Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

Rossi IRL

Wasn't Bianchi also speeding under a double waved yellow.

A lot of factors involved in that incident. Blaming one thing is silly.

d8491prj5boyvg

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Wasn't Bianchi also speeding under a double waved yellow.

A lot of factors involved in that incident. Blaming one thing is silly.

Bianchi speeding (like any other driver would tbh) because of no safety car*. No safety car because race control would have had to red flag the race. Red flag required in the event of delay because of late start. Late start because of pressure to change time to suit western audience.

*No safety car also resulted in digger in run off area when cars were flying past at reasonably high speed (and, of course, higher speed than they should have been)

It all boils down to organisational pressure to suit western TV audiences in the end.

Adamocovic

Payton Low Corkscrew wrote: »

Bianchi speeding (like any other driver would tbh) because of no safety car*. No safety car because race control would have had to red flag the race. Red flag required in the event of delay because of late start. Late start because of pressure to change time to suit western audience.

*No safety car also resulted in digger in run off area when cars were flying past at reasonably high speed (and, of course, higher speed than they should have been)

It all boils down to organisational pressure to suit western TV audiences in the end.

Like most of us say it's the combinations of many things not boiling down to one or two.

You can't just say it just boils down to organisational pressure to suit TV audiences with a late start. Stop me if I'm wrong but has the start time for the race not remained the same? 15:00 local time, and 6:00am GMT.

Of course the start time factored in with the track conditions, and fading light with the typhoon does result in the decision being a factor. And of course the delay at the beginning due to the water on the track.

Again. It's many contributing factors. Doesn't boil down to one thing.

d8491prj5boyvg

Adamocovic wrote: »

Like most of us say it's the combinations of many things not boiling down to one or two.

You can't just say it just boils down to organisational pressure to suit TV audiences with a late start. Stop me if I'm wrong but has the start time for the race not remained the same? 15:00 local time, and 6:00am GMT.

Of course the start time factored in with the track conditions, and fading light with the typhoon does result in the decision being a factor. And of course the delay at the beginning due to the water on the track.

Again. It's many contributing factors. Doesn't boil down to one thing.

Oh yeah, definitely think its a combination of factors in the end, but if you take one variable out of the equation, late start time, then it is highly unlikely it would have been during heavy rain, that a digger would have been on a live run off area, that bianchi would have been under pressure to be on the limit of a yellow flagged area.

You're right, the start time was the same. There was pressure to move it earlier though when news of the typhoon came through and that wasn't heeded.

Adamocovic

Payton Low Corkscrew wrote: »

Oh yeah, definitely think its a combination of factors in the end, but if you take one variable out of the equation, late start time, then it is highly unlikely it would have been during heavy rain, that a digger would have been on a live run off area, that bianchi would have been under pressure to be on the limit of a yellow flagged area.

You're right, the start time was the same. There was pressure to move it earlier though when news of the typhoon came through and that wasn't heeded.

I agree that how they handled the face was a huge factor, think they had a certain start window with the rain so not sure if earlier was possible.

Do believe they failed to act and on the concerns and demands of the drivers on the radio with many calling for them to suspend/stop the race.

Anyway I'll leave it at that for the Bianchi discussions. It worked out odd that this topic was raised during the French F1 week (Althought I know Monaco was closer to home for him)

supremenovice

We're getting towards contract silly season. I'm thinking Estaban Ocon better get his CV ready and start knocking on doors cause I can't see them kicking out Bottas now. I don't think he has sponsors money so Williams is out of the equation. Maybe take Grosjean's seat?

Darkglasses

supremenovice wrote: »

We're getting towards contract silly season. I'm thinking Estaban Ocon better get his CV ready and start knocking on doors cause I can't see them kicking out Bottas now. I don't think he has sponsors money so Williams is out of the equation. Maybe take Grosjean's seat?

Is Giovinazzi at risk too maybe? Would love to see Ocon get a drive for the rest of the year.

supremenovice

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion. If you took out Bottas and put in either of Ocon, Magnusson, Sainz, Kimi, Perez, Kyvat - they'd all get similar results to him I reckon. Good but nothing special.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion, similar to Magnusson, Kyvat, Kimi, Perez, Sainz and Bottas. They all do a job for ya but nothing brilliant.

Something wrong with that comment.
3 world champions in this season
Kimi being one of them.

mickdw

Ocon is in a strange position. He has the full backing of Toto yet there is just nowhere to go.
He had to leave Racing point and Williams is not even worth going to realistically for the likes of him. Bottas is looking strong so it would be criminal to dump him so what does he do - leave mercedes camp? It's a tricky situation for him.

supremenovice

vectra wrote: »

Something wrong with that comment.
3 world champions in this season
Kimi being one of them.

Kimi was world champ 12 years ago. He was comprehensively beaten each of the four years he teamed with Vettel, who in turn is now rattled by Leclerc and was beaten fair and square by Danny Ric in 2014.
Kimi is a shadow of the driver he was back in the mid-noughties.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

Kimi was world champ 12 years ago. He was comprehensively beaten each of the four years he teamed with Vettel, who in turn is now rattled by Leclerc and was beaten fair and square by Danny Ric in 2014.
Kimi is a shadow of the driver he was back in the mid-noughties.

You are correct,
He was so bad last year he came 4th in the standings beating everyone bar the 2 mercs and his team mate << who he was only allowed to support.
He also beat Hamilton and Vettel in the US grand prix 2018
Not bad for someone that as you say is only a shadow of his former self.:pac:

El_Duderino 09

Darkglasses wrote: »

Is Giovinazzi at risk too maybe? Would love to see Ocon get a drive for the rest of the year.

Ocon is basically a Mercedes man so you're basically looking at him getting in one of the Mercedes powered cars. It's possible he could get in another car but it's not likely. Fact is people like Kubica and stroll are taking up space on the grid as pay drivers (and miles off the pace) where a decent driver like Ocon could be getting a chance.

supremenovice

vectra wrote: »

You are correct,
He was so bad last year he came 4th in the standings beating everyone bar the 2 mercs and his team mate << who he was only allowed to support.
He also beat Hamilton and Vettel in the US grand prix 2018
Not bad for someone that as you say is only a shadow of his former self.:pac:

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

meeeeh

Kimi clocked out years ago. I suspect he is still in F1 because he didn't find anything else to do that would interest him.

That being said Ferrari won't use Sauber to keep Merc's drivers race ready. Ocon won't replace Kimi.

El_Duderino 09

supremenovice wrote: »

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion. If you took out Bottas and put in either of Ocon, Magnusson, Sainz, Kimi, Perez, Kyvat - they'd all get similar results to him I reckon. Good but nothing special.

Sainz, Kimi and Kvyat are hardly in the same league as the others above. Magnussen has a quality but is inconsistent. Perez is decent.

But Bottas is driving really well this year. I think he's one of the very top drivers at the moment. Well above the likes of Sainz, Kimi and Kvya.

supremenovice

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

Hamilton and Verstappen are the best drivers on the grid. If the season comprised of all drivers driving a Mercedes, then these two would fight out the Championship. Max has taken another step forward this year and is pommeling the once highly rated Gasly. Ricciardo, Vettel and Leclerc are all very good...sometimes. Leclerc could join the elite over time, but hes not there yet. All three drivers would be beaten by Hamilton or Verstappen as team-mate (Ricciardo initially had the upper-hand on Verstappen but not last year.).
Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll and Giovinazzi will never win a grand prix (or a second in Kubica's case) or even beat their above-average team mates over a season.
As for the 'above averages' - they will never amount to much with the possible exception of Russell, who could be very good. Hulk is getting found out by Ricciardo. The rest have been exposed as decent drivers that would constantly beat each other but never the top two.
Bottas is driving well this season so far, and I hope he keeps it up, but he's already 5-2 down against Hamilton and I expect a similar gap by year end. Its laughable to think he was heralded as a 'like-for-like' swap with Rosberg a few years ago. Bottas has proven Rosberg was a great driver.

pjohnson

Actually what the feck happened in 2017 and how did Wehrlein get himelf the Sauber seat?

pjohnson

supremenovice wrote: »

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

Statistics will tell you Markus Winkelhock must be a great F1 driver as he is the only driver to have led in every race he started.

Adamocovic

supremenovice wrote: »

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

I'm a bit bias as I'm no fan of Verstappen but as talented as he is I think it's generous to put him up on his own with Hamilton as one of the elite drivers.

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes. Crashing aside I think one of the most recent was in Monaco when he forgot to change back his engine torque after his pit and was stuck in the wrong setting all race after.

He's hugely talented and has bags of potential, you can overlook the mistakes as he's still young but like I said in my view a bit generous to label him as one of the elites.

Also think it's a bit harsh to have Bottas as just above average. Talented driver who seems to have kicked it on this year.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

Who ever said that?

supremenovice

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'm a bit bias as I'm no fan of Verstappen but as talented as he is I think it's generous to put him up on his own with Hamilton as one of the elite drivers.

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes. Crashing aside I think one of the most recent was in Monaco when he forgot to change back his engine torque after his pit and was stuck in the wrong setting all race after.

He's hugely talented and has bags of potential, you can overlook the mistakes as he's still young but like I said in my view a bit generous to label him as one of the elites.

Also think it's a bit harsh to have Bottas as just above average. Talented driver who seems to have kicked it on this year.

The reason i put Bottas there is Rosberg. Rosberg was not consistently on Hamiltons level over their 4 years together, Id put him a level just below that with Vettel and Ricciardo, but he did win 22 grand prix as Hamiltons team mate, a stat that Bottas will never get near. Rosberg was a lot more competitive with Hamilton than Bottas was or ever will be, hence I put him another notch below that.

muckwarrior

Adamocovic wrote: »

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes.

This time last year I would have agreed, but in the past 12 months or so he's been exemplary.

eviltimeban

It's hard to know if its down to natural talent, or just getting the mix right - right driver, right team, right car, right boss, right time.

I'd say all the drivers are at least on a reasonably similar level; we are seeing times within tenths of each other, not seconds. Where it differs is how the driver slots into the team. Sometimes it doesn't work when it should, and sometimes it works when no one expects it to.

Those who stand out, stand out. Like Verstappen. Hamilton stood out from day one. Someone like Hulk puts the hours in but hasn't had the chance to stand out. Their own motivation and drive (no pun intended) are critical really.

Joeface

Honda Bringing 3 engine upgrades to France and Turbos( for all 4 I think). Only 3 as avoiding a penalty with Albon and taking one with Kyvatt.

Hopefully it adds something extra .

Frank Bullitt

supremenovice wrote: »

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

Hamilton and Verstappen are the best drivers on the grid. If the season comprised of all drivers driving a Mercedes, then these two would fight out the Championship. Max has taken another step forward this year and is pommeling the once highly rated Gasly. Ricciardo, Vettel and Leclerc are all very good...sometimes. Leclerc could join the elite over time, but hes not there yet. All three drivers would be beaten by Hamilton or Verstappen as team-mate (Ricciardo initially had the upper-hand on Verstappen but not last year.).
Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll and Giovinazzi will never win a grand prix (or a second in Kubica's case) or even beat their above-average team mates over a season.
As for the 'above averages' - they will never amount to much with the possible exception of Russell, who could be very good. Hulk is getting found out by Ricciardo. The rest have been exposed as decent drivers that would constantly beat each other but never the top two.
Bottas is driving well this season so far, and I hope he keeps it up, but he's already 5-2 down against Hamilton and I expect a similar gap by year end. Its laughable to think he was heralded as a 'like-for-like' swap with Rosberg a few years ago. Bottas has proven Rosberg was a great driver.

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

meeeeh

Gintonious wrote: »

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

Like Rosberg. Anyway Hamilton is an excellent driver but I think he was beaten three times by a different teammate. These comparisons often reflect driver preferences of the person compiling the list.

supremenovice

Gintonious wrote: »

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

Vettel has the speed but is mentally fragile. He has made far too many driver errors since he has been challenging Hamilton for the title since 2017. Even in his Red Bull days, when the pressure was on, he cracked.

meeeeh wrote: »

Like Rosberg. Anyway Hamilton is an excellent driver but I think he was beaten three times by a different teammate. These comparisons often reflect driver preferences of the person compiling the list.

There have been numerous races in his career where Hamilton hasn't turned up for one reason or another, but in the past couple years particularly, his game is to a level now where he is at almost 100% every race, every qualifying session. He is the best qualifier, the best wet weather driver, the best passer, the coolest under pressure, despite his whinging on the radio. And, believe it or not, I'm a Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari fan but I can not ignore what I see on screen every two weeks - Hamilton has the mental edge over him. As hard as it is for me to say - Hamilton is the best driver in F1 and one of the greatest of all time. Vettel, Rosberg - great champions in their own right, and Rosberg is possibly the most under-rated champ in history, but I can not put them up on the same level as Hamilton.

Frank Bullitt

supremenovice wrote: »

Vettel has the speed but is mentally fragile. He has made far too many driver errors since he has been challenging Hamilton for the title since 2017. Even in his Red Bull days, when the pressure was on, he cracked.



There have been numerous races in his career where Hamilton hasn't turned up for one reason or another, but in the past couple years particularly, his game is to a level now where he is at almost 100% every race, every qualifying session. He is the best qualifier, the best wet weather driver, the best passer, the coolest under pressure, despite his whinging on the radio. And, believe it or not, I'm a Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari fan but I can not ignore what I see on screen every two weeks - Hamilton has the mental edge over him. As hard as it is for me to say - Hamilton is the best driver in F1 and one of the greatest of all time. Vettel, Rosberg - great champions in their own right, and Rosberg is possibly the most under-rated champ in history, but I can not put them up on the same level as Hamilton.

You are conveniently skipping over the races that he absolutely dominated, and also there was Monza 2008. Every driver has their cracks, Hamiltons showed up more in 2007, and 2011 was riddled with them too.

mickdw

Hamilton out in front is untouchable. Hamilton in an average car back in the pack does not shine.