_Honeybadger

Jaden wrote: »

11 Pages in, and not a single person seems to comprehend what the issue *actually* is, nor do they understand what and how solutions might be implemented.

This thread simply underscores the massive lack of critical thinking that permeates the GAA. You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the issue is.

This thread is a testament to that notion.

I think the issues have been very well covered, what on earth are you on about here?

The_Honeybadger

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think that's a great idea.

Lets pick a county- give them 17 million for ten years and rotate it around and see how they get on.

i highly recommend the ignore list for blatant trollers on this forum. It adds years to your life.

The reality is that people are deflecting.

They say that the Dublin underage teams are not dominating. That's a straw man argument. Kids dont benefit from sports science. They are kids. They benefit from coaching and practice and only when they get to an older age does the finanical doping kick in with more analysis, more sophisticated sports science. If anything it proves the point. Dublin are not dominating because those players are not naturally the best players. They are coached and moulded into a system that makes them dominate.

Dublins game is a tightly defined system based on an athletic running game. They run and run and run with ball in hand and they will bring in a few more lads off the bench to run. They dont play a particularly stylish game though they do have a few exceptional players. They play in a tightly defined system. They in the main wear you down by sheer athleticism and a deep bench and each player playing a role. Throw in a few reliable free takers and its a template that can take even average or below average kids and win games. Plenty of Dublin players were not underage stars. Brian Fenton was playing Junior B for example. They will analyse a Defensive system like tyrones and systematically take it apart. That system takes resources, analaysis, and lots and lots of money.

You would never see a Gooch play for Dublin for example. A scrawny skillfull player. He just wouldnt fit the template.

Dublin Football had a tradition. Add in the finanical doping and they have dominated Leinster and then the All Ireland. This will continue. One or two traditional counties will give them a game but will eventually be burnt off and Football will be over.

Dublin do not have a hurling tradition. None. Their last all ireland final appearance was 1938. Yet were able to compete from a zero base with enormous financial resources being pumped in brining in outside Counties managers. However Hurling relies much more than football on skill rather than athleticism.

As the coaching improves and the current generation of players turn the corner into coaches then Dublin will have tradition and in another ten years will probably come to Dominate Hurling in the Same way.

The reality is the full time administrators are Dubs and will prioritise their own county and it wont change and they wont care.Throw in the fact they play most of their games at home and it generates money then Dublin are basically a home town team soaking up all the money around

It doesnt detract that they have good players or a good manager or hard working back room team.

But it does detract from the sport and from fair play. Most fair weather fans dont care. And they have jumped on the bandwagon.

Anyone who actually cares about the game and its long term survival does.

I’d agree with this and add that it is interesting that Dublin have also dominated the U21 championship since the funding was ramped up. This grade is usually the best indicator of future senior success and the grade where advanced coaching and sports science starts to have a tangible effect.

I think ultimately the train has left the station and we will continue to see Dublin be very strong, they’ll never fall in to a 95-11 type abyss again which is a good thing actually. There are two potential outcomes, the first being Cluxton, McCarthy, O’Sullivan, Connolly, Brogan et al retire and Dublin fall back to the pack and continue to win 2-4 All Ireland’s per decade.

The second is that they continue to supplement their panel with outstanding youngsters and nearly completely dominate the championship with other teams rising up to win the odd one here and there. If this happens the calls to split them up will be deafening and GAA will be forced to do something. That kind of dominance will kill any sport.

I think the first outcome is more likely in the medium term, I am very hopeful that Galway, Donegal, Kerry, Tyrone and Mayo will be better able for them very soon. There are too many variables to predict anything though because I believe we are on the cusp of fairly major changes to the championship and the introduction of pay for play is inevitable at this stage.

Jaden

gaffer91 wrote: »

Plenty of people have grasped the issue (i.e overfunding/ financial doping of Dublin at the expense of every other county) raised by the article and proposed meaningful solutions. But please enlighten us.

I don't agree with this. I think Dublin should ask for more funding, not less. I think that if the DCB request less funding, that they are not doing their job properly, and should be replaced. I would think the same applies to any CB, you may not agree.

But, let's assume this is true. Let us say that the GAA have overfunded the DCB, and that needs to change. One of the ways that can be redressed is by looking at Sponsorship funds.

gaffer91 wrote: »

As has been pointed out before, there's no reason sponsorship money couldn't be centrally pooled also, and not just benefit the one county which already has many other advantages.

I'll give a reason that this can't be done - there are no structures in place, or even proposed, that would allow this to happen. Each CB negotiates it's own County's sponsorship - all independent of one another. It would require a fundamental change in how Sponsorship is managed for this to happen. That requires a motion to congress, backing, planning and implementation.

Adding in my opinion, I don't think that motion would ever get passed, much less implemented correctly, but there may be merit in the attempt.

Wishing that sponsorship funds magically get redistributed is not a solution, it's a wish. A solution is when you take a desire and wrap planning and activity around it. Something lacking in this thread. I hope that you see the point I am trying to make.

The_Honeybadger

Jaden wrote: »

I don't agree with this. I think Dublin should ask for more funding, not less. I think that if the DCB request less funding, that they are not doing their job properly, and should be replaced. I would think the same applies to any CB, you may not agree.

But, let's assume this is true. Let us say that the GAA have overfunded the DCB, and that needs to change. One of the ways that can be redressed is by looking at Sponsorship funds.



I'll give a reason that this can't be done - there are no structures in place, or even proposed, that would allow this to happen. Each CB negotiates it's own County's sponsorship - all independent of one another. It would require a fundamental change in how Sponsorship is managed for this to happen. That requires a motion to congress, backing, planning and implementation.

Adding in my opinion, I don't think that motion would ever get passed, much less implemented correctly, but there may be merit in the attempt.

Wishing that sponsorship funds magically get redistributed is not a solution, it's a wish. A solution is when you take a desire and wrap planning and activity around it. Something lacking in this thread. I hope that you see the point I am trying to make.

The allocation model seems to broadly be what you got last year, plus or minus a couple of % depending.

I suggested earlier in the thread a full and independent desk review of all funding including direct GAA, provincial councils, ISC, commercial sponsorship and fundraising to try to grasp the issues in their totality. The figures are there it would really only require proper collation. From there you can set out plans and guidelines going forward. Most people arguing either way are cherry picking facts and figures to suit their narrative.

I agree you can’t pool sponsorship because among other reasons why on earth would Dublin or any other team try to get the best deal they can if they know it’s going to be taken off them.

Sonny678

Mr. Incognito wrote:

Cork was a great team in the 80s and late 70s and only for the best Kerry team of all time would have won a few all irelands.

Cork were not a great team in late 70s and early 80s. A team that wins 1 Munster title in 12 years r not a great team. The only time they won Munster in 1983 they were hammered by Dublin in an All Ireland semi final. A great team wins at least 2 All Ireland and usually two back to back. That Cork team didnt reach an All Ireland final.

That Cork team was a good team. In the top 4 or 5 teams in the country at the time. But to say they were a great team is not credible. Name 3 or 4 great players on that Cork team in late 70s or 80s. Not one of the Cork forwards at the time wud have got on the kerry team at time. Very few of those Cork players wud have got on the kerry team . Kerry always like to big up Cork. The idea that Cork can beat kerry at any time. It is the most one sided big rivalry in GAA. It is a myth of a rivalry. Only for late 80s and early 90s kerry have dominated Cork for 120 years . Kerry were dominate over Cork in 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 00s and this decade. Kerry v Cork is great occasion. Munster final was always a big match with great colour in killarney or Pairc Ui Chaoimh, but kerry always win.

This is the Cork team that won Munster in 83. How many great players are on this team
1 M Creedan 2 M Healy 3 k Kehily 4 J Evans 5 M Hannon 6 C Ryan 7 J Cerrigan 8 D Creedon 9 C Corrigan 10 T Murphy 11 E O Mahoney 12 D Barry 13 D Allen 14 J Allen 15 J Cleary.

How many great players on that Cork team?. Not one of those Cork players wud have got on the great kerry team. Dave Barry and Dinny Allen wud have got a place on kerry bench. kerry had some great players eg P O Se J O Se Pat Spillane Mikey Sheedy . Cork didnt any players of that quality. Thats why they won 1 Munster title in 12 years. Yes a good team in the top 4 or 5 teams in the country at the time. But the idea that Cork team was a great team is not credible.

The point Im making is not opinion or viewpoint.It is a fact. Dublin have dominated leinster since 1890s. Most teams in leinster havent beaten Dublin in 50 or 60 or 70 years eg Wexford Wicklow Carlow Louth longford. Other counties have 1 or 2 wins in 40 or 50 years eg Kildare Westmeath laois. This is not viewpoint this is a fact.

Dywer and Boylan are two of the greatest managers of all time. They r the two most sucessful managers ever. The only manager as sucessful is Jim Galvin. But even Jim Galvin would admit Boylan and Dwyer were greeter msnagers. Galvin has had huge underage sucess with 5 underage under 21 All Ireland title. Mesth 87 88 team had an underage medal between them . And yes Meath did win under 21 All Ireland and 2 minors in early 90s. But incredibly from hose 3 under age team only 4 players went onto win Sam with Meath seniors eg Trevor Giles Graham Geraghty Conor Martin and Enda McManus. Boylan turned junior club players and sometimes average club players into All.Ireland winners. Both Boylan and Dwyer were essential to their counties suvess.

Thats all the point Im making Dublin have always dominated leinster and Dwyer and Boylan.were essential to both coumties sucess..That is not a opinion these are accepted as facts.

gaffer91

@Jaden- dreadful response; confirms the initial thought that I am many others had i.e that you haven't a notion what you are talking about.

Jaden wrote: »

I don't agree with this. I think Dublin should ask for more funding, not less. I think that if the DCB request less funding, that they are not doing their job properly, and should be replaced. I would think the same applies to any CB, you may not agree.

You seem to be viewing things through the lens of DCB; every other poster was viewing it through the lens of central council/ a neutral observer. This should be immediately obvious from reading the posts.

Obviously no-one would dispute that county boards are going to act in their own best interests.

Jaden wrote: »

I'll give a reason that this can't be done - there are no structures in place, or even proposed, that would allow this to happen. Each CB negotiates it's own County's sponsorship - all independent of one another. It would require a fundamental change in how Sponsorship is managed for this to happen. That requires a motion to congress, backing, planning and implementation.

Adding in my opinion, I don't think that motion would ever get passed, much less implemented correctly, but there may be merit in the attempt.

There's no reason such a motion couldn't be proposed and passed. Given the benefits for many currently underfunded counties, I think it'd be more popular than you think.

I also hope you realise the absurdity of your post by the way- you initially say "this can't be done" and then, in the very next sentence, propose a way it can be done. Perhaps you meant it couldn't be done immediately? But again, no-one argued that.

Jaden wrote: »

Wishing that sponsorship funds magically get redistributed is not a solution, it's a wish. A solution is when you take a desire and wrap planning and activity around it. Something lacking in this thread. I hope that you see the point I am trying to make.

You acknowledge that such redistribution is possible, you just think it would be difficult to implement. I happen to disagree. We both agree, or seem to agree, that it couldn't happen overnight. That doesn't mean it's impossible.

So your post misinterpreted what people had been saying and contradicted itself. Your point is a very poor one- it appears you are the one who lacks understanding.

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I suggested earlier in the thread a full and independent desk review of all funding including direct GAA, provincial councils, ISC, commercial sponsorship and fundraising to try to grasp the issues in their totality. The figures are there it would really only require proper collation. From there you can set out plans and guidelines going forward. Most people arguing either way are cherry picking facts and figures to suit their narrative.

This would be a good idea.

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I agree you can’t pool sponsorship because among other reasons why on earth would Dublin or any other team try to get the best deal they can if they know it’s going to be taken off them.

It absolutely would be possible to pool sponsorships- it would require some changes but it would be possible.

The same motivations would not exist for Dublin post such a change, I agree. I doubt they'd give it away for free (or at least, that HQ would allow them to for an extended period if they attempted it as a petty retaliation). Even if the money flowing in was less, it would be a more equitable distribution and thus better for the game- I believe Dublin's dominance is the single biggest threat to Gaelic Football at the moment and anything that helps ameliorate this is a good thing.

nice_guy80

look at a county that has had relative success at underage for their size without a huge development money spend

eg Roscommon.
they reached something like 8 U21 finals in Connacht in a row and reached two All Ireland U21 finals (met the Dublin juggernaut on both occasions).
most of the Roscommon players on those teams are no longer playing county football and in fact a lot of them are no longer playing club football!
Why? they haven't got the opportunity to study/work/live near home and travelling long distances for games and training isn't feasible.

Roscommon have had a huge turnover of players in the last 5 years alone, as most young players cannot give the commitment needed.
The county is hugely economically disadvantaged as they cannot pull in huge team or individual sponsorships to help with team costs.

and that is a team that reached the last 8 last summer and is Division 1. if they are in that boat, how are the counties outside the top 10 teams meant to compete?

a

Perifect

Would Dublin have won so many Leinster and All Ireland championships without all this money? It has to be said that it would be very unlikely. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they definitely would not have won as many and more than likely it would have been a tiny fraction of what they have won. We need to look at the fairness of this all then. Effectively, Dublin won 6 All Ireland championships while being backed by state funds. We're not talking a small amount, huge sums of money from the state. Why was this allowed to happen? Someone posted an article earlier which said it was all done by Bertie Ahern, is this even legal? What if Enda Kenny gave Mayo free access to public funds when he was Taoiseach? When a Taoiseach from another county gets into power, can they just grant their county millions of euro? This is just really wrong, how can anyone stand over this?

Jaden

WUM Confirmed, off to the Ignore list with you.

Jaden

Perifect wrote: »

Would Dublin have won so many Leinster and All Ireland championships without all this money? It has to be said that it would be very unlikely. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they definitely would not have won as many and more than likely it would have been a tiny fraction of what they have won. We need to look at the fairness of this all then. Effectively, Dublin won 6 All Ireland championships while being backed by state funds. We're not talking a small amount, huge sums of money from the state. Why was this allowed to happen? Someone posted an article earlier which said it was all done by Bertie Ahern, is this even legal? What if Enda Kenny gave Mayo free access to public funds when he was Taoiseach? When a Taoiseach from another county gets into power, can they just grant their county millions of euro? This is just really wrong, how can anyone stand over this?

I guess we'll never know what could have happened, but I suspect opinion would be divided on the matter.

As for Enda: Relatively big grant for his own Cycling club?

It's not even on the same scale as Berties actions, but it's the same thing.

Bertie's actions are reprehensible, of that there is no doubt. But so is a tax exile using money he didn't pay in taxes to fund a county side to success.

Mr. Incognito

Jaden wrote: »

but it's the same thing.

€17 million = €20,000

Does not compute.

ToBeFrank123

Colm Parkinson's interview with the Director-General demonstrates how little interest the GAA have in changing the status quo.

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/193124-193124

Wooly: It was okay. I wouldn't go that far. The big elephant in the room here is that Dublin are hammering everybody. The Leinster championship is a waste of time.
TR: Do you think so?
W: Well Dublin are going for ten in a row. Dublin played Laois in a Leinster championship in 2006 and it was a full house. It was 40,000 last year. Dublin's dominance is turning people off and I think that's very obvious. Once Mayo were out last year people knew that no one was really going to challenge them. That's the reality. Now they're going for five in a row. The question I would have for you is there any sort of strategy in place for if Dublin go 10 in a row?
TR: No
W: There's not?
TR: Not really!

Things will never change at the top of the GAA.

Perifect

Jaden wrote: »

I guess we'll never know what could have happened, but I suspect opinion would be divided on the matter.

As for Enda: Relatively big grant for his own Cycling club?

It's not even on the same scale as Berties actions, but it's the same thing.

Bertie's actions are reprehensible, of that there is no doubt. But so is a tax exile using money he didn't pay in taxes to fund a county side to success.

Do you agree that we should be looking into the legalities of it then? Politicians with power shouldn't have any impact on a specific GAA county. This should not have been allowed and it should be prevented from happening in the future. The whole organisation has to be called into question over this affair. I still can't believe this was allowed to happen.

Jaden

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

€20,000
Does compute.

Selective snipping helps no-one.

Jaden

Perifect wrote: »

Do you agree that we should be looking into the legalities of it then? Politicians with power shouldn't have any impact on a specific GAA county. This should not have been allowed and it should be prevented from happening in the future. The whole organisation has to be called into question over this affair. I still can't believe this was allowed to happen.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment expressed. Politicians should never demonstrate any geographical bias in any facet of public service.

The probability of that ever coming to pass however, is approximately zero percent. Irish politics and the GAA have the same inherent weakness as regards their parochial natures. Not an easy problem to solve.

Perifect

Jaden wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment expressed. Politicians should never demonstrate any geographical bias in any facet of public service.

The probability of that ever coming to pass however, is approximately zero percent. Irish politics and the GAA have the same inherent weakness as regards their parochial natures. Not an easy problem to solve.

Ok so we're all agreed that is was wrong for Bertie Ahern to give public funds to Dublin. What should be done about it? Why is it still allowed to continue?

ToBeFrank123

I'm guessing its because Bertie committed 100 million at least to the rebuilding of Croke Park and the GAA felt duty bound to help his beloved Dublin GAA for all eternity. Something like that. Nice that Dublin effectively got a free stadium and didn't have to take on huge debts like other counties.

clint_silver

If I may

5 years ago, dublins membership was at about 38000, cork the next biggest at about 33,000.

Lets say 40k and 35k now for maths

How does this equate to membership versus county population. Cork pop is about 500,000, dublin is now approaching 2million.

Cork membership to pop = about 7%
Dublin membership to pop = about 2%

If you were in the GAA and had a sum of money to grow the game, where would you invest? Well if 7% is the highest right now, could they get Dublin membership up to that, 5% more members in Dublin is 100,000 more members. Well that seems the right way to go based on those figures.

Take any county you want and try get them up to 7%, how much money do you need?

only way is schools, train the mentors, coach the coaches, get the kids games. Make them happy, make them make the decision about what sport they want to play.

If you dont, rugby and soccer will.

Perifect

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm guessing its because Bertie committed 100 million at least to the rebuilding of Croke Park and the GAA felt duty bound to help his beloved Dublin GAA for all eternity. Something like that. Nice that Dublin effectively got a free stadium and didn't have to take on huge debts like other counties.

I really think there should be an investigation into the whole affair. It's a scandal.

Perifect

clint_silver wrote: »

If I may

5 years ago, dublins membership was at about 38000, cork the next biggest at about 33,000.

Lets say 40k and 35k now for maths

How does this equate to membership versus county population. Cork pop is about 500,000, dublin is now approaching 2million.

Cork membership to pop = about 7%
Dublin membership to pop = about 2%

If you were in the GAA and had a sum of money to grow the game, where would you invest? Well if 7% is the highest right now, could they get Dublin membership up to that, 5% more members in Dublin is 100,000 more members. Well that seems the right way to go based on those figures.

Take any county you want and try get them up to 7%, how much money do you need?

only way is schools, train the mentors, coach the coaches, get the kids games. Make them happy, make them make the decision about what sport they want to play.

If you dont, rugby and soccer will.

Why not invest in every county equally?

ToBeFrank123

clint_silver wrote: »

If I may

5 years ago, dublins membership was at about 38000, cork the next biggest at about 33,000.

Lets say 40k and 35k now for maths

How does this equate to membership versus county population. Cork pop is about 500,000, dublin is now approaching 2million.

Cork membership to pop = about 7%
Dublin membership to pop = about 2%

If you were in the GAA and had a sum of money to grow the game, where would you invest? Well if 7% is the highest right now, could they get Dublin membership up to that, 5% more members in Dublin is 100,000 more members. Well that seems the right way to go based on those figures.

Take any county you want and try get them up to 7%, how much money do you need?

only way is schools, train the mentors, coach the coaches, get the kids games. Make them happy, make them make the decision about what sport they want to play.

If you dont, rugby and soccer will.

I'm sure the GAA had good intentions to grow the GAA in Dublin. Problem is they ruined the Leinster championship and are in the process of doing the same with the AI.

So while growing the game in Dublin, they have managed to shrink the popularity of the game elsewhere. Youngsters in other counties are turning en masse to other sports such as rugby and soccer. This is where they see their senior sporting careers. Examples of Roscommon are common across the country, good players not committing to the senior team due to having to travel long distances to training with very little prospect of reward. The less likely players think they will win an AI, the less they will commit to it. So many players in Cork, Meath and other former strongholds now don't bother. In Cork, dual players will generally go with the hurlers.

Its practically unheard of for a Dublin footballer to turn down an offer to join up with the senior county team. Its very common in other counties however, with some lesser counties having to go without 9 or 10 talented squad players who decide to opt out, players they badly need, particularly at the business end of the championship.

It would be nice if the GAA took into consideration the health of the sport across all 32 counties instead of being obsessed with the health of it in Dublin.

And one of the reasons hurling is so healthy now is because of dual players abandoning football, and youngsters opting for hurling over football.