Good article detailing Dublin's unfair funding advantage

Clareman

threeball wrote: »

Because the GAA would go broke funding every county to the same level they fund Dublin. The spend per player should be the same in every county. County teams should be separate, allocated a certain fund each year and made to stay within it. Once you progress outside your province additional funds would be available but the bulk of spending would be early in the year.

I know that if this was to be rolled out in Clare that it'd be the usual lackies that would get the jobs and there'd be backhanders all over the place and it wouldn't actually be implemented.

The_Honeybadger

threeball wrote: »

Dublin do it just as much if not more. Theres lads coming into the Dublin team at 20years old with conditioning not seen by most players until they have 3years IC behind them. This doesn't happen by accident or because some lad is dedicated and goes to the gym. It requires a team and an environment to produce that end product.

Absolutely, yet they want you to believe all the money gets spent coaching disadvantaged kids. It’s utter claptrap.

Clareman

What I've taken from this discussion is that Dublin have gotten a massive amount of money to develop GAA in Dublin, becuase this has worked they shouldn't be getting this money again.

Perifect

I still can't get my head around this. Let's just try to add this all up. According to the article in the first post, it's 18 million from 2007 to 2018. They have been getting money since 2005 so it's at least 20 million from then? Someone said that this doesn't include another 1 million they get from the sports council, is this true? Surely it can't be another million on top of 20 million they got already? That would be 33 million. None of this includes all their sponsorship money. How much is that? AIG deal was 4 million, wasn't it? This is just astronomical money. It's crazy. How can this be justified? Dublin have spent 30+ million since 2005 while all the other counties have spent less than 2 million.

Happyilylost

gaffer91 wrote:

@Happyilylost- dreadful post and very poor analysis.

I've gone through it all before. Dig up the old thread and read through all the facts figures and data. Plenty is provided. I'm not posting it all again. The funding provided does not go to the Dublin senior footballers. They have jobs. Same as the rest. What's the difference between Cluxton the school teacher and Cillian O Connor the school teacher? The backroom teams for most top teams are around the same. And it's been shown that Dublin don't spend more money on their senior teams in comparison to other senior teams. So where's the advantage? Money going to some lad to go out and train 5 year olds in inner city Dublin? The have a massive population. That is not always an advantage. The socio economics of large urban areas have plenty of negatives. The money is needed for Dublin. For the moment I see no ill affect to it. Plenty of teams have been as successful as this Dublin team. I don't believe will last forever.

The_Honeybadger

Clareman wrote: »

What I've taken from this discussion is that Dublin have gotten a massive amount of money to develop GAA in Dublin, becuase this has worked they shouldn't be getting this money again.

Dubs will always get the most funding because of the numbers they have. All anybody wants is fairness. A proper independent review of the distribution of funding (not commissioned by the GAA where they set the TOR and whitewash the issue) is probably in order given the sums now involved.

Smaller counties are losing hope entirely and cannot get their best players to commit to the county panel. The ESRI did a report on this recently and found that there is a 30 hr per week commitment required now and players are walking away because of this but also mainly because they have no chance of success. This issue is linked to our outdated championship structure.

I think we are about to undergo a lot of change in the way the GAA is played and administered over the next 10-15 years so it’s important that we get it right.

Coming back to Dublin if their current stranglehold on the championship continues the calls to split them up will get louder and will carry more weight. Attendances are already collapsing and hitting the GAA in the pocket, another five years of Dublin dominance would utterly kill neutral interest in the sport.

Interesting times ahead. It should be said that Dublin have done nothing wrong at all and are a remarkable team. It’s not their fault that they are blessed with the privileges that they have but that doesn’t mean it should continue unchallenged either.

Perifect

Happyilylost wrote: »

I've gone through it all before. Dig up the old thread and read through all the facts figures and data. Plenty is provided. I'm not posting it all again. The funding provided does not go to the Dublin senior footballers. They have jobs. Same as the rest. What's the difference between Cluxton the school teacher and Cillian O Connor the school teacher? The backroom teams for most top teams are around the same. And it's been shown that Dublin don't spend more money on their senior teams in comparison to other senior teams. So where's the advantage? Money going to some lad to go out and train 5 year olds in inner city Dublin? The have a massive population. That is not always an advantage. The socio economics of large urban areas have plenty of negatives. The money is needed for Dublin. For the moment I see no ill affect to it. Plenty of teams have been as successful as this Dublin team. I don't believe will last forever.

We're talking about 30-40 million here! Where has that money been spent?

Perifect

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Dubs will always get the most funding because of the numbers they have. All anybody wants is fairness. A proper independent review of the distribution of funding (not commissioned by the GAA where they set the TOR and whitewash the issue) is probably in order given the sums now involved.

Smaller counties are losing hope entirely and cannot get their best players to commit to the county panel. The ESRI did a report on this recently and found that there is a 30 hr per week commitment required now and players are walking away because of this but also mainly because they have no chance of success. This issue is linked to our outdated championship structure.

I think we are about to undergo a lot of change in the way the GAA is played and administered over the next 10-15 years so it’s important that we get it right.

Coming back to Dublin if their current stranglehold on the championship continues the calls to split them up will get louder and will carry more weight. Attendances are already collapsing and hitting the GAA in the pocket, another five years of Dublin dominance would utterly kill neutral interest in the sport.

Interesting times ahead. It should be said that Dublin have done nothing wrong at all and are a remarkable team. It’s not their fault that they are blessed with the privileges that they have but that doesn’t mean it should continue unchallenged either.

No one likes tribunals but I think there needs to be one for this. It's an absolute scandal. How was this allowed happen? I think it's safe to say that Dublin would not be on the way to 5 in a row without all this money. They possibly wouldn't have won any!

The_Honeybadger

Happyilylost wrote: »

I've gone through it all before. Dig up the old thread and read through all the facts figures and data. Plenty is provided. I'm not posting it all again. The funding provided does not go to the Dublin senior footballers. They have jobs. Same as the rest. What's the difference between Cluxton the school teacher and Cillian O Connor the school teacher? The backroom teams for most top teams are around the same. And it's been shown that Dublin don't spend more money on their senior teams in comparison to other senior teams. So where's the advantage? Money going to some lad to go out and train 5 year olds in inner city Dublin? The have a massive population. That is not always an advantage. The socio economics of large urban areas have plenty of negatives. The money is needed for Dublin. For the moment I see no ill affect to it. Plenty of teams have been as successful as this Dublin team. I don't believe will last forever.

Problem is I have yet to see one single objective and all encompassing review of funding in the GAA. That’s what I mean in my post above when I said a proper independent report is required. There is so much misinformation and deliberately misleading narrative out there that nobody can really say anything for sure.

There are multiple stakeholders like GAA HQ, Provincial Councils and ISC. Why can’t funding be streamlined to make it clear? At least if you had that a proper informed debate could ensue.

A plan is urgently needed for weaker counties unless we just want an elite sport with a couple of counties playing each other in Croke Park each year.

Clareman

Every county board has to submit a set of audited accounts, whether these are valid accounts or not I don't know but there is a set of accounts submitted.

gaffer91

@Sonny678-

Your lengthy post has a few errors. Meath reached All- Ireland semi-finals in 2007 and 2009 for one. Most importantly though, you think that because Kildare and Meath are having some small success in underage teams, this is good news. Is this how far the bar has fallen? As you noted, Meath used to be competing for All-Irelands every decade. Both teams, and others, used to be much more competitive in Leinster competitions year in, year out.

Clareman wrote: »

Instead of penalising Dublin for a job well done why get the model that they have (which is clearly working) and give it to every other county that wants it?

You've basically come around to concluding that funding should be equalized. This is what I and others have been arguing all along.

Happyilylost wrote: »

I've gone through it all before. Dig up the old thread and read through all the facts figures and data. Plenty is provided. I'm not posting it all again. The funding provided does not go to the Dublin senior footballers. They have jobs. Same as the rest. What's the difference between Cluxton the school teacher and Cillian O Connor the school teacher? The backroom teams for most top teams are around the same. And it's been shown that Dublin don't spend more money on their senior teams in comparison to other senior teams. So where's the advantage? Money going to some lad to go out and train 5 year olds in inner city Dublin? The have a massive population. That is not always an advantage. The socio economics of large urban areas have plenty of negatives. The money is needed for Dublin. For the moment I see no ill affect to it. Plenty of teams have been as successful as this Dublin team. I don't believe will last forever.

I've no intention of going back and reading your old posts- if they're anything like the ones in this thread they'll be full of facile analysis and errors.

The point is that Dublin are over- funded relative to other teams, and have been for some years now. You can try and spin this any way you want but the figures are there for everyone to see. Don't forget they get millions in funding from other sources too. And their expenditure should be lower for things like mileage which eats up budgets of smaller counties.

The "ill-effect" that you somehow fail to see is that Gaelic Football is being ruined by Dublin dominance. Neutrals are losing interest and when it goes, it will never return. And the root issue with this dominance is that it has been acquired from a position of strength on a non-level playing field.

Happyilylost

gaffer91 wrote:

The "ill-effect" that you somehow fail to see is that Gaelic Football is being ruined by Dublin dominance. Neutrals are losing interest and when it goes, it will never return. And the root issue with this dominance is that it has been acquired from a position of strength on a non-level playing field.

Why wasn't something done about Kilkennys dominance. People mention the detrimental effect Dublin has on the Leinster province. What about the effect Kilkenny had on Leinster? Or can we pick and choose teams to suit our argument?

gaffer91

Happyilylost wrote: »

Why wasn't something done about Kilkennys dominance. People mention the detrimental effect Dublin has on the Leinster province. What about the effect Kilkenny had on Leinster? Or can we pick and choose teams to suit our argument?

I think I can actually predict what arguments the Dubs in favour of continuing the current unfair state of affairs are going to come up with.

"Other teams need to step up"

"No-one was complaining between 1983 and 2011".

This time you've gone for the "what about Kilkenny" argument. Already addressed in this thread, and many others besides. I suggest having a read. Long story short is that Kilkenny's dominance was not attributable to any unfair advantages. Dublin's dominance was and is. The many differences are obvious. Very poor analysis again on your part.

Perifect

DoctaDee wrote: »

Once again people are choosing to ignore the bigger picture and are fixated on the central council grant for Dublin.

I'll leave you with this - in 2017 all the other counties in Leinster received an additional 5.3 million in games development from the Leinster council, of which 2.3 million was spent on GPO's, . Dublin with 1.3 million has 78 GPO's, the rest of Leinster with approx 1.4 million has 79 GPO's.

Make of it what you will but shine your light a little brighter on the complete issue instead of taking the likes of McKenna as the Bible on these matters

I've been asking loads of questions but not getting many answers so I decided to search for a few things myself. I searched for Leinster council accounts and it turns out that this post above is a complete spoof!! There is a total of 5.3 million for games development but that includes money for cúl camps, academies, primary schools, secondary schools, third level colleges, this is for all Leinster is it not? Including Dublin? Then the next part I'm going to tell you is crazy, you won't believe me. Also included in this section of the Leinster council accounts is something they call "Dublin coaching project"!!!!!!
I'm not joking, you can search the Leinster council accounts. In fact, it has all it's accounts since 2002 published. You can go through them and see that this "Dublin coaching project" has been taking a fair wack out of the games development fund since 2006! I'm assuming this is on top of the 20 million? This scandal just goes deeper.

ToBeFrank123

Happyilylost wrote: »

I've gone through it all before. Dig up the old thread and read through all the facts figures and data. Plenty is provided. I'm not posting it all again. The funding provided does not go to the Dublin senior footballers. They have jobs. Same as the rest. What's the difference between Cluxton the school teacher and Cillian O Connor the school teacher? The backroom teams for most top teams are around the same. And it's been shown that Dublin don't spend more money on their senior teams in comparison to other senior teams. So where's the advantage? Money going to some lad to go out and train 5 year olds in inner city Dublin? The have a massive population. That is not always an advantage. The socio economics of large urban areas have plenty of negatives. The money is needed for Dublin. For the moment I see no ill affect to it. Plenty of teams have been as successful as this Dublin team. I don't believe will last forever.

Again, missing the point. Its the critical mass of players and coaches Dublin benefit from, an unending reserve they can call from. So much so they can afford to do without players like Connolly or McCaffrey (year away) and it makes little difference, they still win. Teams can push them close such as Mayo but Dublin always have a bench full of stars who'd be starters in other counties. By senior level they don't even have to spend that much money on the team and they certainly don't have to pay the kinds of mileage money other counties do. In every important facet of the game, Dublin have an advantage, usually an unfair one.

Sonny678

gaffer91 wrote:

Your lengthy post has a few errors. Meath reached All- Ireland semi-finals in 2007 and 2009 for one. Most importantly though, you think that because Kildare and Meath are having some small success in underage teams, this is good news. Is this how far the bar has fallen? As you noted, Meath used to be competing for All-Irelands every decade. Both teams, and others, used to be much more competitive in Leinster competitions year in, year out.

Sorry about that ur right . Meath did reach semi finals in 07 and 09. So thats 3 times leinster teams other then Dublin have reached the All Ireland semi final in last 18 years. Since 2001 no leinster team other then Dublin has reached All Ireland senior final , 2003 since leinster team other then Dublin has won a minor All Ireland title.

I dont think Meath or kildare are having small underage sucess. kildare won their first All Ireland in fifty years and the first underage title for a leinster team other then Dublin for 16 years. Thats not small sucess. 4 counties have won All Ireland in leinster at under 20/21 in last 30 years. Every single of these counties had senior sucess afterwards. Meath won Under 21 All Ireland in 1993 , they won 2 senior All Irelands in 96 and 99 afterwards . laois won Under 21 All Ireland in late 90s , they won senior leinster in 2003 , their first leinster in 50 years afterwards . Westmeath won under 21 All Ireland title in 99 , in 2004 they won their first ever leinster senior title afterwards . Since 2000 Dublin have won 5 under 21 All Irelands and 6 senior All Irelands. Every team in leinster that has had sucess at under 20/21 age grade have followed this up with senior sucess.

Kildare huge sucess at under 20 last year should lead to senior sucess. I believe this is best talent kildare have produced and good enough to repeat sucess of 98 and 2000. I can see kildare winning leinster title 2 to 3 years. I know I am in the minority here saying that. Winning Under 20 All Ireland is huge sucess and should not be sniffed as it is only kildares second All Ireland sucess at any grade in 90 years .

Meath are behind kildare and Dublin at underage. But they have caught up and overtaking both and minor. And should make a bigger impact at under 20 in next few years. Meath had no underage sucess for near 10 years other then 2012 minor All Ireland finalist. Players coming through were not good enough and had bad defeats and bad experiences at underage for Meath. Bad defeats at senior to Dublin in 2014 Westmeath in 2015 kildare in 2017 and longford in 2018 were just a repeat of results all those counties had over Meath at minor and under 21. Meath r improving at underage. Players like Daragh Campion who has been excellent this spring are the beginning of influx of new talented young Meath footballers who have tasted underage sucess v Dublin. The last time that happened for Meath was 90s. Meath were not bringing on many under 21 players in recent years to senior team. This year there has been 5. And I expect to see 4 or 5 next year and the year after to step up to senior for Meath. That is the first time we have saw something like this from Meath in 15 years at least.

Maybe kildare and Meath will stop having sucess at underage and even if they do , maybe they wouldnt have senior sucess. But for me if you look at Clare Galway and limerick hurling sucess was all . built in sucess at underage . Dublins sucess at senior was built on underage sucess at under 21. There has been evidence in past that sucess at underage can lead to senior sucess. A few examples below

1 Meath 96 99 All Ireland senior wins built on 93 under 21 and 90 and 92 minor sucess
2 Donegal 1992 All-Ireland senior sucess was built on sucessful under 21 All Ireland team.
3 Kerry 1997 All Ireland senior suces was built on sucessful 1995 under 21 All Ireland winning team.
4 Galway 1998 All Ireland senior sucess was built on 1994 All Ireland minor finalist.
5 Tyrone 2003 2005 2008 All Ireland sucess was built on minor and under 21 All Ireland winning teams
6 Donegal 2012 All Ireland winning team was built on sucess of under 21 All Ireland finalist.

Time will tell if things will change in leinster.

Sonny678

gaffer91 wrote:

Your lengthy post has a few errors. Meath reached All- Ireland semi-finals in 2007 and 2009 for one. Most importantly though, you think that because Kildare and Meath are having some small success in underage teams, this is good news. Is this how far the bar has fallen? As you noted, Meath used to be competing for All-Irelands every decade. Both teams, and others, used to be much more competitive in Leinster competitions year in, year out.

When was the leinster championship competitive. With the exception of 2 periods the leinster championship has always been very uncompetitive. The golden age of leinster championship was 40s and 50s when Dublin Meath kildare Laois Louth Carlow and Wexford won leinster titles. The second golden age of leinster football was fron 95 to 04 when Meath Dublin kildare Offaly Laois and Westmeath won leinster titles. For the rest of the history of leinster football 100 years or so has been uncompetitive and Dublin have dominated leinster football.since the 1890s.

Yes there is difference in this decade that you have a lack of division 1 teams in the provience. Every decade since 20s u had 3 top division 1 teams in the provience. But Dublin have had dominance in the provience since 1890s. Only for 5 great Meath teams ( 40s 50s 60s 80s 90s ) , 2 great Offaly teams ( 70s 80s) , two great kildare teams ( 20s 90s), one great louth team ( 57 ) and one great Wexford team ( 14 to 18 and couple of brillant Westmeath longford laois teams , Dublin would have dominated the provience more.

Only the county in leinster that has any sort of good record v Dublin is Meath nearly with 40 victories in league and championship over Dublin. Dublin have been and always been the team to beat in leinster.

Kildare have won 3 leinster titles in 65 years and have beaten Dublin twice in 45 years.
Offaly have won 1 leinster title in 35 years and havent beaten Dublin in 35 years
Laois have won 1 leinster title in 60 years and have beaten Dublin twice in 50 years and 5 times in their history
Louth havent won leinster title in 70 years and havent beaten Dublin in 45 years.
Wicklow have never won leinster title and havent beaten Dublin in 70 years. Wexford havent won leinster title or beaten Dublin in 70 years
Westmeath have won 1 leinster title ever and have beaten Dublin twice in 70 years
Longford havent won leinster title or beaten Dublin in 50 years.

Dublin could have dominated the 70s 80s 90s and 00s in leinster just like they did now only for two men Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer . 2005 and 2011 were great years for Dublin football for Dublin great nemesis Boylan and Dywer retired from leinster football ,( Boylan in 2005 and Dwyer in 2011, but Dwyer left 2004 laois his last sucess in leinster with a title). After 2005 Dublin won 12 out of 13 leinster titles. Before 2005 with Boylan and Dwyer managing teams in the provience Dublin won from 1986 to 2004 in 18 years, Dublin won 6 leinater titles in 18 years. Dublin in 80s and 90s had players the calibre of John O leary Mick Kennedy Gerry Hargan Paul Curran Kieth Barr Eamon Heery Brian Stynes Brian Mullins Tommy Drumm Barney Rock Joe McNally Charlie Redmond Jason Sherlock Jim Galvin Dessie Anto O Toole Farrell. They cud have dominated leinster. But Boylan and Dwyer built teams that cud beat Dublin.

If Boylan never managed Meath , Meath wud never have won an All Ireland in 80s or 90s or probaly not even leinster title. If u say they wud name the manager , the top class manager in Meath that cud have done what Boylan did. There was none. If Dwyer didnt go to kildare or laois and Paudi to Westmeath none of these counties would have won leinster. If u think they would name the top class manager in kildare Laois or Westmeath that could have done what Dywer did. People don't realise how successful Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer were v Dublin.

Jimmy McGuiness and James Horan have beaten Dublin once in championship. Mickey Harte has beaten Dublin twice or three times in championship. Sean Boylan defeated Dublin 8 times and 4 draws in the championship in 15 years. Dwyer defeated Dublin 3 times and 2 draw in leinster championship and had 5 victories over Dublin with kerry.
In total Sean Boylan defeated 8 times and 4 draws in the championship and Mick Dywer defeated Dublin in 30 years 8 times and 2 draws in the championship. This means in 30 years between them Boylan and Dywer defeated Dublin 16 times and had 6 draws in the championship v the Dubs. The closet other manager wud be Micky Harte on 2 or 3. The closet in leinster would be Eugene McGee on 2 victories over Dublin.

Look at this way Dublin in last 45 years have been beaten 16 times in the leinster championship. 11 of the 16 defeats Dublin suffered in leinster championship were teams managed by Boylan and Dywer ( 8 victories for Boylan 3 for Dywer). The only other managers to defeat Dublin in leinster in last 45 years were Eugene McGee twice ( Offaly 1981 1982) , Paudi O Se once ( Westmeath 2004 ) Eamon O Brien once ( Meath 2010 ) and whoever was managing laois in 1981 when Laois defeated Dublin.

So in 45 years since Heffernans Dublin revolution in 1974 , 80 per cent plus of the defeats in leinster championship were at the hands of Boylan and Dywer teams. And with 16 victories over Dublin between Boylan and Dywer around under 30% of the defeats Dublin have suffered in All Ireland championship in last 45 years were by teams managed by Dywer and Boylan. ( If my maths is right there I am open correction with last stat).

If Micko was never made kerry manager in 1975 Dublin would have 5 or 6 in a row All Ireland between 1974 to 79. Who wud have achieved what Micko did with kerry. If Micko left in 83 Dublin wud have won in 84 and 85. Micko Dywer cost Dublin 4 or 5 All Irelands. If Sean Boylan left Meath in 1985 Dublin would have won every leinster from 1984 to 1996. If Dwyer never went to kildare or laois and Boylan left Meath in 85 (which he decided to do only for players to convince him to stay). Dublin would have won every leinster titile from 1974 to the present other then between 1980 to 82. Dublin would have won 42 of the last 45 leinster titles. Dublin would have been winning 25 leinster titles in a row.

If u think they wouldnt. Please give the name of top class Meath manager in 80s and 90s who could have copied Boylan sucess. Give the name of the manager in kildare or laois that would have copied Dywer sucess. Maybe Meath might have won 1 or 2 leinster titles without Boylan but definitely not 8. kildare or laois wouldn't have won leinster without Boylan or Dywer. If was Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer never managed , Dublin would have won 6 or 7 or 8 more All Irelands eg 1975 78 79 84 85 86 87 91 etc. Dublin would be ahead of kerry in mid 30s of All Ireland sucess. Boylan and Dywer cost Dublin 11 or 12 leinster titles eg 1986 87 88 90 91 96 97 98 99 00 01 03.

So when u talk about Dublin dominating leinster u must mention, they have always dominated leinster and only for two greatest managers in history of gaelic football they wud have had huge sucess in 70s 80s and 90s. 2005 20011 were great years for Dublin football not because the blue wave report not because they started their first of 12 titles in 13 years not because Cluxton began to become best goalie in Ireland not beause Dublin won their first All Ireland in 16 years. 2005 and 2011 were great years for Dublin football coz Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer retired from leinster football.

Sheep breeder

All this talk of funding for Dublin is never going to stop when they are winning. Dublin is a well run county board for the clubs, in other counties it is not about county team it is all about the official and the big clubs wanting everything for themselves. When it comes to selecting development squads it is all about certain clubs players have to be selected and not about ability. Board officials are fixing games to suit their own clubs chances of winning.
Example of this, two year ago a county minors went to play a challenge game on the way home stopped off for food of tea and sandwiches for the young lads and the county board and management went in for carvery dinner.( what does that say to young fellas)
A senior club had a player getting married on a Saturday with a lot of team in attendance and were fixed to play championship league on a that evening and the players had to leave the wedding to play a match and the county board would not play the game on a Friday evening.
Other sports look after young players, take rugby as an example they know when they are playing and the referees are fair, and young fellas in ever club are coached evenly and fair.
In the gaa the county coaches only attend the important clubs and schools not every club.

thegills

Too lazy to read through 12 pages but the initial post seemed to say that Dublin dominance is ruining the game. All evidence points against this. Kilkenny dominated hurling for longer and the game is now better than ever.

elefant

thegills wrote: »

Too lazy to read through 12 pages but the initial post seemed to say that Dublin dominance is ruining the game. All evidence points against this. Kilkenny dominated hurling for longer and the game is now better than ever.

There's no end in sight with Dublin. That's what the evidence points to, and why people are concerned.

They have a brilliant group of players, combined with an ever-growing gigantic playing pool, massive funding and all big games at home. Kilkenny only had one of these during their period of dominance.

ClanofLams

Sonny678 wrote: »

When was the leinster championship competitive. With the exception of 2 periods the leinster championship has always been very uncompetitive. The golden age of leinster championship was 40s and 50s when Dublin Meath kildare Laois Louth Carlow and Wexford won leinster titles. The second golden age of leinster football was fron 95 to 04 when Meath Dublin kildare Offaly Laois and Westmeath won leinster titles. For the rest of the history of leinster football 100 years or so has been uncompetitive and Dublin have dominated leinster football.since the 1890s.

Yes there is difference in this decade that you have a lack of division 1 teams in the provience. Every decade since 20s u had 3 top division 1 teams in the provience. But Dublin have had dominance in the provience since 1890s. Only for 5 great Meath teams ( 40s 50s 60s 80s 90s ) , 2 great Offaly teams ( 70s 80s) , two great kildare teams ( 20s 90s), one great louth team ( 57 ) and one great Wexford team ( 14 to 18 and couple of brillant Westmeath longford laois teams , Dublin would have dominated the provience more.

Only the county in leinster that has any sort of good record v Dublin is Meath nearly with 40 victories in league and championship over Dublin. Dublin have been and always been the team to beat in leinster.

Kildare have won 3 leinster titles in 65 years and have beaten Dublin twice in 45 years.
Offaly have won 1 leinster title in 35 years and havent beaten Dublin in 35 years
Laois have won 1 leinster title in 60 years and have beaten Dublin twice in 50 years and 5 times in their history
Louth havent won leinster title in 70 years and havent beaten Dublin in 45 years.
Wicklow have never won leinster title and havent beaten Dublin in 70 years. Wexford havent won leinster title or beaten Dublin in 70 years
Westmeath have won 1 leinster title ever and have beaten Dublin twice in 70 years
Longford havent won leinster title or beaten Dublin in 50 years.

Dublin could have dominated the 70s 80s 90s and 00s in leinster just like they did now only for two men Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer . 2005 and 2011 were great years for Dublin football for Dublin great nemesis Boylan and Dywer retired from leinster football ,( Boylan in 2005 and Dwyer in 2011, but Dwyer left 2004 laois his last sucess in leinster with a title). After 2005 Dublin won 12 out of 13 leinster titles. Before 2005 with Boylan and Dwyer managing teams in the provience Dublin won from 1986 to 2004 in 18 years, Dublin won 6 leinater titles in 18 years. Dublin in 80s and 90s had players the calibre of John O leary Mick Kennedy Gerry Hargan Paul Curran Kieth Barr Eamon Heery Brian Stynes Brian Mullins Tommy Drumm Barney Rock Joe McNally Charlie Redmond Jason Sherlock Jim Galvin Dessie Anto O Toole Farrell. They cud have dominated leinster. But Boylan and Dwyer built teams that cud beat Dublin.

If Boylan never managed Meath , Meath wud never have won an All Ireland in 80s or 90s or probaly not even leinster title. If u say they wud name the manager , the top class manager in Meath that cud have done what Boylan did. There was none. If Dwyer didnt go to kildare or laois and Paudi to Westmeath none of these counties would have won leinster. If u think they would name the top class manager in kildare Laois or Westmeath that could have done what Dywer did. People don't realise how successful Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer were v Dublin.

Jimmy McGuiness and James Horan have beaten Dublin once in championship. Mickey Harte has beaten Dublin twice or three times in championship. Sean Boylan defeated Dublin 8 times and 4 draws in the championship in 15 years. Dwyer defeated Dublin 3 times and 2 draw in leinster championship and had 5 victories over Dublin with kerry.
In total Sean Boylan defeated 8 times and 4 draws in the championship and Mick Dywer defeated Dublin in 30 years 8 times and 2 draws in the championship. This means in 30 years between them Boylan and Dywer defeated Dublin 16 times and had 6 draws in the championship v the Dubs. The closet other manager wud be Micky Harte on 2 or 3. The closet in leinster would be Eugene McGee on 2 victories over Dublin.

Look at this way Dublin in last 45 years have been beaten 16 times in the leinster championship. 11 of the 16 defeats Dublin suffered in leinster championship were teams managed by Boylan and Dywer ( 8 victories for Boylan 3 for Dywer). The only other managers to defeat Dublin in leinster in last 45 years were Eugene McGee twice ( Offaly 1981 1982) , Paudi O Se once ( Westmeath 2004 ) Eamon O Brien once ( Meath 2010 ) and whoever was managing laois in 1981 when Laois defeated Dublin.

So in 45 years since Heffernans Dublin revolution in 1974 , 80 per cent plus of the defeats in leinster championship were at the hands of Boylan and Dywer teams. And with 16 victories over Dublin between Boylan and Dywer around under 30% of the defeats Dublin have suffered in All Ireland championship in last 45 years were by teams managed by Dywer and Boylan. ( If my maths is right there I am open correction with last stat).

If Micko was never made kerry manager in 1975 Dublin would have 5 or 6 in a row All Ireland between 1974 to 79. Who wud have achieved what Micko did with kerry. If Micko left in 83 Dublin wud have won in 84 and 85. Micko Dywer cost Dublin 4 or 5 All Irelands. If Sean Boylan left Meath in 1985 Dublin would have won every leinster from 1984 to 1996. If Dwyer never went to kildare or laois and Boylan left Meath in 85 (which he decided to do only for players to convince him to stay). Dublin would have won every leinster titile from 1974 to the present other then between 1980 to 82. Dublin would have won 42 of the last 45 leinster titles. Dublin would have been winning 25 leinster titles in a row.

If u think they wouldnt. Please give the name of top class Meath manager in 80s and 90s who could have copied Boylan sucess. Give the name of the manager in kildare or laois that would have copied Dywer sucess. Maybe Meath might have won 1 or 2 leinster titles without Boylan but definitely not 8. kildare or laois wouldn't have won leinster without Boylan or Dywer. If was Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer never managed , Dublin would have won 6 or 7 or 8 more All Irelands eg 1975 78 79 84 85 86 87 91 etc. Dublin would be ahead of kerry in mid 30s of All Ireland sucess. Boylan and Dywer cost Dublin 11 or 12 leinster titles eg 1986 87 88 90 91 96 97 98 99 00 01 03.

So when u talk about Dublin dominating leinster u must mention, they have always dominated leinster and only for two greatest managers in history of gaelic football they wud have had huge sucess in 70s 80s and 90s. 2005 20011 were great years for Dublin football not because the blue wave report not because they started their first of 12 titles in 13 years not because Cluxton began to become best goalie in Ireland not beause Dublin won their first All Ireland in 16 years. 2005 and 2011 were great years for Dublin football coz Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer retired from leinster football.

This is all a bit simplistic, giving O’Dwyer and Borlan sole credit for their teams achievements. Two great managers but fortunate to work with great teams.

The Kerry team that won four in a row best Dublin by seventeen points in 78 and eleven points in 79. Automatically assigning Dublin those all Ireland’s in the absence of O’Dwyer is daft.

Meath had serious footballers too, suggesting they wouldn’t have won a Leinster title without Sean Boylan is crazy.

Happyilylost

gaffer91 wrote:

I think I can actually predict what arguments the Dubs in favour of continuing the current unfair state of affairs are going to come up with.

I'm from Galway. I most definitely have no allegiance to Dublin. I train kids. I understand what the money given to Dublin is being used for. You can say none of my arguments stack up. Fair enough. I couldn't care less. I haven't seen much in the way of facts from any of your posts either.

So I'll ask a few questions. Do you not find it strange with all the money pumped into Dublin Gaa they are not dominating underage in any sense? Surely this is where it should be evident at this stage?

Why are the Dublin hurlers not making any inroads into winning titles? Other than a golden couple of years (much like the current Dublin team) they have achieved very little.

Teams go through golden generations. People think they never end. Ask Kilkenny, Kerry, Man Utd fans do they end. They do.

nice_guy80

Happyilylost wrote: »

I'm from Galway. I most definitely have no allegiance to Dublin. I train kids. I understand what the money given to Dublin is being used for. You can say none of my arguments stack up. Fair enough. I couldn't care less. I haven't seen much in the way of facts from any of your posts either.

So I'll ask a few questions. Do you not find it strange with all the money pumped into Dublin Gaa they are not dominating underage in any sense? Surely this is where it should be evident at this stage?

Why are the Dublin hurlers not making any inroads into winning titles? Other than a golden couple of years (much like the current Dublin team) they have achieved very little.

Teams go through golden generations. People think they never end. Ask Kilkenny, Kerry, Man Utd fans do they end. They do.

Dublin hurlers are not making inroads as the football is #1 sport in clubs up there and most talented young lads choose football.

gaffer91

@Sonny678- your post is ridiculous.

While Dublin may have traditionally been the most dominant team, there is a difference between 5-6 titles a decade and 13 out of 14, including the last 8 in a row. The more recent titles have also been won at a canter every year. Having one to two other competitive teams is huge. You also acknowledge that Leinster was as competitive as its ever been in the decade prior to the increase in funding but don't see the link between the two (or at least, don't care).

Underage success doesn’t necessarily translate into senior success.

You then go on for paragraphs trying to rewrite history and say Dublin would definitely have won more titles if not for two managers. This is so laughable and crazy I don’t even know where to start.

thegills wrote: »

Too lazy to read through 12 pages but the initial post seemed to say that Dublin dominance is ruining the game. All evidence points against this. Kilkenny dominated hurling for longer and the game is now better than ever.

“What about Kilkenny” argument once again. Although this is a slight variation, at least you’re more innovative than most.

Happyilylost wrote: »

I'm from Galway. I most definitely have no allegiance to Dublin. I train kids. I understand what the money given to Dublin is being used for.

You are biased towards Dublin. You may not even realise it, but you are. No rational, unbiased person could possibly draw the conclusions you're drawing.

Happyilylost wrote: »

So I'll ask a few questions. Do you not find it strange with all the money pumped into Dublin Gaa they are not dominating underage in any sense? Surely this is where it should be evident at this stage?

I could equally ask you, do you not find it strange that that Dublin seniors started dominating after all the money was pumped in?

(By the way, Dublin underage teams have been more successful over the last 15 years. Not to the same extent as seniors, but there has been an improvement)

Happyilylost wrote: »

Why are the Dublin hurlers not making any inroads into winning titles? Other than a golden couple of years (much like the current Dublin team) they have achieved very little.

Addressed in the article? Have you even read it?

Happyilylost wrote: »

Teams go through golden generations. People think they never end. Ask Kilkenny, Kerry, Man Utd fans do they end. They do.

This has not been just one Dublin team though- it's been several. There has been significant change in players year on year. There is no reason, besides bias, to think this won't continue indefinitely.

The dominance won't end if all the unfair advantages that started this run continue.

Mr. Incognito

Clareman wrote: »

Instead of penalising Dublin for a job well done why get the model that they have (which is clearly working) and give it to every other county that wants it?

I think that's a great idea.

Lets pick a county- give them 17 million for ten years and rotate it around and see how they get on.

i highly recommend the ignore list for blatant trollers on this forum. It adds years to your life.

The reality is that people are deflecting.

They say that the Dublin underage teams are not dominating. That's a straw man argument. Kids dont benefit from sports science. They are kids. They benefit from coaching and practice and only when they get to an older age does the finanical doping kick in with more analysis, more sophisticated sports science. If anything it proves the point. Dublin are not dominating because those players are not naturally the best players. They are coached and moulded into a system that makes them dominate.

Dublins game is a tightly defined system based on an athletic running game. They run and run and run with ball in hand and they will bring in a few more lads off the bench to run. They dont play a particularly stylish game though they do have a few exceptional players. They play in a tightly defined system. They in the main wear you down by sheer athleticism and a deep bench and each player playing a role. Throw in a few reliable free takers and its a template that can take even average or below average kids and win games. Plenty of Dublin players were not underage stars. Brian Fenton was playing Junior B for example. They will analyse a Defensive system like tyrones and systematically take it apart. That system takes resources, analaysis, and lots and lots of money.

You would never see a Gooch play for Dublin for example. A scrawny skillfull player. He just wouldnt fit the template.

Dublin Football had a tradition. Add in the finanical doping and they have dominated Leinster and then the All Ireland. This will continue. One or two traditional counties will give them a game but will eventually be burnt off and Football will be over.

Dublin do not have a hurling tradition. None. Their last all ireland final appearance was 1938. Yet were able to compete from a zero base with enormous financial resources being pumped in brining in outside Counties managers. However Hurling relies much more than football on skill rather than athleticism.

As the coaching improves and the current generation of players turn the corner into coaches then Dublin will have tradition and in another ten years will probably come to Dominate Hurling in the Same way.

The reality is the full time administrators are Dubs and will prioritise their own county and it wont change and they wont care.Throw in the fact they play most of their games at home and it generates money then Dublin are basically a home town team soaking up all the money around

It doesnt detract that they have good players or a good manager or hard working back room team.

But it does detract from the sport and from fair play. Most fair weather fans dont care. And they have jumped on the bandwagon.

Anyone who actually cares about the game and its long term survival does.

ToBeFrank123

If underage coaching is not the be all and end all some make it out, why are Dubs so keen to protect their perceived advantage in this area. The way some make it out, underage coaching has no impact whatsoever on the long term quality of footballer the county produces.

Fine, Dublin has its house in order now. Take the money away from them. Its no longer needed.

Give it to genuinely underperforming counties, not a county that has won 6 of the last 8 AIs or 5 of the last 6 National Leagues.

Dublin is clearly now an over-performing county.

Perifect

Lads, I thought that it was all a bit of a joke and not really true. You know, ah sure Dublin have loads of money, their big backroom team etc. It was just a bit of banter. But the truth is that it's not a joke, they have actually received a huge amount of money. Far, far, far ahead of any other county. How can this be defended? Some posts above state that Dublin dominated apart from 2 periods, one of them being directly before all this money was given to Dublin. Then other posts asked why aren't Dublin achieving anything in hurling and at underage, I thought they had been achieving loads in both of those.

ToBeFrank123

Someone pointed out earlier that Dublin are in fact achieving in hurling and its their most successful period in 70 years.

The problem for Dublin hurling is there is little or no tradition there. Dublin football has a much bigger infrastructure. This makes a huge difference. Retired Dublin footballers who won AIs go on to become full time coaches paid for by the GAA. There were always far more football players and clubs than hurling in Dublin. Dublin hurling was starting from a much lower base. The footballers meanwhile were always knocking on the door, but with the aid of a nice boost from the GAA were shoved over the line.

Tradition is huge in the GAA. You could invest millions in Kerry hurling for example and there is no guarantee they will come close to winning a Munster title. Invest the same millions in Kerry football at all levels and they'd be winning All-Ireland's year in year out. Although if Dublin are/were getting the same millions, Kerry would have to deal with other disadvantages such as smaller population and Dublin would still win more AIs.

Marginal gains make a huge difference in every sport imo. And the team with the most money can best exploit marginal gains.

Mr. Incognito

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Someone pointed out earlier that Dublin are in fact achieving in hurling and its their most successful period in 70 years.

The problem for Dublin hurling is there is little or no tradition there. Dublin football has a much bigger infrastructure. This makes a huge difference. Retired Dublin footballers who won AIs go on to become full time coaches paid for by the GAA. There were always far more football players and clubs than hurling in Dublin. Dublin hurling was starting from a much lower base. The footballers meanwhile were always knocking on the door, but with the aid of a nice boost from the GAA were shoved over the line.

Tradition is huge in the GAA. You could invest millions in Kerry hurling for example and there is no guarantee they will come close to winning a Munster title. Invest the same millions in Kerry football at all levels and they'd be winning All-Ireland's year in year out. Although if Dublin are/were getting the same millions, Kerry would have to deal with other disadvantages such as smaller population and Dublin would still win more AIs.

Marginal gains make a huge difference in every sport imo. And the team with the most money can best exploit marginal gains.

Kerry hurlers are Division 1. Give me 17 million and they will win a Munster title in 10 years.

gaffer91

Perifect wrote: »

Lads, I thought that it was all a bit of a joke and not really true. You know, ah sure Dublin have loads of money, their big backroom team etc. It was just a bit of banter. But the truth is that it's not a joke, they have actually received a huge amount of money. Far, far, far ahead of any other county. How can this be defended? Some posts above state that Dublin dominated apart from 2 periods, one of them being directly before all this money was given to Dublin. Then other posts asked why aren't Dublin achieving anything in hurling and at underage, I thought they had been achieving loads in both of those.

The article barely touches on other sources of significant funding.

See this article on the funding Bertie Ahern helped provide for instance.

If you google "Bertie Ahern Dublin GAA", there are loads more like it.

Then AIG giving €4 million, and their other 'partners', and you see how this is really a massive problem.