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Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

3 to 4 million- I said. I not opposed to either figure.
He could be correct with 4 million+ Its within a ball park that believeable.
You guys still claim six million number and no nothing less. He doesn't agree with you either

Naahh, your estimates are 2.5 to 3 million. I remember that pretty clearly.

Now you've jumped up to 4.2 to 4.5.

What made you change your mind?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You're not telling me how the arrived at those numbers with no records. Answer the question?

Through actual research because they are actual historians who actually know what they are talking about.

Also if you read the link, they explain a bit how they did their research.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies is a difficult task. There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II.

To accurately estimate the extent of human losses, scholars, Jewish organizations, and governmental agencies since the 1940s have relied on a variety of different records, such as census reports, captured German and Axis archives, and postwar investigations, to compile these statistics. As more documents come to light or as scholars arrive at a more precise understanding of the Holocaust, estimates of human losses may change.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You guys still claim the six million number and dropping below that is holocust denial.

That wasn't us btw. That was Nullzero's claim.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Through actual research because they are actual historians who actually know what they are talking about.

Also if you read the link, they explain a bit how they did their research.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Yes it is hard.
Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies is a difficult task.

Like i said. Estimates are not facts.
There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II.

Yes i provided the last known one for 1933.
census reports

Meaningless statement if Nazis kept no records.
captured German and Axis archives

No records, you can't accurately know.
postwar investigations

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

That wasn't us btw. That was Nullzero's claim.

He got his own mind. I don't feel the need to attack him for it. Opposite can be said for you guys, it all point scoring.

I have forgotten what was the discussion was about previously now You guys can respond to Nullzero posts and stop detrailing the thread.

nullzero

For clarity. My assumption is that stating less than the almost universally agreed 6 million number died is holocaust denial.

With that said Cheerful spring is not coming across as an antisemite and isn't denying the holocaust occurred at all. I will agree to disagree but I would suggest that if an appetite exists for a holocaust denial discussion then it should take place in a dedicated thread or alternatively via PM. This thread is so far off topic now any new posters would struggle to understand what is going on here.

I'm happy to discuss censorship if anyone is interested. I've said my piece on holocaust denial at this stage.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

3 to 4 million- I said. I not opposed to either figure.

It was 2.5 to 3 million according to you

Why have you changed it?

King Mob

nullzero wrote: »

For clarity. My assumption is that stating less than the almost universally agreed 6 million number died is holocaust denial.

With that said Cheerful spring is not coming across as an antisemite and isn't denying the holocaust occurred at all. I will agree to disagree

lol.
When you first stated those things, you weren't stating them as assumptions. You were stating them as facts.
Now, to avoid disagreeing with a conspiracy theorist you're walking back on your previous stance.

Cheerful is denying the holocaust. He is using baseless claims and silly arguments to deny that millions of deaths occured.
You know his arguments are ridiculous, but you won't comment as such.

So now, do you believe that holocaust denial is an acceptable form of "alternative" thought? If so, why did you change your mind?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Yes it is hard.


Like i said. Estimates are not facts.


Yes i provided the last known one for 1933.

Meaningless statement if Nazis kept no records.


No records, you can't accurately know.

Lol. Cheerful. The page shows you an example of a record kept by the Nazis.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/artifact/hartheim-register?parent=en%2F11652

So if these arguments held, why do the historians at the holocaust museum claim these things? Are they bad historians? Are you better at historical research than them?

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Lol. Cheerful. The page shows you an example of a record kept by the Nazis.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/artifact/hartheim-register?parent=en%2F11652

So if these arguments held, why do the historians at the holocaust museum claim these things? Are they bad historians? Are you better at historical research than them?

Can't stop can you?

Can you read?

Your document. They don't say Jews, they say persons! Austria! euthanasia" program!

"One of the primary documents used to calculate the number of deaths in the Nazi "euthanasia" program is this register discovered in a locked filing cabinet by US Army troops in 1945 at a killing site in Hartheim, Austria. The right page details by month the number of patients who were "disinfected" in 1940. The final column indicates that 35,224 persons had been put to death that year.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Can't stop can you?

Can you read?

Your document. They don't say Jews, they say persons! Austria! euthanasia" program!

"One of the primary documents used to calculate the number of deaths in the Nazi "euthanasia" program is this register discovered in a locked filing cabinet by US Army troops in 1945 at a killing site in Hartheim, Austria. The right page details by month the number of patients who were "disinfected" in 1940. The final column indicates that 35,224 persons had been put to death that year.

lol yes. And?
Are you saying that this document is fake? Or that the historians at the Holocaust museum are misinterpreting the document?

Again, could you explain why these qualified historians are wrong?

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

lol yes. And?
Are you saying that this document is fake? Or that the historians at the Holocaust museum are misinterpreting the document?

Again, could you explain why these qualified historians are wrong?

Holocaust occurred in Poland and near the Czech border. There were no gas chamber death camps in Austria or Germany.

Your claim is the 6 million holocaust number accurate. Show me one record to prove that anything will be suffice?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Holocaust occurred in Poland and near the Czech border. There were no gas chamber death camps in Austria or Germany.

Cheerful. The holocaust was not just about gas chambers.

Your claim is the 6 million holocaust number accurate. Show me one record to prove that anything will be suffice?

You keep making demands, yet keep refusing to answer simple questions.


Again. I have linked to a break down of the numbers from the holocaust museum.
That break down is the work of trained historians who have researched the holocaust. They provide examples of documents. I'm sure if you were actually interested you yourself can look into the research papers that they use as references.

So why do you believe that these trained and qualified historians who spent their careers researching the holocaust are wrong?
Are they distorting things on purpose or do you just know things that they don't?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Holocaust occurred in Poland and near the Czech border. There were no gas chamber death camps in Austria or Germany.

Your claim is the 6 million holocaust number accurate. Show me one record to prove that anything will suffice?

These are not "our" claims. Secondly no one has to prove the Holocaust to you

The widely agreed upon figure by the consensus of experts on the subject is around 6 million. That figure has changed since the early decades because more information has come to light.

Other groups of people were targeted in the Holocaust, you don't challenge any of those figures. Just the Jewish ones.

You've never even read a book about the Holocaust.

You keep referring to people somehow claiming the 6 million are related entirely to gassing, which is false. The 6 million is a culmination of all deaths via multiple means that includes gas chambers, that includes shootings and other means.

You also just changed your estimate. In the past it was 2.5 to 3 million, now it's "whatever Reitlinger said it was". Suddenly one historian who produced a book in 1953 is infallible because it must be "anything but the 6 million number"

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

These are not "our" claims. Secondly no one has to prove the Holocaust to you

The widely agreed upon figure by the consensus of experts on the subject is around 6 million. That figure has changed since the early decades because more information has come to light.

Other groups of people were targeted in the Holocaust, you don't challenge any of those figures. Just the Jewish ones.

You've never even read a book about the Holocaust.

You keep referring to people somehow claiming the 6 million are related entirely to gassing, which is false. The 6 million is a culmination of all deaths via multiple means that includes gas chambers, that includes shootings and

other means.

You also just changed your estimate. In the past it was 2.5 to 3 million, now it's "whatever Reitlinger said it was". Suddenly one historian who produced a book in 1953 is infallible because it must be "anything but the 6 million number"

In any case, you do accept the six million accurate (start from there)
Why do you suppose that number true? What have you read that persuades you?
Can you post one document here that indicates the true statistics? You say there evidence don’t you?
Forgetting again, i said the Holocust was death camp gassing, and death squad shootings .
Where the documentation for both. They compiled how? 
You believe all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves? That make sense to you why?  How does that make sense ( is the census from 1933 wrong?)

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Forgetting again, i said the Holocust was death camp gassing, and death squad shootings .

Cheerful, this is not the correct definition of the Holocaust.
When real historians are refering to the holocaust they aren't only referring to "death camp gassing and death squad shootings".
They correctly include many other things as well.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You believe all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves? That make sense to you why?  How does that make sense ( is the census from 1933 wrong?)

This is not what historians claim. You are being dishonest and misrepresenting real history.
Point to one actual historian claiming this.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Cheerful, this is not the correct definition of the Holocaust.
When real historians are refering to the holocaust they aren't only referring to "death camp gassing and death squad shootings".
They correctly include many other things as well.


This is not what historians claim. You are being dishonest and misrepresenting real history.
Point to one actual historian claiming this.

What do they claim then? Can you provide a website where they discuss other things?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

What do they claim then? Can you provide a website where they discuss other things?

Lol. Yes. I've already provided it.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113168309&postcount=196
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Jewish Loss by Location of Death
With regard to the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust, best estimates for the breakdown of Jewish loss according to location of death follow:

Location of Death Jewish Losses
Auschwitz complex (including Birkenau, Monowitz, and subcamps) approximately 1 million
Treblinka 2 approximately 925,000
Belzec 434,508
Sobibor at least 167,000
Chelmno 156,000–172,000
Shooting operations at various locations in central and southern German-occupied Poland (the Government General) at least 200,000
Shooting operations in German-annexed western Poland (District Wartheland) at least 20,000
Deaths in other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps at least 150,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons at hundreds of locations in the German-occupied Soviet Union at least 1.3 million
Shooting operations in the Soviet Union (German, Austrian, Czech Jews deported to the Soviet Union) approximately 55,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons in Serbia at least 15,088
Shot or tortured to death in Croatia under the Ustaša regime 23,000–25,000
Deaths in ghettos at least 800,000
Other1 at least 500,000

Provide a single historian that "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves"

Please link and quote directly in your next post.

nullzero

King Mob wrote: »

lol.
When you first stated those things, you weren't stating them as assumptions. You were stating them as facts.
Now, to avoid disagreeing with a conspiracy theorist you're walking back on your previous stance.

Cheerful is denying the holocaust. He is using baseless claims and silly arguments to deny that millions of deaths occured.
You know his arguments are ridiculous, but you won't comment as such.

So now, do you believe that holocaust denial is an acceptable form of "alternative" thought? If so, why did you change your mind?

You really do enjoy making things up and attributing them to others don't you?

If Cheerful wants to deny the holocaust happened I'm not going to agree with that assertion.

I have never once said that I feel holocaust denial is acceptable. I stated that Cheerful's stance did not appear to be rooted in antisemitism nor was it indicative of a complete denial of the holocaust.

Here we are again veering off topic to suit you and your obsession with holocaust denial.

Is it at all possible for you to discuss the topic at hand and take this holocaust denial discussion to a suitable thread or Pm?

Also, this habit you have of starting posts with "lol" is making me feel like I'm reading something typed by a teenage girl.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

In any case, you do accept the six million accurate (start from there)
Why do you suppose that number true? What have you read that persuades you?
Can you post one document here that indicates the true statistics? You say there evidence don’t you?
Forgetting again, i said the Holocust was death camp gassing, and death squad shootings .
Where the documentation for both. They compiled how? 
You believe all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves? That make sense to you why?  How does that make sense ( is the census from 1933 wrong?)

"Prove it to me, I'll never accept it" every single time.

Again no one has to prove accepted historical fact to you. Your ignorance of a subject is not an argument against it.

You believe in aliens, you think "secret Nazi's" killed JFK, and then pulled off 911 as an inside job, if you want to believe 3 million Jews died, or 4 million died, not one person will convince you otherwise

King Mob

nullzero wrote: »

I have never once said that I feel holocaust denial is acceptable. I stated that Cheerful's stance did not appear to be rooted in antisemitism nor was it indicative of a complete denial of the holocaust.

Lol Ok.
He's only partially denying the holocaust.
He's a partial holocaust denier.

Partially denying the holocaust is acceptable?

And what part am I making up? That you find his arguments ridiculous?
Do you agree with his arguments? Do you feel they are sound and have merit?

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Lol. Yes. I've already provided it.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113168309&postcount=196
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution



Provide a single historian that "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves"

Please link and quote directly in your next post.

How did they calculate the numbers shown? Do you know? If you don't know how they did it, then you have no proof they are accurate? We can end the discussion here and move on?

nullzero

King Mob wrote: »

Lol Ok.
He's only partially denying the holocaust.
He's a partial holocaust denier.

Partially denying the holocaust is acceptable?

And what part am I making up? That you find his arguments ridiculous?
Do you agree with his arguments? Do you feel they are sound and have merit?

You're making up the part that says I'm "walking back" on what I said previously. I haven't please cite an example of me changing my stance on this topic once, and I mean in a factual sense, not your perception of it.

Seriously, the lol thing is really grating, not as grating as your nonsensical approach to discussion, but close nonetheless.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

How did they calculate the numbers shown? Do you know? If you don't know how they did it, then you have no proof they are accurate? We can end the discussion here and move on?

The calculated the numbers using actual historical research because they are actual historians. They explain how they calculated the numbers in the link I gave you.
I know they are accurate because those researchers have to publish their research in peer reviewed journals. If their research was not accurate and wasn't backed , it would not be on the website for the holocaust museum.

You haven't provided any example of any historian claiming "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves".
No historian claims that.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

The calculated the numbers using actual historical research because they are actual historians. They explain how they calculated the numbers in the link I gave you.
I know they are accurate because those researchers have to publish their research in peer reviewed journals. If their research was not accurate and wasn't backed , it would not be on the website for the holocaust museum.

You haven't provided any example of any historian claiming "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves".
No historian claims that.

This debate was over before it started. Even the holocaust website you posted said this

quote
"There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II.

How can you arrive at 6 million number, when they're not a single wartime document left behind that confirms that number?

King Mob

nullzero wrote: »

You're making up the part that says I'm "walking back" on what I said previously. I haven't please cite an example of me changing my stance on this topic once, and I mean in a factual sense, not your perception of it.

You previously stated that claiming less than 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust was holocaust denial and that it was unacceptable.

nullzero wrote: »

To clarify, 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. Striving to accurately describe the mode of death for all of them is acceptable. Saying a few million less died in total isn't.

nullzero wrote: »

Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.

We have established that Cheerful claims that less than 6 million Jewish died in the holocaust and is rounding that number down to to 3-4 million.

Yet you are now saying that cheerful isn't denying the holocaust and that his stance is acceptable.

That's walking back.
You are walking back on your own stance to avoid disagreeing with a holocaust denier.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

This debate was over before it started. Even the holocaust website you posted said this

quote
"There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II.

How can you arrive at 6 million number, when they're not a single wartime document left behind that confirms that number?

Lol.
Cheerful they explain this in the link. I've answer this question to before.
There isn't one single wartime document. So actual historians have to do actual research and compile information from many different sources.
That's how historians work.

You keep demanding things while ignoring questions.
For example you can't provide a single historian that says what you claim they say. Why not?

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Lol.
Cheerful they explain this in the link. I've answer this question to before.
There isn't one single wartime document. So actual historians have to do actual research and compile information from many different sources.
That's how historians work.

You keep demanding things while ignoring questions.
For example you can't provide a single historian that says what you claim they say. Why not?

Again in black for you.
There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust

King Mob

nullzero wrote: »

Seriously, the lol thing is really grating, not as grating as your nonsensical approach to discussion, but close nonetheless.

Sorry, but when someone starts claiming millions of holocaust victims didn't die because they know more than the historians who work for the Holocaust Museum/believe those historians are involved in a conspiracy, I find it very ridiculous.

The lol conveys this. Sorry if it bugs you.

However wasn't someone saying something about playing the ball, not the man earlier?

nullzero

King Mob wrote: »

You previously stated that claiming less than 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust was holocaust denial and that it was unacceptable.





We have established that Cheerful claims that less than 6 million Jewish died in the holocaust and is rounding that number down to to 3-4 million.

Yet you are now saying that cheerful isn't denying the holocaust and that his stance is acceptable.

That's walking back.
You are walking back on your own stance to avoid disagreeing with a holocaust denier.

I never said that his stance was acceptable. Quote me saying his stance is acceptable please. What you are engaging in here is blatant misrepresentation.
I disagree with his stance but I also stated that he does not appear to be an antisemite which I may be wrong about but it appears he isn't.
I disagree with him but don't feel the need to ridicule him because of it.

I have never "walked back" on anything I've said here. You are telling porkie pies when you say that. The barefaced cheek of you.