Leaf e+ 62kWh

slave1

Lantus wrote: »

Great ré range but disappointing the cost is going up.

A good ice car can be bought for 30k new and even more choice 2nd hand. Even for the likes of me driving 500km a week which is 30eu diesel that's 1500 a year which gets me 10 years of driving before I break even with leaf plus without allowing for any elec costs.

Vw id range should tip the economics firmly towards EV by selling cars <30k.

Don't forget severely reduced servicing costs, minimal need for pad/disc replacement, (current) reduced depreciation v's an ICE car, reduced tolls and overall less chance of anything major going wrong versus a much higher number of moving parts in an ICE.
This sets aside other EV benefits such as remote access and of course environmental point of driving emmissions

slave1

redlead wrote: »

These 35k model 3s are going to be available in the same showrooms as the unicorns. I can't believe some people are still "buying it".

The 35k option was never an option in Ireland, it was $35k in the US and that option has now become a reality over there

Oafley Jones

slave1 wrote: »

The 35k option was never an option in Ireland, it was $35k in the US and that option has now become a reality over there

They haven't delivered a single one and those orders are delayed indefinitely.

ELM327

redlead wrote: »

These 35k model 3s are going to be available in the same showrooms as the unicorns. I can't believe some people are still "buying it".

Are you having a laugh?
There was never a €35k model.

Lantus

slave1 wrote: »

Don't forget severely reduced servicing costs, minimal need for pad/disc replacement, (current) reduced depreciation v's an ICE car, reduced tolls and overall less chance of anything major going wrong versus a much higher number of moving parts in an ICE.
This sets aside other EV benefits such as remote access and of course environmental point of driving emmissions

EV drives well and there are other ancillary benefits but they are financially much less significant. Brake replacement on any car is minimal and infrequent.

If your car budget is 40k its a no brainer. If your in the 10k to 30k range it needs very careful financial consideration.

Old diesel

What do we think of the battery temps during the rapid charge.....

On the one hand it's a bigger battery so charging and taking heat on rapid for longer.

However a jump from 20 degrees to 34 degrees battery temp isn't great at 37 to 39 kw on a battery meant to be able to do 70 to 100 kw.

The design for Japanese conditions seems to be an issue again.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

What do we think of the battery temps during the rapid charge.....

On the one hand it's a bigger battery so charging and taking heat on rapid for longer.

Surely that won't be an issue. A L62 in Ireland can only fast charge at 44kW, which is just 0.7C

Ioniq can charge at almost 3C and Tesla Model 3 can charge at well over 3C, both without overheating issues...

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

What do we think of the battery temps during the rapid charge.....

On the one hand it's a bigger battery so charging and taking heat on rapid for longer.

Surely that won't be an issue. A L62 in Ireland can only fast charge at 44kW, which is just 0.7C

Ioniq can charge at almost 3C and Tesla Model 3 can charge at well over 3C, both without overheating issues...

Tesla and Ioniq have active cooling.

It shouldnt be an issue - I just thought the increase in temp looked a bit much on the reviewers leafspy.

I know Nissan UK said L62 has a fan but I understood this to be an error on their part.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Surely that won't be an issue. A L62 in Ireland can only fast charge at 44kW, which is just 0.7C

Ioniq can charge at almost 3C and Tesla Model 3 can charge at well over 3C, both without overheating issues...

But bigger battery equals bigger internal resistance equals more heat buildup


That's the problem with tesco value batteries and bms, no cooling.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

But bigger battery equals bigger internal resistance equals more heat buildup


That's the problem with tesco value batteries and bms, no cooling.

No, More Kwh does not mean higher internal resistance.

However, a 60 Kwh battery may well have a higher internal resistance than a 40 Kwh but the 2 are not related. The 62 Kwh will have the cells packed tighter together.

Batteries are always a compromise meaning you have to usually trade Current capability for energy density or cycle life over lower internal resistance and or both.

For example, if we take the Leaf 24 Kwh battery and lets just say to simplify things it had a C rate or 0.5 and it was then doubled in kwh to 44 Kwh , exact same chemistry then it can handle twice the current or 1C and give off the same heat because the internal resistance is the same.

It would take longer to heat up due to the larger mass but also longer to cool down and depending how the cells are packed together depends also on how fast it heats up.

A 62 Kwh leaf is hardly going to heat up at a 44 Kw charger.

If we took the 24 Kwh leaf and lowered the internal resistance it could charge at higher power.

We also still have not resolved the cold charging problem which effects all batteries and can make a significant difference to charging times.

I could easily live with a 40-50 Kwh battery if I could charge to 90% in 10 mins flat warm or cold battery and of course if there were lots of chargers.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

No, More Kwh does not mean higher internal resistance.

However, a 60 Kwh battery may well have a higher internal resistance than a 40 Kwh but the 2 are not related. The 62 Kwh will have the cells packed tighter together.

Batteries are always a compromise meaning you have to usually trade Current capability for energy density or cycle life over lower internal resistance and or both.

For example, if we take the Leaf 24 Kwh battery and lets just say to simplify things it had a C rate or 0.5 and it was then doubled in kwh to 44 Kwh , exact same chemistry then it can handle twice the current or 1C and give off the same heat because the internal resistance is the same.

It would take longer to heat up due to the larger mass but also longer to cool down and depending how the cells are packed together depends also on how fast it heats up.

A 62 Kwh leaf is hardly going to heat up at a 44 Kw charger.

If we took the 24 Kwh leaf and lowered the internal resistance it could charge at higher power.

We also still have not resolved the cold charging problem which effects all batteries and can make a significant difference to charging times.

I could easily live with a 40-50 Kwh battery if I could charge to 90% in 10 mins flat warm or cold battery and of course if there were lots of chargers.

Please clarify the clear dichotomy here.




As I understood the internal resistance increased with kWh size.
Even in the Kona vs Ioniq, this was the reason for going with liquid cooling vs air cooling in the Ioniq (active air cooling). With nothing at all except passive air cooling the leaf 60 will overheat at 44kW consistent. The car is designed in japan and not prepared for charge or discharge at that speed. It's the same motor and battery crap as 2011

Round Cable

ELM327 wrote: »

Please clarify the clear dichotomy here.




As I understood the internal resistance increased with kWh size.
Even in the Kona vs Ioniq, this was the reason for going with liquid cooling vs air cooling in the Ioniq (active air cooling). With nothing at all except passive air cooling the leaf 60 will overheat at 44kW consistent. The car is designed in japan and not prepared for charge or discharge at that speed. It's the same motor and battery crap as 2011

A Nissan exec was explaining the lower heat build up with the 62kwh battery pack at Clean Technica

“The key here is that number of cells that we have in parallel,” he said. “Previously, with the 40-kWh pack, we had 96 cells in series, like in a flashlight. In the previous generation we had two of those ‘stacks,’ if you will, of 96 cells. So you’re going from two layers to adding a third layer. That reduces your resistance. You can imagine drinking a glass of water. If you have one straw, you have some resistance from the straw. If you use two straws, you get less resistance, and reducing resistance obviously means you’re creating less heat.”

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Please clarify the clear dichotomy here.

As I understood the internal resistance increased with kWh size.
Even in the Kona vs Ioniq, this was the reason for going with liquid cooling vs air cooling in the Ioniq (active air cooling). With nothing at all except passive air cooling the leaf 60 will overheat at 44kW consistent. The car is designed in japan and not prepared for charge or discharge at that speed. It's the same motor and battery crap as 2011

Kwh or Ah are not related to internal resistance, internal resistance is due to the chemistry chosen. If internal resistance is higher with more Ah then this is due to coincidence.

Round Cable wrote: »

A Nissan exec was explaining the lower heat build up with the 62kwh battery pack at Clean Technica

“The key here is that number of cells that we have in parallel,” he said. “Previously, with the 40-kWh pack, we had 96 cells in series, like in a flashlight. In the previous generation we had two of those ‘stacks,’ if you will, of 96 cells. So you’re going from two layers to adding a third layer. That reduces your resistance. You can imagine drinking a glass of water. If you have one straw, you have some resistance from the straw. If you use two straws, you get less resistance, and reducing resistance obviously means you’re creating less heat.”

Yes, parallel the same battery chemistry together you get more power handling capability.

A Leaf 24 Kwh could charge twice as fast if another 24 Kwh was paralleled but it would be twice the size and would take twice as long to cool with twice the mass but also twice as long to cool.

If you have a 62 Kwh with half the mass and the same internal resistance it will heat up faster then 2 of the Leaf 24 Kwh paralleled together due to less mass.

Leaf 62 was able to achieve this with having more parallel cells due to improved energy density. More series cells give more Kwh but also less current capability.

Kwh = voltage x Ah.

Battery No.1

22 Ah 300 volt = 6.6 Kwh

if it has 0.5 C capability it can charge at 11 Amps. Double the Ah and it can handle double the current and you get double capacity internal resistance stays the same.

So 0.5 C = 11 amps x 300 volts = 3.3 Kw

Double the AH it can now charge at 1C or 22 amps x 300 volts = 6.6 Kw.

Battery No.2

11 Ah 600 Volts ( more cells connected in series )

Capacity = the same 6.6 Kwh and 0.5 C means now it can only charge at 5.5 amps or 3.3 Kw.

Remember doubling the Ah does not always = double the charging current or C rate, it applies only to batteries of 100% the same chemistry.

Doubling the Ah in the same size battery will mean it can take more current but not always double, again internal resistance is the factor mainly and the ability or lack of to remove the heat.

Mechatronical

Has anybody heard of when pricing will be announced or when test cars will arrive?

I have seen pricing on the French website of 37700 (n-connecta) to 39500 (tekna). I assume Irish prices will be a small bit cheaper then the french prices but not by much.

Has anyone guesstamated a price post the 10K in grants being reduced?

Also wondering if pricing came out within the next 2-3 months and an order was put in for the car would you get it before the end of the year?

slave1

Pricing likely to be in an around Kona and Niro pricing so about €39k mark, maybe bit more.
Just speculation of course

Soarer

Just got an email from Nissan saying I can order the 62 kWh Leaf for a refundable €200 deposit. Prices, specs, etc. to be confirmed.

Linky

ELM327

No pricing listed for the leaf62
Would expect this to undercut the SR+ Model 3 and Koniro on price

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

No pricing listed for the leaf62
Would expect this to undercut the SR+ Model 3 and Koniro on price

Yeah, me too. Maybe a €4-€5k scrappage scheme?

Which, you'd imagine, would involve the L40 being reduced too. Or a scrappage scheme.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

No pricing listed for the leaf62
Would expect this to undercut the SR+ Model 3 and Koniro on price

In Norway L62 is a lot more expensive than Kona and shockingly even a good bit more expensive than Model 3 SR+

According to Nyland's vid from a few days ago

I guess that will make the car ludicrously overpriced. Maybe appealing to die hard Nissan Leaf fans keen to upgrade their trusty L24/L30 for something from the same stables...

ELM327

Scrappage on the L40 but not the L60 I imagine, you don't offer scrappage on new models surely.
New L40 with scrappage for €20-€22k after scrappage would be a good deal.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

Scrappage on the L40 but not the L60 I imagine, you don't offer scrappage on new models surely.
New L40 with scrappage for €20-€22k after scrappage would be a good deal.

I was thinking as a way of coming in under the Kona without actually being cheaper, if you know what I mean.

Old diesel

ELM327 wrote: »

No pricing listed for the leaf62
Would expect this to undercut the SR+ Model 3 and Koniro on price

And it NEEDS to.

An eNiro has proper active cooling and the Tesla in EV terms has the cool factor of being a Tesla - plus access to Tesla supercharging AND CCS network.

Not sure how Nissan could compete without a cheaper price.

ELM327

I have to say I'm somewhat surprised with the stubborn sticking to chademo that Nissan are doing.
I mean, I don't understand why they don't just work within RenaultNissan and use the 22kW AC 100kW CCS2 DC from the new zoe.

You're right, there is no real argument to pay more than koniro for a non CCS car, or to pay more than a Tesla for a Nissan with no ccs.

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

Scrappage on the L40 but not the L60 I imagine, you don't offer scrappage on new models surely.
New L40 with scrappage for €20-€22k after scrappage would be a good deal.

Would be an incredible deal

Sadly if Nissan are on target for EU emission targets will be no scrappage i would say

Only reason they sell EVs

Tesla threat is gone

slave1

Soarer wrote: »

Just got an email from Nissan saying I can order the 62 kWh Leaf for a refundable €200 deposit. Prices, specs, etc. to be confirmed.

Linky

Pure marketing, €200 deposit on a new car LOL

Soarer

slave1 wrote: »

Pure marketing, €200 deposit on a new car LOL

Would a €1000 deposit like Tesla and VW make it less funny/marketing?

Old diesel

Mike9832 wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

Scrappage on the L40 but not the L60 I imagine, you don't offer scrappage on new models surely.
New L40 with scrappage for €20-€22k after scrappage would be a good deal.

Would be an incredible deal

Sadly if Nissan are on target for EU emission targets will be no scrappage i would say

Only reason they sell EVs

Tesla threat is gone

You can never rule out Tesla until it's literally dead and buried imo.

Even in worst case company goes bang i still see potential for Tesla to be bought out for brand* and expertise.

Would be more worried for Nissans EV future for as long as they see active cooling as a "luxury" they can avoid.

*think BMW with MINI - they bought the MINI name as part of Rover.

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

You can never rule out Tesla until it's literally dead and buried imo.

Even in worst case company goes bang i still see potential for Tesla to be bought out for brand* and expertise.

Would be more worried for Nissans EV future for as long as they see active cooling as a "luxury" they can avoid.

*think BMW with MINI - they bought the MINI name as part of Rover.

True about Tesla

At sub 25k the L40 is a very very good car

Something like a Dacia for sub 20k with active cooling for sure has a market

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

True about Tesla

At sub 25k the L40 is a very very good car

Something like a Dacia for sub 20k with active cooling for sure has a market

This is it. But a 42k L62 is an unwise buy. It'll depreciate more than any other EV for sale in 2020. Unless the car suits you, you want another Nissan and you will keep it for a very long time (not going beyond its range much), I would stay clear.

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

You can never rule out Tesla until it's literally dead and buried imo.

Even in worst case company goes bang i still see potential for Tesla to be bought out for brand* and expertise.

Would be more worried for Nissans EV future for as long as they see active cooling as a "luxury" they can avoid.

*think BMW with MINI - they bought the MINI name as part of Rover.

They will be bought by someone , too much brand collateral (name, image, supercharger network etc). Apple would be an interesting future owner!


But yes back on topic I agree, would be more worried about Nissan if they stick to Chademo in europe.