Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

Infoanon

Looking at Moto GP their concessions rule has really helped.simply put ,the teams that are not winning/ getting podiums can test as much as they want,change engines /engine specs etc with the result that 4 of the 6 manufacturers now challenge for wins and in all likelihood that will become 5 in the not to distance future.

Imagine what Renault or Honda could achieve. ....

Debub

On the highlights package on C4 Vettel was asked how to make the sport better, he had a few suggestions, let me see if I can get hold of the video somewhere. He basically wants less complicated cars and less transparency of information/data

TCP/IP

Infoanon wrote: »

Looking at Moto GP their concessions rule has really helped.simply put ,the teams that are not winning/ getting podiums can test as much as they want,change engines /engine specs etc with the result that 4 of the 6 manufacturers now challenge for wins and in all likelihood that will become 5 in the not to distance future.

Imagine what Renault or Honda could achieve. ....

This is a great idea did not know about this rule in MotoGP. Also ban pay drivers would be a great idea if you are good enough you will get a drive. Look at Ocon disgrace he does not get a drive and you get seat blockers like Kubica and Stroll taking up seats.

kksaints

TCP/IP wrote: »

This is a great idea did not know about this rule in MotoGP. Also ban pay drivers would be a great idea if you are good enough you will get a drive. Look at Ocon disgrace he does not get a drive and you get seat blockers like Kubica and Stroll taking up seats.

The problem with this idea is that there are a number of teams and always has been that are basically kept afloat by pay drivers. I don't want to see the grid go below 20 cars, anything less than 10 teams makes the grid look small and also makes it harder for drivers to stay in the sport.

Also what defines a pay driver and what quality metrics would you use? For example if we were to look at best performance in the last few seasons. Stroll has had better individual performances and results than other better rated drivers. I won't deny that his qualification performances are atrocious.

antodeco

They should take a leaf out of FE and allow an activation zone, that will allow you to use a higher rate of fuel for x amount of laps. Make it mandatory that each driver has to use it. Would be good for drivers trying to attack or defend.

the_pen_turner

Infoanon wrote: »

Looking at Moto GP their concessions rule has really helped.simply put ,the teams that are not winning/ getting podiums can test as much as they want,change engines /engine specs etc with the result that 4 of the 6 manufacturers now challenge for wins and in all likelihood that will become 5 in the not to distance future.

Imagine what Renault or Honda could achieve. ....

Great idea

I would also allow the lower teams to fix their cars and get back out during the race. Obviously not going to work in a big crash but for small stuff it would help them gain testing.

Or allow them to change parts and make changes if they want. The likes of William's isn't going to get points anyway so stopping and making changes might help them. They cant afford proper testing days etc so may as well get the most out of the race

AMKC

All I can say is lets hope Liberty Media are reading this thread because they seem to have run out of ideas themselves. They started of great promising loads and done a few things like the entertainment at races and some other small things but that can only do so much and has no real effect on the racing.

I think the smaller teams should be allowed to bring aero developments to all races and the big teams only to four or five races that way it would be fairer. This could be looked at and revised every 6 months to a year.

meeeeh

TCP/IP wrote: »

This is a great idea did not know about this rule in MotoGP. Also ban pay drivers would be a great idea if you are good enough you will get a drive. Look at Ocon disgrace he does not get a drive and you get seat blockers like Kubica and Stroll taking up seats.

That won't work. Small teams need drivers who brig their own sponsors. No midfield driver, no matter how talented, is good enough to offset millions in sponsorship money.

AMKC

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Great idea

I would also allow the lower teams to fix their cars and get back out during the race. Obviously not going to work in a big crash but for small stuff it would help them gain testing.

Or allow them to change parts and make changes if they want. The likes of William's isn't going to get points anyway so stopping and making changes might help them. They cant afford proper testing days etc so may as well get the most out of the race

Agreed that should be allowed.

Maybe suspensions if one of the lower drivers cars suspension got broke and it it could be fixed relatively quickly they should be let do it.

Actually I think If any drivers car got damaged by someone else they should be allowed come in a fix it if possible but if its there own fault like hitting a barrier or going onto a runoff area then its hard look except for the teams like Williams who lets face it are not going to be scoring points anytime soon anyway.

muckwarrior

Infoanon wrote: »

Looking at Moto GP their concessions rule has really helped.simply put ,the teams that are not winning/ getting podiums can test as much as they want,change engines /engine specs etc with the result that 4 of the 6 manufacturers now challenge for wins and in all likelihood that will become 5 in the not to distance future.

Imagine what Renault or Honda could achieve. ....

I have a vague recollection of a system like that being in place a decade or so ago. A few of the lower placed teams got an extra practice session on the Friday or something like that. There certainly needs to be something in place to help level the playing field.

jv2000

muckwarrior wrote: »

I have a vague recollection of a system like that being in place a decade or so ago. A few of the lower placed teams got an extra practice session on the Friday or something like that. There certainly needs to be something in place to help level the playing field.

I also agree that a MotoGP type system is the way forward for F1. I see two major problems though.
1. There are not as many engine manufacturers as in MotoGP so this could be a problem, a concessions system though may be just enough to convince Porsche etc to enter F1 and build over a short time period (possibly over 2 years to become a serious entry).
2. Mercedes and Ferrari will probably threaten to leave the sport if this is even suggested

TCP/IP

Perhaps the smaller teams are also a problem for F1 I mean perhaps some should be let go as they will never compete in Modern F1 and to compensate let the larger teams run a 3rd car that is only for up and coming drivers not paid ones.

pjohnson

muckwarrior wrote: »

I have a vague recollection of a system like that being in place a decade or so ago. A few of the lower placed teams got an extra practice session on the Friday or something like that. There certainly needs to be something in place to help level the playing field.

It was a 3rd car in practice for any team outside the top 4 the previous year. Sauber refused citing costs but all others did. Think it was 03 - 05.

TCP/IP

meeeeh wrote: »

That won't work. Small teams need drivers who brig their own sponsors. No midfield driver, no matter how talented, is good enough to offset millions in sponsorship money.

Then perhaps it’s time for these small teams to leave F1.
There is absolutely no point in having a team like Williams for example no point in living in the past but garage teams like Williams should not be in F1.

pjohnson

TCP/IP wrote: »

Perhaps the smaller teams are also a problem for F1 I mean perhaps some should be let go as they will never compete in Modern F1 and to compensate let the larger teams run a 3rd car that is only for up and coming drivers not paid ones.

Nah we dont need to loose any team. I'd be inclined to say keep the cap on re. Maximum of fuel but allow refueling. It might give the strategists something to do and offset the boring that occurs when that "tyre management" shíte kicks in.

Adamocovic

It's a shame this year is looking to be quite dull in terms of racing at the top. Possibly one of the worse.

Looking back at the last 6 seasons opening races the Mercs have completely dominated. Think we got false hope last year that Ferrari were back. Hard to see anyone stopping them, I know teams want the tyres to switch back to the ones where Mercs have blistering issues which goes to show how much ahead they are. Surely won't happen.

It's depressing stuff as a race fan, made even more so with how much they are leaps and bounds ahead.

Pole Race Winners
Mercedes Ferrari Redbull Other Mercedes Ferrari Redbull Other
2019 6 2 0 0 8 0 0 0
2018 3 4 1 0 3 3 2 0
2017 6 2 0 0 4 3 1 0
2016 7 1 0 0 7 0 1 0
2015 8 0 0 0 7 1 0 0
2014 7 0 0 1 7 0 1 0


At least in the previous Merc dominance we were given a Rosberg/Hamilton rivalry that gave us entertainment but it's hard to have much hope this year. Also there was some shuffling on the podiums. It's nearly a given it's a Merc 1 2 these days.

Despite my defence of him and his great qualy pace but in most races he's looked far behind, yet far ahead of the other teams.

I'll still hold out hope that Bottas can make some sort of challenge and give us something to watch but it's looking very grim..

pjohnson

TCP/IP wrote: »

Then perhaps it’s time for these small teams to leave F1.
There is absolutely no point in having a team like Williams for example no point in living in the past but garage teams like Williams should not be in F1.

So no Red Bull, McLaren, Toro Tosso, Racing Point or Alfa Romeo either.....sounds exciting. F1 needs teams.

Jordan 199

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'll still hold out hope that Bottas can make some sort of challenge and give us something to watch but it's looking very grim..

There's not a hope Bottas will make a championship challenge. No way.

TCP/IP

pjohnson wrote: »

So no Red Bull, McLaren, Toro Tosso, Racing Point or Alfa Romeo either.....sounds exciting. F1 needs teams.

No Red Bull and McLaren are very well funded teams so deserve to be in F1 no doubt about it. Alfa are equally well funded with the backing of a very large car company. I would say Toro Rossa and Racing Point bring very little to F1.

meeeeh

Garage teams are passionate about F1. Red Bull will be in F1 as long as it makes money and boosts brand recognition. Merc will be in it as long as they feel having an F1 team is more beneficial than having an LeMans or some other racing series team.

Remember when Honda suddenly decided they are leaving the sport? The only reason they survived was because they became garage team under Brown name. 'Alfa' are in it now but what happens if Fiat decide they need to invest that money into development of electric cars? Bmw left yet Sauber stayed. McLaren are using Toyota wind tunnel. Remember them? You need garage teams who won't leave the moment marketing strategy changes.

TCP/IP

meeeeh wrote: »

Garage teams are passionate about F1. Red Bull will be in F1 as long as it makes money and boosts brand recognition. Merc will be in it as long as they feel having an F1 team is more beneficial than having an LeMans or some other racing series team.

Remember when Honda suddenly decided they are leaving the sport? The only reason they survived was because they became garage team under Brown name. 'Alfa' are in it now but what happens if Fiat decide they need to invest that money into development of electric cars? Bmw left yet Sauber stayed. McLaren are using Toyota wind tunnel. Remember them? You need garage teams who won't leave the moment marketing strategy changes.

I understand where you are coming from but they are pointless there will always be large teams of course they will change over the years but these minnow teams are completely pointless in this day and age. Perhaps we should have promotion and relegation. So bottom two teams each year have to race in F2 the following year and the winner and second place in F2 get to race in F1. Understand they are completely different cars but surely there is away around this like part of the price of winning F2 is to get free engines and Tyres for the following year. At least it would make it exciting for the lower teams with something to actually fight for.

Frank Bullitt

Does anyone think we have reached a tipping point for F1 yet? At what stage will it really be D-Day for the teams and owners to do something?

Mercedes will never want to deliberately slow themselves down for the sake of it, if they win they get all the money and stats to go with it.

These quotes today fro Hamilton and Merc are PR 101

"Don't point fingers at the drivers, we don't write the rules,"

"We have nothing to do with money shifting, all that kind of stuff. You should put the pressure on the people at the head, who should be doing the job."

And from Wolff

"I hear you and from a fans' perspective I get it," he said, "but I think it's an unfair question because what would you do in our shoes? You would continue to push relentlessly for performance. It is what we do.

"But the fans see a race that is less enjoyable to watch."

Maybe they are right, and our issues are being misplaced and we shouldn't be pointing the fingers at them?

Or.

They have to realize they are the figureheads of the sport, these are who the fans turn up to watch, not Ross Brawn or Chase walking around the paddock. If there is to be real change it has to be from the teams, the catch (as there always is in F1) will be that they will only care for themselves in this.

The 2021 rules will end up being a joke at this rate too.

I am probably sounding like a broken record at this stage, but in the 20 odd years I've watched F1, this is bottom of the barrel stuff. It's a shame because clearly there are great drivers to be banging wheels, but managing tires, running minimal fuel and nursing the car as best they can...that's racing? Even Le Mans is not like that at all.

And then we have Hamilton racing towards all of Schumachers records without even breaking sweat. This is such a divisive subject and I will not dare touch it now (need to properly think about it). The manner in which he is doing it and has done with Merc, it just feels a tad hollow somehow. He arrived at Merc to a team that had already invested millions in the new rules and structure to clearly get a run at domination, this is not a stab at Hamilton, but to compare that to Schumacher arriving at Ferrari in the state that it was in and to do what he did. My bias is clearly showing here too, to me Schumacher is the greatest to race a car so for me to judge this with a clear mind is probably not going to happen.

Rant over.

meeeeh

A driver will come who will beat Schumacher's records. It might be Hamilton it might be someone else. That doesn't diminish what Schumacher did neither does it mean Hamilton is as complete driver as him (imo). It does mean that I will have to stop watching F1 because Croft will be completely insufferable.

SharpshooterTom

Lewis Hamilton is going down as the GOAT. No iffs or buts about that.

Never underestimate the power of the British press and Bernie, they wont have it any other way.

The British are very good at marketing, they hype up all their products as the best in the world, premier league, wimbledon, golf open championship etc etc, and everyone else believes it.

They will push Hamilton as the GOAT, and on the UK forums I'm suggesting Schumacher is better than him causes a huge backlash, so you can see where this is going.

TCP/IP

The idea of Lewis as GOAT is laughable and something that only the British press will push because we all know that it simply is not the case.
Now if he stepped away from Mercedes and won a title or two with Ferrari I would change my mind.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2019/06/23/f1-crashes-to-lowest-tv-audience-of-the-year-on-britains-channel-4/#799641755230

Formula One’s audience on free-to-air television in Britain continued to crash at this month’s Canadian Grand Prix which had the lowest number of viewers of any race so far this season.

The Grand Prix, which takes place on an island in Montreal’s Saint Lawrence river, was the seventh consecutive race with a lower audience than last year and was watched by just 1.2 million TV viewers. It reversed by 5.1% on 2018 and although this isn’t as big as a drop as some of the other races experienced, it has still lost a staggering 74.4% of its audience since 2013 driven by a switch from showing live races to delayed highlights.

These are some scary numbers. Looks like there are multiple factors at play, but even still...

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

Does anyone think we have reached a tipping point for F1 yet? At what stage will it really be D-Day for the teams and owners to do something?

Mercedes will never want to deliberately slow themselves down for the sake of it, if they win they get all the money and stats to go with it.

These quotes today fro Hamilton and Merc are PR 101





And from Wolff


Maybe they are right, and our issues are being misplaced and we shouldn't be pointing the fingers at them?

Or.

They have to realize they are the figureheads of the sport, these are who the fans turn up to watch, not Ross Brawn or Chase walking around the paddock. If there is to be real change it has to be from the teams, the catch (as there always is in F1) will be that they will only care for themselves in this.

The 2021 rules will end up being a joke at this rate too.

I am probably sounding like a broken record at this stage, but in the 20 odd years I've watched F1, this is bottom of the barrel stuff. It's a shame because clearly there are great drivers to be banging wheels, but managing tires, running minimal fuel and nursing the car as best they can...that's racing? Even Le Mans is not like that at all.

And then we have Hamilton racing towards all of Schumachers records without even breaking sweat. This is such a divisive subject and I will not dare touch it now (need to properly think about it). The manner in which he is doing it and has done with Merc, it just feels a tad hollow somehow. He arrived at Merc to a team that had already invested millions in the new rules and structure to clearly get a run at domination, this is not a stab at Hamilton, but to compare that to Schumacher arriving at Ferrari in the state that it was in and to do what he did. My bias is clearly showing here too, to me Schumacher is the greatest to race a car so for me to judge this with a clear mind is probably not going to happen.

Rant over.

Problem is, what to do exactly? I read and hear all sort of ridiculous proposals - from weight penalties to reverse grids, from test allowance to unified aero, at this point it might as well be proposed that Hamilton race with Wolff straddling the airbox of the Mercedes and communication to the driver is only permitted in Klingon.



As someone pointed out above, you can't exactly undo progress; The problem is that the cars are basically frozen in performance relative to one another. If my car is 0.2s a lap slower than yours, then I'll stay within striking distance without ever actually being able to get ahead. The cars don't break down anymore, there hardly are surprises where a track proves to be utterly suiting a car and not another; The differences are minimal - even in Canada, in the end Hamilton was actually faster than Vettel.



Problem is that Mercedes have simply built a perfect, ruthless winning machine. Everything from the Engineering department to the strategy support, from the drivers management to political influence, has been designed, implemented and maintained with surgical precision. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out they've got the best toilette in the paddock as well. They quite simply have a stranglehold on the sport at a total level...not sure if anyone has noticed, but all of the organization cars have been Mercedes for two decades now. They've planned this for a long time.



Part of this is obviously the fault of the other main teams - Ferrari have regressed into "full Italian mode" wasting time and resources over internal bickering, failing not only to produce a true title challenge over a whole season but managing to fade politically as well; They've become a study case in "how NOT to run a team with absolute bollicksload of money".



Red Bull and McLaren both blamed third parties for their failures, they since swapped such third parties in what looks like a play on irony, but largely remained where they were. Renault seem to be on a generally upwards trajectory, but they're taking their dear time at that. The others...Alfa Romeo technically have now the resources to succeed, but it has to be seen if there's the political will; having them beating Ferrari wouldn't go down well in some CEO office in Turin.



As for the "dullness"...in absolute terms, the Ferrari dominance of the early 2000s was similar; The thing was that it was somewhat shorter and punctuated by a bit of more competitive seasons (like 2003) due to the tyre wars and the fact that Michelin were at times better then Bridgestone, allowing inferior chassis like Williams' and McLaren's to compete with Ferrari, albeit briefly.

muckwarrior

TCP/IP wrote: »

Then perhaps it’s time for these small teams to leave F1.
There is absolutely no point in having a team like Williams for example no point in living in the past but garage teams like Williams should not be in F1.

I can't quite find the words to articulate just how much I disagree with you so I'm just going to say NO!

Yer Da sells Avon

TCP/IP wrote: »

Then perhaps it’s time for these small teams to leave F1.
There is absolutely no point in having a team like Williams for example no point in living in the past but garage teams like Williams should not be in F1.

The biggest problem with that terrible idea is that someone always has to finish last - and if that someone is a car manufacturer, then their board will almost always pull the team out of F1. Look at Toyota, BMW and Honda - not to mention Renault, who seem to come and go as they please. And don't count on Mercedes being around forever either. The likes of Williams can tolerate poor results (for a while at least) because F1 is their raison d'être and they're desperate to improve. Far from getting rid of small teams, something needs to be done to make it possible for a modern-day Frank Williams to enter the sport.

Frank Bullitt

H3llR4iser wrote: »

As for the "dullness"...in absolute terms, the Ferrari dominance of the early 2000s was similar; The thing was that it was somewhat shorter and punctuated by a bit of more competitive seasons (like 2003) due to the tyre wars and the fact that Michelin were at times better then Bridgestone, allowing inferior chassis like Williams' and McLaren's to compete with Ferrari, albeit briefly.

I was thinking about this as well. At least in the early 2000's the tracks were at least interesting, and we had the glory of the V10s to at least listen to, the cars looked so much better without all the aero wings and bits, and it was free to watch on TV. Grandstands were packed as well.

Now, we have Sochi...Abu Dhabi...and tarmac run off areas that go for miles.

My rose tinted glasses are showing here though.