Gun attack at Christmas market, Strasbourg.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FTA69 wrote: »

Ah Tito was sound as a pound. In all seriousness though people I met, young and old, had a good fondness for him. As I said, it’s not the world’s best example, what I’m trying to get across is that “multiculturalism” is grand when it’s as a part of a wider civic identity and that people should be encouraged to integrate and work for the common good.

There were a lot worse communist dictators than Tito, I’ll give him that. It’s not a great list to top, the standards are low, but to the best of my knowledge he definitely tops it.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

Difference being that the stated aims and motivations of Islamic terrorists come from Islam and hatred of Kafir. So perception =/= reality.


Yet all of it has one thing in common. So why should we continue to accept it. Allowing more in, allowing more money in, allowing hate speech with some hand-wringing, dismissing valid concerns (and those proved true) is accepting it.

So what's your answer?

Danzy

Pretending it is all down to Racism is just the narcissism of so many activists, French society is bad, Europeans are at fault etc etc.

No one can have personal agency but react only to European wrongs.

Less and less people are buying it, especially in Working Class areas.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Deleted User wrote: »

As someone posted before in another thread, if you look at the North of England Hindus are economically successful and well-integrated. They started arriving en-masse around the same time as other people from around India. Why have they integrated so much better? Did English people in the 70s really know or care much about the difference between Hidus and Muslims, or enough to treat one group badly and by implication another group really well?

Hindus don't view Christians and Jews as trash who need to be conquered.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

So what's your answer?

Why do you want an answer to something you claim doesn't exist?

Danzy

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Hindus don't view Christians and Jews as trash.

Nor do they listen to calls to violence, hatred, supremacy, every week at Worship

FTA69

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Hindus don't view Christians and Jews as trash who need to be conquered.

A lot of them do actually. You’re off your rocker if you think there aren’t extremist or chauvinistic Hindus.

Most Muslims don’t think people of other religions are evil either for that matter.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you want an answer to something you claim doesn't exist?

I have no idea where you got that from.

But nevertheless, clearly you have ideas in your head of what the problem is and how to address it. Care to proffer something of substance?

Danzy

FTA69 wrote: »

A lot of them do actually. You’re off your rocker if you think there aren’t extremist or chauvinistic Hindus.

Most Muslims don’t think people of other religions are evil either for that matter.

No most Muslims are not extremist but a very large % hold varying levels of extremist views.

That can range from 28% supporting the killing of those insult the Prophet to near unanimity for criminalizing Gays.

Levels vary across time and place but it never is insignificant.

FTA69

Definitely is a lot of worrying and illiberal attitudes amongst many Muslims and an increased hardening in orthodoxy and observance but the idea that Islam inherently intends to subjugate Christianity etc or that Muslims go around hating their neighbours is untrue for the most part.

antietam1

nthclare wrote: »

It's definitely the wahabbism Sunni Saudi sect who are involved in radicalisation.

You don't hear of the average Sunnis Shias Suffis or Allawites behaving like the wahabbism shower.

Most Sunnis just want to get on in life too, but that wahabbism is down right nuts.

It takes a lot of reading and research about Islam to realise it's history, the division between the Shias and Sunnis

How the Christian crusaders were responsible for a lot of violence and upheaval too...

It's a broad subject...

The last Christian crusades did more damage to Christian countries Looted the Byzantine empire and practically destroyed Constantinople.
Anyway they started it in Spain.
What was the last one King Phillip of France in Egypt?

topper75

I don't know if we can go on pretending that they are just another group. The examination is fair and warranted.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Danzy wrote: »

Nor do they listen to calls to violence, hatred, supremacy, every week at Worship

You guys are far too extreme the other way. I’ve talked to plenty of observant Muslims who are tolerant of all faiths (and I do ask).

However there are radical mosques out there. Funded by our friends, the Saudis.

US foreign policy doesn’t help either and it’s fairly clear that the increase in radicalism goes hand in hand with actions in the Middle East. I’m not saying that the US is getting a reaction from the bombing of Syria or attacks on Assad - muslim radicals want Assad gone, whet I am saying is that US foreign policy uses Islamic radicalism where it needs to overthrow anti American secular dictatorships, and the blowback is in Europe.

ArchXStanton

Looks like the shinners had to flee too... Makes a change from the bloodshed their comrades caused

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/strasbourg-shooting-christmas-market-france-13721906.amp

Danzy

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You guys are far too extreme the other way. I’ve talked to plenty of observant Muslims who are tolerant of all faiths (and I do ask).

However there are radical mosques out there. Funded by our friends, the Saudis.

US foreign policy doesn’t help either and it’s fairly clear that the increase in radicalism goes hand in hand with actions in the Middle East. I’m not saying that the US is getting a reaction from the bombing of Syria or attacks on Assad - muslim radicals want Assad gone, whet I am saying is that US foreign policy uses Islamic radicalism where it needs to overthrow anti American secular dictatorships, and the blowback is in Europe.

The problem begins in mainstream mosques, I include Clonskeagh in that.

US foreign policy does not help but it is a bigger issue for non Muslims than Jihadis.

The head of Clonskeaghs parent fatwa council calls for Gays to be thrown off buildings, wife beating, suicide bombings against civilians and on and on.

He is probably the most influential Cleric in the Sunni world.

yoke

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s victim blaming. It also doesn’t really explain why it’s one particular group (generally radicalised Muslims) rather than Hindus, Chinese, Eastern Europeans, Africans, South Americans, even (in general) Turks in Germany that end up being responsible for these attacks. Nor are all the attackers poor.

If western society is, however, so racist as to incite violence from immigrants from certain areas then maybe some levels of immigration control are necessary.

So I actually knew a Chinese guy who had become so unconsciously radicalised by racism he experienced here in Dublin that he was an absolute nutjob when dealing with white people in general, he wasn’t a terrorist but I can fully imagine if he ever went back to any position of power in China, he’d probably start a war or something.

I also know of a Hindu guy who went to Australia for a few months, he hated it there due to the racism he experienced and went back to India. He’s now a mayor of a small town there (small town of probably only 1 million people or something), he’s gone extremely right wing from what little i’ve seen and I wonder why.

So some percentage of the Hindus and the Chinese do also get radicalised, it’s just that they don’t need to join terrorist groups, a lot of them end up going back to India/China and spreading hatred and distrust over there.

This is exactly what starts wars, xenophobia started the last world war and i’m afraid we haven’t learned a thing. The EU was a good attempt to be inclusive and stop war, unfortunately the current populations haven’t educated themselves on how bad war is and that creating a “them and us” situation always leads to war in the long term

Sonics2k

Here's what really get's me about this whole thing.

So, so often in the cases of these shootings the culprit is known to the police. Far too often they don't make a move on the person as they're hoping to get the ringleaders or higher up members of these terrorist organisations.

These killings could have been stopped had the authorities taken action sooner and locked this guy up.

It's also very wrong to say "send him back where he came from", because extremely often we find out the person happens to be born and raised in the area and is not a migrant. They are often the children of happily settled migrants who have never, and would never, commit these kinds of atrocities.

I have no issue with migrants or refugees who come here to work, but honestly I say string up the terrorists and to hell with their rights.

Franz Von Peppercorn

yoke wrote: »

So I actually knew a Chinese guy who had become so unconsciously radicalised by racism he experienced here in Dublin that he was an absolute nutjob when dealing with white people in general, he wasn’t a terrorist but I can fully imagine if he ever went back to any position of power in China, he’d probably start a war or something.

I also know of a Hindu guy who went to Australia for a few months, he hated it there due to the racism he experienced and went back to India. He’s now a mayor of a small town there (small town of probably only 1 million people or something), he’s gone extremely right wing from what little i’ve seen and I wonder why.

These stories seem somewhat suspect, my oh is brown and doesn't think we are racist but it's a leafy suburb and she doesn't really take public transport etc.

I am not PC but this kind of thing does need dealing with.

yoke

Danzy wrote: »

The problem begins in mainstream mosques, I include Clonskeagh in that.

US foreign policy does not help but it is a bigger issue for non Muslims than Jihadis.

The head of Clonskeaghs parent fatwa council calls for Gays to be thrown off buildings, wife beating, suicide bombings against civilians and on and on.

He is probably the most influential Cleric in the Sunni world.

What drives people to join these idiots though?
I do agree that religious schools like this should be shut down, the same way that we shut down organisations that openly advocate racism or spread hatred etc. I don’t see any difference here.

p1akuw47h5r3it

yoke wrote: »

Do you know what internment is?

internment:
the state of being confined as a prisoner, especially for political or military reasons.

Republicans had an end goal which was unacceptable to the British people.
The British looked at why young northern Irish people were becoming republicans, and addressed the source of the problem (admittedly, the process isn’t complete and Northern Ireland is still not great regarding sectarianism, but better than it was).

Maybe we should be looking at what is fueling the rise of young people of foreign descent in countries like France and Germany and Sweden in taking up radical Islam or similar stupid ideologies which actually mirror the ideologies of who they hate (hint: all 3 countries have major problems with racism)

No they ****ing don't. Total and complete bollocks.
And even if they did, you don't see young black non-Muslims going on shooting/stabbing rampages.

TomSweeney

My brother is a lefty lunatic, and his response to these attacks is always the same.


But look how much people pollution kills every year !

Way more than terrorism - he's right points negated completely :mad:

Danzy

Sonics2k wrote: »

Here's what really get's me about this whole thing.

So, so often in the cases of these shootings the culprit is known to the police. Far too often they don't make a move on the person as they're hoping to get the ringleaders or higher up members of these terrorist organisations.

These killings could have been stopped had the authorities taken action sooner and locked this guy up.

It's also very wrong to say "send him back where he came from", because extremely often we find out the person happens to be born and raised in the area and is not a migrant. They are often the children of happily settled migrants who have never, and would never, commit these kinds of atrocities.

I have no issue with migrants or refugees who come here to work, but honestly I say string up the terrorists and to hell with their rights.

There are so many people who are credible risks they can't monitor them all.

Have the army, 600k men, all thebpokice just monitor high risk people, it will not come close to cover all of them.

A British police force commander asked about the 20k high risk fanatics in Britain, replied he had that many alone in his own City. Think he was Birmingham.

weldoninhio

Danzy wrote: »

There are so many people who are credible risks they can't monitor them all.

Have the army, 600k men, all thebpokice just monitor high risk people, it will not come close to cover all of them.

A British police force commander asked about the 20k high risk fanatics in Britain, replied he had that many alone in his own City. Think he was Birmingham.

Easily monitored if you round them all into an internment camp.

yoke

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

These stories seem somewhat suspect, my oh is brown and doesn't think we are racist but it's a leafy suburb and she doesn't really take public transport etc.

I am not PC but this kind of thing does need dealing with.

Stories seem suspect? So you don’t believe that some of the Hindus or Chinese people who experience racism/hatred in the west would get radicalised, go back to India/China and spread racism/hatred there against the west?

Send me a PM if you are serious and you really don’t believe me

RandomName2

seamus wrote: »

So what's your answer?

Nation states, particularly western democracies, don't work well with large minorities (I really mean a small number of large minorities, rather than a large number of small minorities). The whole reason for separate states existing is because people view themselves as belonging to inherently separate groups.

The only solution is to not have those large minorities emerge in the first place, or if they do exist, try and erode the barriers that make them minorities. If religion is a common division, promote secularism; if class is a common division, promote social inclusion.

Danzy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Easily monitored if you round them all into an internment camp.

Hundreds of thousands in a camp, it would be a small city, locked up for life and a continuing influx every day.

I'm not saying it is not an option. It may be an inevitably.

yoke

weldoninhio wrote: »

Easily monitored if you round them all into an internment camp.

Hahaha

weldoninhio

Danzy wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands in a camp, it would be a small city, locked up for life and a continuing influx every day.

I'm not saying it is not an option. It may be an inevitably.

Wouldn't have to be the one camp. One camp outside every major city. Zero tolerance policy within the camps. You don't follow the rules, solitary for a week.

Danzy

yoke wrote: »

What drives people to join these idiots though?
I do agree that religious schools like this should be shut down, the same way that we shut down organisations that openly advocate racism or spread hatred etc. I don’t see any difference here.

The religious obligation to jihad. The culture of What we view as extremist thinking that is mainstream in Mosques and at the heart of the religion.

Like a Christian group feeding the homeless because that is what Jesus wants, yet are small in number. This man is fulfilling the demands of Mohammed.

Few hardcore believers in both cases.

mikhail

Sonics2k wrote: »

Here's what really get's me about this whole thing.

So, so often in the cases of these shootings the culprit is known to the police. Far too often they don't make a move on the person as they're hoping to get the ringleaders or higher up members of these terrorist organisations.

(a) They often don't have anything to actually charge them with, so they'll wind up letting them go a day later. This is how you get lawyers arguing in court that their client has been victimised - repeatedly arrested over nothing.

(b) They watch loads of people who don't really do anything. Empowering them to arrest them anyway is how you wind up with a police state. Considering some of the ****e the guards have gotten up to here without those powers, I'm not keen on giving them more.

(c) If they don't wait and patiently watch who these people are dealing with they'll never find out about half of them. Why do you think they were watching him in the first place? Probably because he was in contact with some other suspicious people.

(d) They frequently do arrest once they have enough information and they've incriminated themselves. It's just that their failures are far more visible than their successes.