The examples the company cited include "promoting a phony miracle cure for a serious illness, claiming the earth is flat, or making blatantly false claims about historic events like 9/11."
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » 3 to 4 million- I said. I not opposed to either figure. He could be correct with 4 million+ Its within a ball park that believeable. You guys still claim six million number and no nothing less. He doesn't agree with you either
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You're not telling me how the arrived at those numbers with no records. Answer the question?
Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies is a difficult task. There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II. To accurately estimate the extent of human losses, scholars, Jewish organizations, and governmental agencies since the 1940s have relied on a variety of different records, such as census reports, captured German and Axis archives, and postwar investigations, to compile these statistics. As more documents come to light or as scholars arrive at a more precise understanding of the Holocaust, estimates of human losses may change.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You guys still claim the six million number and dropping below that is holocust denial.
King Mob wrote: » Through actual research because they are actual historians who actually know what they are talking about. Also if you read the link, they explain a bit how they did their research.https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
King Mob wrote: » That wasn't us btw. That was Nullzero's claim.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » 3 to 4 million- I said. I not opposed to either figure.
nullzero wrote: » For clarity. My assumption is that stating less than the almost universally agreed 6 million number died is holocaust denial. With that said Cheerful spring is not coming across as an antisemite and isn't denying the holocaust occurred at all. I will agree to disagree
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Yes it is hard. Like i said. Estimates are not facts. Yes i provided the last known one for 1933. Meaningless statement if Nazis kept no records. No records, you can't accurately know.
King Mob wrote: » Lol. Cheerful. The page shows you an example of a record kept by the Nazis.https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/artifact/hartheim-register?parent=en%2F11652 So if these arguments held, why do the historians at the holocaust museum claim these things? Are they bad historians? Are you better at historical research than them?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Can't stop can you? Can you read? Your document. They don't say Jews, they say persons! Austria! euthanasia" program! "One of the primary documents used to calculate the number of deaths in the Nazi "euthanasia" program is this register discovered in a locked filing cabinet by US Army troops in 1945 at a killing site in Hartheim, Austria. The right page details by month the number of patients who were "disinfected" in 1940. The final column indicates that 35,224 persons had been put to death that year.
King Mob wrote: » lol yes. And? Are you saying that this document is fake? Or that the historians at the Holocaust museum are misinterpreting the document? Again, could you explain why these qualified historians are wrong?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Holocaust occurred in Poland and near the Czech border. There were no gas chamber death camps in Austria or Germany.
Your claim is the 6 million holocaust number accurate. Show me one record to prove that anything will be suffice?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Holocaust occurred in Poland and near the Czech border. There were no gas chamber death camps in Austria or Germany.Your claim is the 6 million holocaust number accurate. Show me one record to prove that anything will suffice?
Dohnjoe wrote: » These are not "our" claims. Secondly no one has to prove the Holocaust to you The widely agreed upon figure by the consensus of experts on the subject is around 6 million. That figure has changed since the early decades because more information has come to light. Other groups of people were targeted in the Holocaust, you don't challenge any of those figures. Just the Jewish ones. You've never even read a book about the Holocaust. You keep referring to people somehow claiming the 6 million are related entirely to gassing, which is false. The 6 million is a culmination of all deaths via multiple means that includes gas chambers, that includes shootings and other means. You also just changed your estimate. In the past it was 2.5 to 3 million, now it's "whatever Reitlinger said it was". Suddenly one historian who produced a book in 1953 is infallible because it must be "anything but the 6 million number"
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Forgetting again, i said the Holocust was death camp gassing, and death squad shootings .
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You believe all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves? That make sense to you why? How does that make sense ( is the census from 1933 wrong?)
King Mob wrote: » Cheerful, this is not the correct definition of the Holocaust. When real historians are refering to the holocaust they aren't only referring to "death camp gassing and death squad shootings". They correctly include many other things as well. This is not what historians claim. You are being dishonest and misrepresenting real history. Point to one actual historian claiming this.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » What do they claim then? Can you provide a website where they discuss other things?
Jewish Loss by Location of Death With regard to the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust, best estimates for the breakdown of Jewish loss according to location of death follow: Location of Death Jewish Losses Auschwitz complex (including Birkenau, Monowitz, and subcamps) approximately 1 million Treblinka 2 approximately 925,000 Belzec 434,508 Sobibor at least 167,000 Chelmno 156,000–172,000 Shooting operations at various locations in central and southern German-occupied Poland (the Government General) at least 200,000 Shooting operations in German-annexed western Poland (District Wartheland) at least 20,000 Deaths in other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps at least 150,000 Shooting operations and gas wagons at hundreds of locations in the German-occupied Soviet Union at least 1.3 million Shooting operations in the Soviet Union (German, Austrian, Czech Jews deported to the Soviet Union) approximately 55,000 Shooting operations and gas wagons in Serbia at least 15,088 Shot or tortured to death in Croatia under the Ustaša regime 23,000–25,000 Deaths in ghettos at least 800,000 Other1 at least 500,000
King Mob wrote: » lol. When you first stated those things, you weren't stating them as assumptions. You were stating them as facts. Now, to avoid disagreeing with a conspiracy theorist you're walking back on your previous stance. Cheerful is denying the holocaust. He is using baseless claims and silly arguments to deny that millions of deaths occured. You know his arguments are ridiculous, but you won't comment as such. So now, do you believe that holocaust denial is an acceptable form of "alternative" thought? If so, why did you change your mind?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » In any case, you do accept the six million accurate (start from there) Why do you suppose that number true? What have you read that persuades you? Can you post one document here that indicates the true statistics? You say there evidence don’t you? Forgetting again, i said the Holocust was death camp gassing, and death squad shootings . Where the documentation for both. They compiled how? You believe all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves? That make sense to you why? How does that make sense ( is the census from 1933 wrong?)
nullzero wrote: » I have never once said that I feel holocaust denial is acceptable. I stated that Cheerful's stance did not appear to be rooted in antisemitism nor was it indicative of a complete denial of the holocaust.
King Mob wrote: » Lol. Yes. I've already provided it.https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113168309&postcount=196https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Provide a single historian that "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves" Please link and quote directly in your next post.
King Mob wrote: » Lol Ok. He's only partially denying the holocaust. He's a partial holocaust denier. Partially denying the holocaust is acceptable? And what part am I making up? That you find his arguments ridiculous? Do you agree with his arguments? Do you feel they are sound and have merit?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » How did they calculate the numbers shown? Do you know? If you don't know how they did it, then you have no proof they are accurate? We can end the discussion here and move on?
King Mob wrote: » The calculated the numbers using actual historical research because they are actual historians. They explain how they calculated the numbers in the link I gave you. I know they are accurate because those researchers have to publish their research in peer reviewed journals. If their research was not accurate and wasn't backed , it would not be on the website for the holocaust museum. You haven't provided any example of any historian claiming "all six million Jews got rounded up after 1933 and were gassed or shot and thrown into open graves". No historian claims that.
nullzero wrote: » You're making up the part that says I'm "walking back" on what I said previously. I haven't please cite an example of me changing my stance on this topic once, and I mean in a factual sense, not your perception of it.
nullzero wrote: » To clarify, 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. Striving to accurately describe the mode of death for all of them is acceptable. Saying a few million less died in total isn't.
nullzero wrote: » Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » This debate was over before it started. Even the holocaust website you posted said this quote "There is no single wartime document created by Nazi officials that spells out how many people were killed in the Holocaust or World War II. How can you arrive at 6 million number, when they're not a single wartime document left behind that confirms that number?
King Mob wrote: » Lol. Cheerful they explain this in the link. I've answer this question to before. There isn't one single wartime document. So actual historians have to do actual research and compile information from many different sources. That's how historians work. You keep demanding things while ignoring questions. For example you can't provide a single historian that says what you claim they say. Why not?
nullzero wrote: » Seriously, the lol thing is really grating, not as grating as your nonsensical approach to discussion, but close nonetheless.
King Mob wrote: » You previously stated that claiming less than 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust was holocaust denial and that it was unacceptable. We have established that Cheerful claims that less than 6 million Jewish died in the holocaust and is rounding that number down to to 3-4 million. Yet you are now saying that cheerful isn't denying the holocaust and that his stance is acceptable. That's walking back. You are walking back on your own stance to avoid disagreeing with a holocaust denier.
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